MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 31 13.1%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 187 78.9%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.3%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.5%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 9 3.8%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 9 3.8%
  • Mig-35

    Votes: 1 0.4%

  • Total voters
    237
No harm in trying. IAF want the more capable A330 based AWACS. But the NETRA was a good project for us. It helped us overcome many problems of the steep learning curve in development of airbourne AESA radars.

Yep, the NETRA was very important for the development of future AWACS.

I believe Indonesia showed some interest in the NETRA some time back. With a scanning range of 475 kms that radar is a gem of a hardware and if it came with IAF's threat library, it will outdo anything in the market in this category, that's a big if though.

India won't give up the threat library. Indonesia is going to have to make their own.

If pitched well we might just get some orders. Given our history with defence exports, we shouldn't keep high hopes. Also exports are dificult if IAF isn't interested.

The DRDO radar itself is really good, but it still needs to be further developed in order to remove blindspots. For example, the Erieye provides 300-degree coverage while ours only does 240 degrees. The Israeli Eitam CAEW is even better than Saab's GlobalEye with full 360 degree coverage. The GlobalEye comes with a maritime radar as well, which is very beneficial to countries along the SCS.

Apart from superior capabilities, the Israelis and Swedes chose superior platforms. The Gulfstream 550 and Global 6000 are significantly superior to the C-295 in pretty much every way possible. Jet engine, higher service ceiling, faster speed, greater payload etc.

Only poor countries are going to accept a C-295 AWACS. The Israeli CAEW costs $400M while the Swedish one costs $300M. So we will have to price ours well below $200M to make something of it. So you can expect the kind of customers you will get for it.

But, maybe a decade down the line, it's a great option for giving them away to poor friendly countries like Afghanistan, Mauritius, Maldives etc that can enhance our own security, and also sell it to countries in Africa and South America where they are not competing with another major air force.
 
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There has been no such deal to replace the Embraer ERJ 145 with Falcon. The ERJ145 deal was stopped due to allegations of corruption. I don't think there will be any expansion of the NETRA AWACS fleet based on the ERJ airframe. Therefore DRDO is looking for an alternate platform. Looks like they found one :


Falcon is getting assembled..
C295 is getting signed since 4 years..
Airbus deal is no where in sight, after reading about some additional modifications needed to get required power.. I kinda lost hope..

And We need more AWACS..
 
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1 sq each of su30mki and mig29 coming ,order this october.Nothing much else.

Need repeat order of 36-54 rafales.
Begin upgrade of su30 in batches.
Sign tejas mk1a 83 units soon.
Add meteor to mirage2k.
No hope for mmrca 2.0.Another bureaucratic mess.Between all these commitments and economy expect nothing to move very soon.
Meteor on M2000 is not on the agenda (not even a first wind tunnel try). Dassault will never accept, and prefer keeping Meteor as a Rafale asset, so as to boost Rafale sales.
 
These are the excerpts from one of the thread about rafale from aviation forum.. as it is mentioned here spectra aided rafale to assign mica missiles passively without using it's radar.. how is it achieved?? Which mica it can guide?? Mica IR or RF.. as far as i know .. it can guide mica ir.. without using it's main radar.. However can spectra guide a mica RF or say meteor .. without using it's main radar??
What are the implications of not using the main radar i.e RBE 2AA while dogfighting.. does it means if a rafale switches off it's radar..no one can see it coming..not even awacs can detect it's presence?? How does it aids in dogfight.. is it viable or achievable..
What are it's pros nd cons?? Kindly give inputs.. thanks..

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Dassault Aviation’s vocational course at GITI Nagpur to train 105 students

Maharashtra government has given its go-ahead for the Dassault Aviation, manufacturer of Rafale jets, to start Aeronautical Structure and Equipment Fitter course for three academic years from August 2019 to July 2022 at the Government Industrial Training Institute (GITI) in Nagpur. The vocational course under Craftsman Training Scheme project will have an intake capacity of 105 students in three classes.

