MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 31 13.1%

  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 187 78.9%

  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.3%

  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.5%

  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%

  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 9 3.8%

  • F-15EX

    Votes: 9 3.8%

  • Mig-35

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Total voters
    237
Janardan Shukla said:
If you think maintenance of Western fighters is cheap then you are living in delusion. Do you know initially USAF wanted to procure 750 F22s but atlast settled for just 189? Guess why? Due to high cost of maintenance!!!!! Same goes with other Western fighters like eurofighter typhoon or Rafale despite they are 0.5 gen older then f22.
And surely there are other factors too. IAF chief has clearly stated that MMRCA2 is the last time when we are going to buy a foreign jet that is why the most important factor in this deal will be the extent of tech transfer since it is the last chance for us to get advance technology for fighter development which French no matter what they claim will never provide us but Russia will surely do because it is desparate for a big defence deal given its poor economy and wide ranging western sanctions.
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Not only because LCC cost for F22, but also purchase cost ! F22 was sacrified, as the Leclerc main battle tank in France (400 units instead of 1400) because of the collapse of USSR mainly.
Rafale is studied not to require to come back in warehouse to be maintain. If you have the right stock of spare parts, the availaibility may be near 100% (as the Rafale M when on the french carrier).
 
Janardan Shukla said:
The LCC and availability of Rafale and mig 35 is approximately same and given the existing fleet of mig 29 UPG in IAF and experience of HAL in licence producing it the mig 35 will turn slightly cheaper in this regard. And when we combine the cost of procurement then mig 35 is surely much better deal the Rafale.
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LOL.
Mig 35 is even not FOC, so how to calculate a LCC cost and an availability ?

Same BS than when we read than Raven radar of Gripen is the best of the world : it's a prototyp on field test....
 
Main problem with Russian aircrafts is after sales service i e spare part availability and quality , very poor. Its better we go for the French ones as there will no strings attached as they are not subservient to the Americans like UK , to Chinese like Russia. France was one of the few to support us during the nuke tests and regarding the Russians we are a time tested friends since fall of soviet union but its time to diversify as our interests diversify
 
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Bon Plan said:
Not only because LCC cost for F22, but also purchase cost ! F22 was sacrified, as the Leclerc main battle tank in France (400 units instead of 1400) because of the collapse of USSR mainly.
Rafale is studied not to require to come back in warehouse to be maintain. If you have the right stock of spare parts, the availaibility may be near 100% (as the Rafale M when on the french carrier).
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If cost of procurement was a problem for USAF then they have never buy 1500 f35s
 
Janardan Shukla said:
If cost of procurement was a problem for USAF then they have never buy 1500 f35s
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But my dear, the 1500 are not purchased yet, and will never been purchased.

Same than the 138 drealed for GB, or 131 fantasmed for Italy. Not to speak about Turkey.
 
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Amit228 said:
So this means an additional 36 rafale order continuing induction after 2022 when complete induction of original 36 rafales are done... Ofcourse with ISE incorporated..
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Yep. We already have the infrastructure for 80+ jets. So why not use it?

As French airforce have ordered the rafale F4.2 from 2027 onwards.. with last 28 of 180 ordered rafale to be of F4.1 standard.. do u think IAF will be getting F4.2 in same timeframe or earlier as MMRCA is predicted to be concluded at around 2023-2024 with L1 sorted out nd negotiations starting..
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F4.2 is expected to become operational in 2024, so yeah, the MMRCA can be for 4.2. First squadron delivery is not expected until the 5th year after contract signature. So a signature in 2023 would mean the first squadron would come in only by 2027-28. IAF has been very generous this time.

That's actually why we may possibly need a 3rd batch order of 36 Rafales. Or even 54 Rafales in the second batch is good enough. It's Make in India anyway.

Nd what are ur views on SU57E prospects in IAF once izdeliye 180 engines are incorporated.. IAF, as stated by air chief is playing a waiting game on Su57 nd will consider it when it is fully inducted in RussianAF in sizeable nos... with it's full features

'IAF could consider Su-57 stealth jet after it enters Russian service'

Do u think IAF is serious about SU57E considering in future IAF will require a 5th gen aircraft (rafale being 4.75+) with advent of Chinese 5th gen fighters nd a supposedly possible sale of Shenyang J-31 to PAF (at around 2025 with soft loans provided by china a la 8 S-20 submarines to PN).. or it will be comfortable to rely on rafales (f3R ISE & F4.2) & AMCA (induction afterwards of 2030)
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PAK FA prospects are very high, but will be considered only after MMRCA is done and dusted with. We can make do with F4.2 against the current crop of 5th gen jets. But against jets coming in post 2030, we will need PAK FA. The PAK FA configuration will also have to reflect its time, the 2013 configuration is gonna be outdated by then.

