That's for the Americans. The superhornet all costs considered would cost around 250 mil$
>In November 2016 the US State Department approved the sale of up to 40 Super Hornets (32 F/A-18Es and eight F/A-18Fs) for Kuwait, valued at USD10.1 billion (including related equipment and support). Once in KAF service, the Super Hornets will
around 60m flyaway price is just the aircraft. Same as the rafale is around 105m flyaway.
You used an old janes link that is broken, so I can't comment on it. However....
Package price includes everything, Training, sims, spares, tools, missiles, pods etc.
The Government of Kuwait has requested to purchase thirty-two (32) F/A-18E aircraft, with F414-GE-400 engines; eight (8) F/A-18F aircraft, with F414-GE-400 engines; eight (8) spare F414-GE-400 engines and twenty-four (24) engine modules; forty-one (41) AN/APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radars; forty-four (44) M61A2 20mm Gun Systems; forty-five (45) AN/ALR-67(V)3 Radar Warning Receivers; two hundred and forty (240) LAU-127E/A Guided Missile Launchers; forty-five (45) AN/ALE-47 Airborne Countermeasures Dispenser Systems; twelve (12) AN/AAQ-33 SNIPER Advanced Targeting Pods; forty-eight (48) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS); forty-five (45) AN/ALQ-214 Radio Frequency Counter-Measures Systems; forty-five (45) AN/ALE-55 Towed Decoys; forty-eight (48) Link-16 Systems; eight (8) Conformal Fuel Tanks; and fourteen (14) AN/ASQ-228 ATFLIR Systems. Also included in the sale are ARC-210 radio (aircraft); Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) systems; AN/AVS-9 Night Vision Goggles (NVG); Launchers (LAU- 115D/A, LAU-116B/A, LAU-l 18A); Command Launch Computer (CLC) for Air to Ground Missile 88 (AGM-88); ANAV/MAGR GPS Navigation; Joint Mission Planning System (JMPS); aircraft spares; Aircraft Armament Equipment (AAE); support equipment; aircrew/maintenance training; contractor engineering technical service; logistics technical services; engineering technical services; other technical assistance; contractor logistics support; flight test services; storage and preservation; aircraft ferry; Repair of Repairable (RoR); support systems and associated logistics; training aides and devices; spares; technical data Engineering Change Proposals; avionics software support; software; technical publications; engineering and program support; U.S. Government and contractor engineering; technical and logistic support services. The estimated total program cost is $10.1 billion.
No doubt in your old age, dementia induced delusion. You think the IAF comes to this forum. To check on a poll. To see what they should buy.
How many of those votes, were from fake accounts that you made?
My personal opinion is that India is between a rock and a hard place. 4th gen isn't what they need. They aren't going to get the F-35, because of Russia, as I see it. I think they should join with France, germany and Spain in the FCAS. Germany may be the hard one to get onside. Korea is another possibility, that is moving ahead and will soon be available. A partnership between india and korea isn't silly.
As I remarked before, the shifting of goal posts has commenced in earnest. I'd get to that in a moment. Meanwhile, let's see now, we're expected to believe that the GoI thru the MoD has no role whatsoever in this or any project the IAF undertakes.
The IAF is, of course, an authority unto itself whose word is final & the law on all matters air worthy & that the GoI is merely a rubber stamp or not even that as per RST here. That little essay Resident Story Teller penned is proof of it & another feather in his cap reminding us once more why story telling is a gift & not everyone possesses the gift of the gab.
But the thing here is there are other story tellers in the business who not only are much better than RST here but do this for a living & have their credibility to maintain unlike RST, which often gets assailed even if they slip up the least again unlike RST here who shamelessly plods on & who therefore take great care not to embellish their stories too much again unlike RST here who has no such qualms nor constraints except how potent 8 pm has been which dictates how spicy the story he narrates will be. And we all know RST rarely disappoints in this category.
Here's what Rajat Pandit one such story teller has to write :
India will go in for the multi-billion dollar joint development and production of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) with Russia only if there is full-scale transfer of technology as well as "benefits" for the indigenous effort to build a futuristic stealth fighter.
Defence ministry sources say this decision has been taken at the "highest levels" in order to "not repeat the mistakes" of the entire Sukhoi-30MKI jet acquisition programme from Russia, which cost India Rs 55,717 crore without any tangible help in developing indigenous fighter-manufacturing capabilities.
But IAF has been unhappy with the Russian FGFA called Sukhoi T-50 or PAK-FA because the jet lacks proper stealth and its engine does not have "enough thrust", which are among 43 critical modifications or shortcomings it pointed out earlier.