The course will be conducted on a self-financing project by Dassault Aviation, which has created the Dassault Skill Academy, will supply necessary equipment, raw material and qualified human resource. The state government issued notification on August 23 to pave way for the implementation of an MoU signed between the Dassault Aviation and the Union Ministry of Skill Development and Entrepreneurship. The state government will make available classes in GITI at Nagpur without disturbing the existing courses there. Initially, two classes will start operational this month. The state director of vocational education and training will sign MoU with Dassault Skill Academy to run the course under its corporate social responsibility. Nagpur has been chosen as the Dassault-Reliance facility is located there and the company has already kick-started production in February this year with the delivery of major components for the Falcon 2000 LX executive jets that are currently being assembled in France. The facility is assembling the cockpit and fuel tank parts for the popular executive jets.

As per the government notification, the project aims at creating and nurturing a ‘best-in-class’ pool of Indian talents from the public education system, for the benefit of the entire aerospace industrial ecosystem in India toward self-reliance in the design, development and production of aeronautical equipment and platforms. The necessary skill set will be made available in the aviation sector.

The admissions in the vocational course are being given through a central online system and fees will be charged similar to other courses being run in the ITI under the private-public-partnership. The government will not provide any financial assistance as the expenses will be incurred through fees recovered from the students.

The state director, vocational education and training will submit a report after three academic years to the state government which will take a call for the continuation of the project.

Dassault Aviation’s vocational course at GITI Nagpur to train 105 students
 
Yeh toh hona hee tha. But dont underestimate French. They will again *censored* it up due to greed.
Do you believe this news? It seems very unlikely to me: As much as I could believe that it was possible for India to buy 36 Rafale from us while waiting for MMRCA II to be finalized, I cannot believe that we could be bought 114 Rafale when that is why MMRCA II was launched.
 
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Do you believe this news? It seems very unlikely to me: As much as I could believe that it was possible for India to buy 36 Rafale from us while waiting for MMRCA II to be finalized, I cannot believe that we could be bought 114 Rafale when that is why MMRCA II was launched.
MMRCA-2 was launched to buy time. I had posted manytimes that Rafale as the sole platform had been decided long long back. I had even quoted a figure of over 220 for Rafale.
 
Do you believe this news? It seems very unlikely to me: As much as I could believe that it was possible for India to buy 36 Rafale from us while waiting for MMRCA II to be finalized, I cannot believe that we could be bought 114 Rafale when that is why MMRCA II was launched.

Until SPM was solidified, the plan was to simply order 90 Rafales from France without going through a tender process.

It was considered to be cheaper than a tender.

But GoI made a decision on SPM and they decided GTG for 90 will simply court controversy. This was just before Congress started their anti-Rafale campaign.

So expecting a GTG for 90 or 114 jets is quite realistic.
 
These are the excerpts from one of the thread about rafale from aviation forum.. as it is mentioned here spectra aided rafale to assign mica missiles passively without using it's radar.. how is it achieved?? Which mica it can guide?? Mica IR or RF.. as far as i know .. it can guide mica ir.. without using it's main radar.. However can spectra guide a mica RF or say meteor .. without using it's main radar??
What are the implications of not using the main radar i.e RBE 2AA while dogfighting.. does it means if a rafale switches off it's radar..no one can see it coming..not even awacs can detect it's presence?? How does it aids in dogfight.. is it viable or achievable..
What are it's pros nd cons?? Kindly give inputs.. thanks..

Both types of MICA can be guided. The seeker head affects how the missile can guide itself, but not how it can be guided by the aircraft.

Not using the main radar makes the aircraft harder to detect. But the aircraft can still be detected, of course; even stealth aircraft are detectable. It's like, at night, you can detect someone walking around with a flashlight quite easily, even if they're not flashing it right in your direction. Someone walking around at night with nightvision goggles will be harder to see from afar since they won't glow, but you can still find them.

If you're dogfighting, you're already detected anyway, so the point is moot. The advantage there isn't that you can turn your radar off, it's that you can cue missiles to targets that are outside of your radar's "sight".
 
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Both types of MICA can be guided. The seeker head affects how the missile can guide itself, but not how it can be guided by the aircraft.