I'm hoping Pak buys Chinese 5th gen jets. Not like they can afford European ones anyway, but I'm hoping Europe's not gonna be an option for them. They also have dreams of making an indigenous single-engined jet, which is basically Chinese design and built and Pakistani sticker.

And AMCA's gonna be a reality only after 2035, which is the most optimistic date.
 
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randomradio said:
I'm hoping Pak buys Chinese 5th gen jets. Not like they can afford European ones anyway, but I'm hoping Europe's not gonna be an option for them. They also have dreams of making an indigenous single-engined jet, which is basically Chinese design and built and Pakistani sticker.
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Tranche 1 EF2000, i just wish PAF doesn't get them. Rest anything Chinese in their inventory will be more or less fine.
 
Ankit Kumar said:
Tranche 1 EF2000, i just wish PAF doesn't get them. Rest anything Chinese in their inventory will be more or less fine.
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Tranche 1 Typhoons for PAF will be the best decision ever. :ROFLMAO:

They will waste money buying it, once bought they won't have the money to fly it. And the MKI itself can blow it outta the sky once the Derby ER comes in, never mind the Rafale.
 
Bon Plan said:
But my dear, the 1500 are not purchased yet, and will never been purchased.

Same than the 138 drealed for GB, or 131 fantasmed for Italy. Not to speak about Turkey.
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400 are already delivered. Deal for more 484 has been signed and delivery will be started from year end and will complete in 2022. Of course you can't expect delivery of all 1500 aircraft in a single year.
P:S Financial condition of USA is lot different than GB or Italy or any other country.
 
Janardan Shukla said:
If you think maintenance of Western fighters is cheap then you are living in delusion. Do you know initially USAF wanted to procure 750 F22s but atlast settled for just 189? Guess why? Due to high cost of maintenance!!!!! Same goes with other Western fighters like eurofighter typhoon or Rafale despite they are 0.5 gen older then f22.
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1. The F-22 was slashed because of acquisition costs and because the US military budget was drained by the foreverwars in Afghanistan and Iraq. They made the decision at the time to focus on what was needed to fight the wars they were in, rather than prepare to fight a hypothetical future war.

2. The F-22's high costs come from its stealth design making maintenance more complicated. A lot less access panels make it hard to access and replace components, and a complex procedure to reapply the stealth coating (aka "magic paint") are the reasons for that. Not the fact that it's western.

Rafale maintenance, on the other hand, is significantly cheaper than on comparable aircraft because affordability was one of the design criteria for it. The French air force, for cost reasons, had stayed with single-engine aircraft, moving up to a twin-engine aircraft demanded that mx costs be kept in check.
 
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A Person said:
Rafale maintenance, on the other hand, is significantly cheaper than on comparable aircraft because affordability was one of the design criteria for it. The French air force, for cost reasons, had stayed with single-engine aircraft, moving up to a twin-engine aircraft demanded that mx costs be kept in check.
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Not sure if affordability is going to be a criteria for FCAS though. The NGF is as big as any other heavy jet out there.
 
A Person said:
1. The F-22 was slashed because of acquisition costs and because the US military budget was drained by the foreverwars in Afghanistan and Iraq. They made the decision at the time to focus on what was needed to fight the wars they were in, rather than prepare to fight a hypothetical future war.

2. The F-22's high costs come from its stealth design making maintenance more complicated. A lot less access panels make it hard to access and replace components, and a complex procedure to reapply the stealth coating (aka "magic paint") are the reasons for that. Not the fact that it's western.

Rafale maintenance, on the other hand, is significantly cheaper than on comparable aircraft because affordability was one of the design criteria for it. The French air force, for cost reasons, had stayed with single-engine aircraft, moving up to a twin-engine aircraft demanded that mx costs be kept in check.
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The maintenance cost of Rafale maybe slightly less than mig 35 but it still can't compensate for the higher procurement cost. Plus maintenance cost is something we have to bear in installments through the life cycle of the aircraft while for procurement we need money in one go which is not possible in present budgetary constraints where government has made clear that it is not going to spend more than 16.6% of budget on defence.

randomradio said:
Not sure if affordability is going to be a criteria for FCAS though. The NGF is as big as any other heavy jet out there.
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Do you have information about possible specs of NGF?
 
Janardan Shukla said:
400 are already delivered. Deal for more 484 has been signed and delivery will be started from year end and will complete in 2022. Of course you can't expect delivery of all 1500 aircraft in a single year.
P:S Financial condition of USA is lot different than GB or Italy or any other country.
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F35 is not as potent and affordable as intended (so very different than F16, a very impressive plane of its time once able to fire AMRAAM). US will never purchase 1500 units. I'm usre a new plane is already on study, but for export reason no leak.
 
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