India will go in for the multi-billion dollar joint development and production of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) with Russia only if there is full-scale transfer of technology as well as "benefits" for the indigenous effort to build a futuristic stealth fighter.
m.economictimes.com
Here's what another seasoned story teller from The Diplomat has to say :
For the past two years, the IAF has repeatedly stated its desire to withdraw from the program citing disagreements over cost sharing plans, technology transfers, and the aircraft’s technological capabilities, among others (See: “India Wants Out of 5th Generation Fighter Jet Program With Russia”).
India has reportedly withdrawn from a 11-year joint program to develop a 5th generation fighter jet with Russia.
thediplomat.com
Here's what another master story teller Ajai Shukla has to write :
Now, the IAF has backed away from the FGFA because it argues the PAK-FA — which Sukhoi has been test-flying since January 2010 — is not stealthy enough for a fifth-generation combat aircraft.
Aerospace analysts who support the PAK-FA reject this argument. They point out that the US Air Force F-22 Raptor, was built with an extraordinary degree of stealth, but that proved to be counterproductive, since it resulted in high maintenance and life-cycle costs. Burned by that emphasis on stealth alone, US designers de-emphasised stealth while building their latest fifth-generation fighter, the F-35 Lightning II. Instead, they focused on building its combat edge through better sensors, highly networked avionics and superior long-range weapons.
National Security Advisor (NSA) Ajit Doval tells Russian delegation at "Defence Acquisition Meeting" that India shelving $8.63 billion deal to improve PAK-FA with IAF's requirements. Find latest updates on India Russia defence deal.
www.business-standard.com
Please note that multiple sources reported almost identical issues the IAF flagged namely the IAF was disappointed with the design which they deemed inadequate aa stealth apart from the engine powering the FA unlike what RST would have us believe that the IAF was satisfied with the project & that the decision to abandon & not cancel the project was "taken by GoI under external pressure , " possibly American , whereas the same GoI withstood US pressure to go in for the Russian built S-400.
So, as we see, the original contention of RST of the IAF - HAL team "being part of the design process " got abandoned or as we've seen here multiple times got over ridden by other better stories pretty early on with RST proposing to instruct us on how do typical Indian programs of this nature proceed , another example of what we've seen innumerable times in the past namely " goal post shifting. "
Watch out for how he'd use the example of the entire process of PDP of the TEDBF to justify "the IAF - HAL team being part of the design team of the PAKFA" later on .
This is one of the reasons I keep returning to Strat Front. I mean you won't find such vaudeville performers in any forum defense or otherwise ever who keep returning to their mistakes, never acknowledging or learning from it & in the process provide wholesome entertainment. Quite a few characters here conforming to this norm with RST leading the pack by miles .
It was IAF which opted out. Because they wanted first to invest on MRFA. And then buy off the shelf Su-57M when mature.
And AM S. Varthman(father of Abhinandan) reviewed the entire project along with RCS and future engines and he gave a go ahead. Had IAF and GOI followed his input, we wouldn't be currently getting outgunned by J-20. Period.
The CPFH figure for SH is questionable. The SH's is quoted to be as low as $12k or even $10k. The up to $20000 figure includes a lot of other things, the same as the F-16's $25000.
Yes but going up to $16,000 to $17,000 for the Rafale also includes a lot of extra stuff:
In 2019 our Minister of the Armed Forces estimated that the maintenance cost of the 147 French Rafales cost 611 million for the year which gives a cost per flight hour of 16626 € considering that the French Rafales have to fly 250 h per year. But this is a budgetary cost that includes everything, including the salaries of the military.
No doubt in your old age, dementia induced delusion. You think the IAF comes to this forum. To check on a poll. To see what they should buy.
How many of those votes, were from fake accounts that you made?
My personal opinion is that India is between a rock and a hard place. 4th gen isn't what they need. They aren't going to get the F-35, because of Russia, as I see it. I think they should join with France, germany and Spain in the FCAS. Germany may be the hard one to get onside. Korea is another possibility, that is moving ahead and will soon be available. A partnership between india and korea isn't silly.
???? I must have forgotten. Where have i said india should buy the Super Hornet? This comp dates back to 2007. Some 16 years later, with the same aircraft. India is still playing. Didn't you read what I wrote and requoted below? The world has moved on. I would also ask, why choose a Rafale? With 5th gen it's just a target, that will be decimated.
My personal opinion is that India is between a rock and a hard place. 4th gen isn't what they need. They aren't going to get the F-35, because of Russia, as I see it. I think they should join with France, germany and Spain in the FCAS. Germany may be the hard one to get onside. Korea is another possibility, that is moving ahead and will soon be available. A partnership between india and korea isn't silly.
???? I must have forgotten. Where have i said india should buy the Super Hornet? This comp dates back to 2007. Some 16 years later, with the same aircraft. India is still playing. Didn't you read what I wrote and requoted below? The world has moved on. I would also ask, why choose a Rafale? With 5th gen it's just a target, that will be decimated.