Not using the main radar makes the aircraft harder to detect. But the aircraft can still be detected, of course; even stealth aircraft are detectable. It's like, at night, you can detect someone walking around with a flashlight quite easily, even if they're not flashing it right in your direction. Someone walking around at night with nightvision goggles will be harder to see from afar since they won't glow, but you can still find them.

If you're dogfighting, you're already detected anyway, so the point is moot. The advantage there isn't that you can turn your radar off, it's that you can cue missiles to targets that are outside of your radar's "sight".

Much appreciated.. thanks for replying.. However... is it not the case..when an aircraft uses it's radar.. it's presence would ultimately be known to adversary .. as there RWR would be going abuzz with radar echo... so it can ultimately break the lock with counter maneuvereing... Does using AESA radars in LPI mode helps any better.. to shoot down enemy.. with enemy not knowing where they are targeted from.

Also if rafale can employ surprise attack on enemy by using FSO-IT nd SPECTRA... Almost passively.. isn't a major strategy which can be employed?? suppose a scenario where two rafales close in to engage enemy fighters (with coordinates provided by AWACS) passively.. i.e without using their radar.. nd down the range of about 40-50km they can fire their mica ir, rf nd meteor with telemetry provided by FSO-IT nd SPECTRA.. thus catching enemy by surprise.. they will not even know what hit them...

Is it possible.. if yes then what are the counter strategy which enemy can employ to save it from such attacks.. (one being using IRST enabled aircraft nd AWACS)...
 
Much appreciated.. thanks for replying.. However... is it not the case..when an aircraft uses it's radar.. it's presence would ultimately be known to adversary .. as there RWR would be going abuzz with radar echo... so it can ultimately break the lock with counter maneuvereing... Does using AESA radars in LPI mode helps any better.. to shoot down enemy.. with enemy not knowing where they are targeted from.

Also if rafale can employ surprise attack on enemy by using FSO-IT nd SPECTRA... Almost passively.. isn't a major strategy which can be employed?? suppose a scenario where two rafales close in to engage enemy fighters (with coordinates provided by AWACS) passively.. i.e without using their radar.. nd down the range of about 40-50km they can fire their mica ir, rf nd meteor with telemetry provided by FSO-IT nd SPECTRA.. thus catching enemy by surprise.. they will not even know what hit them...

Is it possible.. if yes then what are the counter strategy which enemy can employ to save it from such attacks.. (one being using IRST enabled aircraft nd AWACS)...
another solution : a Rafale in back, using its AESA radar (and itself protected by the range of the Meteor...) and giving with L16 the datas to one or more Rafale, radar off, nearer so as to use their FSO to positively identify the target before firing if needed with MICA.
 
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Rafale 114 ..can it really be?:eek:
Isn’t it the best time? IAF badly needs new jets and after Balakot, public support is at it’s peak for IAF.
Plus current border conflict makes the case even stronger and after the disastrous impact of Rafale issue during last elections, opposition parties are highly unlikely to go for it again.
From IAF prospective, after canceling engine upgradation plan for Jaguars, the most effective option is to add more Rafales as quickly as possible.
Logically it makes sense to go for 114 Rafales right now through a G2G contract. Whether current financial condition will support it or not is a different topic.
 
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ITI Nagpur students to learn to assemble Rafale jets
The France-based Dassault Aviation, manufacturer of Rafale fighter jets, signed an agreement with the government- run ITI Nagpur last month for starting an 'Aeronautical Structure and Equipment Fitter' course at the institute.

NAGPUR: Students of the Industrial Training Institute (ITI) here in Maharashtra are all set to get a chance to learn how to assemble and fit body parts of the Rafale and Falcon aircraft, an official said on Tuesday.

The France-based Dassault Aviation, manufacturer of Rafale fighter jets, signed an agreement with the government- run ITI Nagpur last month for starting an 'Aeronautical Structure and Equipment Fitter' course at the institute.

"The students will get training in the assembly of aerostructure, cockpit fitting, wings fitting and body structure fitting of Falcon and Rafale aircraft at the DRAL unit here," ITI's principal Hemant Aaware told PTI.

The Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL), a joint venture between Dassault Aviation and Reliance Group, has a facility in MIHAN (Multi-modal International Cargo Hub and Airport at Nagpur) for the assembling of Falcon 2000 passenger planes and parts of Rafale jet.

Aaware said before this new programme, the ITI did not have any aviation-related course.

"During an industry-academic interaction, we requested DRAL to start an aviation-related course at ITI," he said.
The French aviation company and the ITI have jointly designed the syllabus of the two-year course, he said.

The French aviation company and the ITI have jointly designed the syllabus of the two-year course, he said.

A government resolution was issued last Friday for starting the course at the ITI here.

"We are planning to start the course this year itself with two batches of 21 students each in 2019-20. Besides, there will be one batch of 21 students in 2020-21 and two batches of 21 students each in 2021-22. There will be a total intake of 105 students for the course," Aaware added.

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/70859237.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
 
Final Assembly Line for Rafale and full Overhaul and Repair ToT, along with licence to Integrate all Indian and Israeli origin subsystems. And ToT on some things like AESA, Manufacturing and testing techniques. And then Joint venture to develop technologies required for AMCA.

Dream for now....😅
 
A year ago I published the translation of an internal document from Dassault and this seems premonitory to me today. The publication begins there:
MMRCA 2.0 - Update and discussion
But I'm going to republish it in a more compact way here.

The success of the Rafale in India is part of the Make in India initiative launched by Prime Minister Naranda Modi. From this contractual obligation, we make a strategic partnership with ambitious objectives: obtain new Rafale orders, gain competitiveness in business aviation, multiply projects in high technology. Our plant in Nagpur, in the centre of the country, will soon produce Falcon 2000 parts and sub-assemblies, then Rafale. We are creating a structure dedicated to civil and military engineering works in the Silicon Valley of Pune, near Bombay. We are studying R&D projects with the Indian Ministry of Defence. As you will read in the pages of this Special Make in India magazine, the members of the management committee, meeting in New Delhi in April, enthusiastically commit themselves to do everything possible to carry out, with their teams, these large-scale projects. I count on you as I count on them.

The main paragraphs are
  • Military support
  • Produce in India
  • A methodical quality approach
  • The local economic fabric in support
  • Close digital cooperation
  • India's land of conquest for the Falcons
  • Pilot in India a challenge for programme managers
  • Working in India a rewarding opportunity
  • Optimized digital monitoring in production
  • Development of intelligent air systems
With a futures market of 200 Rafale and production costs that place us at the heart of competition in the global civil market, the potential offered by India are as many reasons for us to succeed with our Make in India and to make our establishment in this country a complete success.

Training: accompanying our Indian partners

For the Indian government, Skill India, i.e. local education, is a necessary challenge for the country's economic development. For us and for the success of Make in India, it is therefore essential to accompany our customer by an adapted training.

Bruno Penot, head of the DGSM's training department, explains that "this programme could involve setting up an aeronautics department within an existing local school, the Governement Industrial Technical Institute (ITI), located in the Nagpur region, to train companions and technicians.

Today, the new challenge for our company is to develop an aeronautical professional baccalaureate program, to provide the DRAL joint venture with qualified and quality personnel. This ambitious project is perfectly in line with our client's industrial policy.

Produce in India

We are developing an aeronautical industrial sector in India to manufacture at the best cost, with the quality requirements expected by our civil and military customers, our Falcons 2000 as well as Rafale subassemblies and payload (pylons, pendular tanks).

Dedicated factory.

An aeronautical park, the Dhirubhai Ambani Aerospace park, located on the international airport of nagpur, will now host, on a site of 25 hectares, Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL) but also all our partners, including French SMEs which come to accompany the development of this industrial sector.
The new plant will start by assembling the Falcon 2000. The primary parts, components of these assemblies, will be subcontracted to Indian industry.

Stages of the project

Manufacturing transfers are organized in four stages.

The initial stage involves the assembly of the T1 section of the Falcon 2000 and its sub-assemblies, as well as sub-assemblies of the Rafale's moving parts, such as engine housings and control surfaces.