We need the rafale as well as the f-35. I personally feel they fill up two different roles. Most of the members won't agree but both of these fighters fill requirements that are unique to the IAF. I would add we need to the f-15EX too. But dreams can only be dreams.
Also we can easily get the f-35. The government will have to sacrifice a lot for that.
Yes but going up to $16,000 to $17,000 for the Rafale also includes a lot of extra stuff:
In 2019 our Minister of the Armed Forces estimated that the maintenance cost of the 147 French Rafales cost 611 million for the year which gives a cost per flight hour of 16626 € considering that the French Rafales have to fly 250 h per year. But this is a budgetary cost that includes everything, including the salaries of the military.
So we don't have a proper CPFH figure for the Rafale to compare with the SH. Because a lot of things cannot be transferred over to Indian conditions, like salaries. If we strictly go by the prices IAF paid for in terms of spares, then the Rafale won't be competitive with the SH, 'cause the Rafale M is most definitely more expensive than C. But you can see why we are looking at a very close contest.
I'm not really concerned about which jet is chosen. My main concern is GoI chooses the jet that provides the greatest battlefield effect. If the Rafale combined with the IN's fledgling ISR capabilities is able to match the SH's American network's multiplier effect, then I'm all for it, although I don't see that happening. Both IN and USN have shown no interest in high end performance, both are fine with crappy crippled jets as long as they have other qualities more commonly seen in dedicated strike jets and bombers. So the Rafale's performance advantages are less applicable to the IN, the same as the TEDBF.
The IAF didn't opt out of it. But yeah, the choice was between MRFA and FGFA and they chose MRFA. But they have delayed MRFA as well.
Back in 2019, the IAF claimed they were ready to request for an AoN. But I guess they decided to change many things as they learnt more about the Rafale and other developments, including AMCA, and the changes continued happening until the end of 2022. The J-20 also must have played a crucial role.
And AM S. Varthman(father of Abhinandan) reviewed the entire project along with RCS and future engines and he gave a go ahead. Had IAF and GOI followed his input, we wouldn't be currently getting outgunned by J-20. Period.
That stuff Ignorants posted is fake news peddled by an American shill. The problem is the IAF was never gonna go for the Su-57 with 117, the goal was always to get the first jet with Type 30. And this engine is nowhere near ready yet.
The IAF is outgunned by the J-20 because we didn't sign the Rafale deal in 2014.
In the event the IAF which is always alert to fake news coming out with their rebuttals promptly as observed in the F-35 case where the media carried news of India approaching the US for purchasing it which in turn was rebuffed by the the US , strangely never took a position in this case although multiple outlets carried practically the same story .
However , this was mostly about the IAF - HAL team being part of the design team of the PAKFA which makes one wonder if they were so proficient in designing that too 5th Gen FAs why on earth were they deputed to Moscow for training in the first place . Of course , this would be met either by silence now or a real tiring long winding circuitous explanation. Frankly I prefer the latter , where Resident Story Teller ties himself in knots & offers an easy target for kambal kutai.
I see it's Monday again , hence it's time for the old argument - Rafale > J-20 .
On Tuesdays , the narrative changes to we're screwed & the Rafales won't be upto scratch in it's encounters with the J-20 + J-16 combination.
But there's still 24 hrs for that narrative . In the meanwhile one's advised to enjoy this part of the weekly / biweekly / triweekly flip flop exercise.
Finally this is the only place I'm reading about the either Rafale or Su-57 story . I haven't come across any such narrative anywhere else. Frankly I don't know how did this story ever gain traction . The Su-57 vs AMCA I can understand but this .... ? It takes a real leap of imagination given that initiation of both these proposals happened in the early 2000s & the projected costs & numbers were known even then . If anything as these programs progressed we've seen a fall in numbers but there was never any talk then or now of this being an either or scenario.
Ironically , if anything , the AMCA which was supposed to have begun somewhere in the late 2010s while both these programs were in different stages of their execution was still on , albeit on the back burner & expected to face the axe given our participation in the PAKFA / FGFA program whose lessons were supposed to be carried forth here which suddenly received a filip courtesy MP & our dropping out of the Russian program.
Part of me says no F-35's for India for all the sht talking and should have to fight chyna with its 4th gen fighters which will not end well for IAF but if India does go for the F-35 these same sht talkers are going to have to eat a crap load of humble pie which will bring a lot of joy to me seeing them eat this pie.
Bar the F-22, 5th gen on a whole is not suitable for combat yet. It appears the Chinese will be the first to achieve some status here, and by 2025 or so they will be able to actually use it to its full effect, the jet will be about 8 years old by then.
Until the F-35 B4 is fully ready for use, it's gonna be inferior to the Rafale. To top that off, the Rafale has something the F-35 is yet to achieve, a combat proven status. Had we received enough Rafales from 2017 or 2018 onwards, we would have had all 126 by 2025, and most of the pilots on it would have been expert level with 1500 hours or more. Even without this advantage, the Rafale is still ahead of the F-35 due to its combat proven status, even if our Rafale pilots will only have half the required level to reach the expert status by 2025. Getting tech is one thing, but learning how to use the tech is an entirely different process and it takes years for pilots to train and figure out how it works and then actually use that in exercises, and then train all the other pilots in it. It's a 5-year process at the minimum.
This is something people don't easily get. Similar to the F-35, currently a white elephant, we also have an artillery gun called ATAGS which is now possibly amongst the most advanced guns in the world, if not the most advanced, but literally no one in the IA knows how to use it. The IA needs a handful of regiments to actually work with the gun, figure out its strengths and weaknesses before it's fielded in numbers. This is a multi-year process and could easily take half a decade before commanders have the confidence that the gun will work in the field, and another half a decade before numbers come in. This is when you need a proven gun to take to the field while the new advanced gun is made ready.
Both the US and India are stuck with white elephant projects while quite literally staring death in the face. You can bet that in case China does invade Taiwan over the next few years, the F-16 will have more of a part to play than the F-35, which is what makes the Rafale a far more important aircraft than the F-35 this decade.
The problem for India is neither the F-35 nor the Rafale can fight the J-20 head-on. So getting a proven jet is more important in order to achieve other missions while avoiding a direct confrontation with the J-20, the terrain and dispersion of forces allow that to happen. The F-16 and SH will play that part for the US.
So the F-35 inclusion which though it's handicapped has been on since 2016-17 onwards while the IAF which has been inducting the Rafales since 2019 will take upto a decade to get used to it but the PLAAF will take to J-20 like a fish to water.
The IA artillery will take upto a decade to figure out the pros & cons of ATAGS but they'd figure out the ATHOS like , yup you guessed it right , a fish takes to water . After all a cannon is truly a very complex piece of engineering up right there with a 5th Gen FA or an SSN / SSBN .
Every day I log on to Strat Front I learn something new .
Part of me says no F-35's for India for all the sht talking and should have to fight chyna with its 4th gen fighters which will not end well for IAF but if India does go for the F-35 these same sht talkers are going to have to eat a crap load of humble pie which will bring a lot of joy to me seeing them eat this pie.
Don't be conflicted sweetie. Come out of the closet & be you !!
The F-35 we'd get wouldn't be with all those bells & whistles your poodles would be getting . It'd be a stripped down version . For al you know there'd be little to distinguish it from Duhssault's Rafail . Hell if I think I know trailer park tramps half as well , they'd be a couple of notches below the Rafails.
Besides paying top dollar we'd be handing our balls to the US to squeeze whenever it gets the urge which means multiple kill switches , personnel sniffing up our people's a r s e s on our own bases , etc. It's like one of those devices you buy from Apple paying thru your nose . At the end of the day you can't tell if you've bought it or leased it .
So I think we're better off with known devils like the French or the Russkies. We'd stick to them .
Part of me says no F-35's for India for all the sht talking and should have to fight chyna with its 4th gen fighters which will not end well for IAF but if India does go for the F-35 these same sht talkers are going to have to eat a crap load of humble pie which will bring a lot of joy to me seeing them eat this pie.
We don't want the best aircraft. we want French, who will betray us like they did argentina. Or russian, whos best friend is China and is China's bitch. not a problem there, of course they will choose india over china..
We don't want the best aircraft. we want French, who will betray us like they did argentina. Or russian, whos new best friend is China and is China's bitch. not a problem there, of course they will choose india over china..
Pops , I mean , wth , you're a great person & a pal even if the joke's on you irrespective if you don't get many like all true Aussies . So instead of giving you a straight forward answer like I do to those not my pals , I'd give you this early 14th century couplet in Persian -
Hunooz , Dilli Door Ast !
I'm sure you're intelligent enough to know how to find out what it conveys .
It's a good thing Ignorants is Ignorants, so he gets schooled every other day and that indirectly helps others learn.
“Availability, serviceability and reliability will be huge issues. And these are issues which need to be considered. With respect to MMRCA, it should have come, it should have been operational by 2008. Now that we’ve delayed it so long and we’re boxing ourselves into a situation where again cost-factor will come into the picture, you’ve got to decide between FGFA and MMRCA if you’re going to spend 30 billion dollars each on each of the programs – and the country has to take a call. And the reason – the responsibility for this ‘boxing’ is not with the air force. Its with the country as a whole – its with the entire system as a whole. And that’s what you need to look at. Why have you allowed yourself to get boxed in like this?” – Air Marshal (retd) M Matheswaran