An initial Indian team of four production managers was trained in our methods in Biarritz for six months. A dozen companions have also received intensive training in assembly processes, provided in France by CODIFOR.

In the second quarter of 2019, a much larger building will allow the assembly of the T1 and T2 sections, then the splicing of the T12.
In the third quarter, production of the Rafale control surfaces will start in Nagpur.

The next stage is scheduled for the end of 2019 with the assembly of the horizontal plane, an additional section of the Falcon 2000 and the windscreens and skylights of the Rafale.

At the end of 2020, the third stage will begin. It will cover the junction of the fuselage sections, the layout (mattress assembly, cabin sealing, fluid and electrical circuit assembly) and the general assembly, the runway and the take off from Nagpur.

Finally, the last stage will begin in 2022 with the robotic assembly of the wings and the assembly of sections including oil tanks.
The Nagpur site ramp-up will see the construction of new buildings, in particular a kerosene test facility, paint facilities and a run-up area.

Local subcontracting partners

In parallel, the qualification of the first Indian suppliers was initiated by the purchasing and total quality departments (DGA and DGQT). Several companies, such as Mahindra, LMW, Maini and TAL, will produce protected and painted metal parts , which will then be assembled in Nagpur. New partners are being sought to expand this network.

The first assembly tools are also being manufactured by Indian subcontractors such as Hemkund, TAL, Alpha Tocol or Assystem India.
Essential to the success of our project, the training of companions began in France to strengthen their aeronautical skills. A partnership with Indian academic institutions is also under study.

Finally, DRAL's information system will comply with our standards. The technical data will be managed with Dassault systems software, such as 3DExperience, and will be operated with SAP.

Specific payloads branch

A specific industrial sector for payloads is developing in cooperation with the company DEFSYS, based in Gurgaon, near New Delhi.

In 2018, it will assemble the CRB 201 pylon and the ADP 170 adapter for the respective payloads of 2000-litre tank and MICA intercept and air combat missiles under the Rafale wing, using kits supplied by Dassault Aviation, before producing them entirely, from 2019, with primary parts made by Indian companies.

New transfers for the manufacture of drop tanks are being implemented, with the active support of the French company AEds.

Our Directorates-General, the Programme Directorates and the Legal and Insurance Directorates are mobilised. They contribute to the success of the project, in cooperation with the general management of industrial operations, Company industrial pilot of the Make in India, with the aim of the first take-off of the Falcon 2000 from Nagpur and, one day, that of the first Rafale manufactured in India.

India has long been recognized as a centre of high competence in IT development. As part of Make in India, part of the development sub-contracting, usually awarded to French companies, has been entrusted to the Indians.
[....]
As with software development, some traditional engineering work will be carried out by Indian companies.
An engineering centre is under study. Its mission will be to ensure local developments, such as the design of structural elements, support for production activities or the development of support systems.

The challenge for the DGSI consists in making all the tools and Company reference systems available to Indian subcontractors and Dassault Aviation personnel in charge of supervising them, in an environment controlled and secured by us.

The possibility of working in collaborative mode in India, as if the engineering centre were in Saint-Cloud, will mark the success of this project. It involves the establishment of a dedicated and efficient France-India gridded network, with an infrastructure managed from Saint-Cloud.

Finally, the objective is to deliver verified aircraft and products to customers that fully comply with their specifications.
For the programme directorates, this translates into four major challenges.
  • Use the execution of the 36 Indian Rafales contract to promote transfer scenarios in the fields of production, but also logistical support and studies in order to achieve the local manufacturing transfer rates necessary to obtain future contracts.
  • To associate Dassault Aviation, its subcontractors and its Indian partners through formal and rigorous processes of methodological transfers.
  • Meet deadlines in this new remote environment.
  • Controlling costs, seeking competitive gains to obtain a return on the major investments made.
Means are implemented to manage the new Franco-Indian context and control the risks.
[......]
The experience gained will enable us to implement the expectations of the Make in India of future Indian Rafale contracts.