MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 31 13.1%

  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 187 78.9%

  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 3 1.3%

  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.5%

  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%

  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 9 3.8%

  • F-15EX

    Votes: 9 3.8%

  • Mig-35

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Total voters
    237
The Tashkent files said:
Bon plan
Can you tell status of promise on Kaveri, or any future plan of engine development in India with help of France??
Or plan of any engine development shelves???
Click to expand...
Good question. Nothing clear is leaking here in France.
SAFRAN is assured to work on a futur high thrust engine for the 6th gen fighter for Germany & France. High thrust because the plane seems to be quite big. With a turbine entry temperature up do 2500° !
No news about a cooperation with india on it.
It's a very dark matter here (and in India).
My feeling is that the indian market is big (for all kinds of turbines), that the ceo of SAFRAN is clever, so I think all is/will be made to take a piece of this market. And as we don't are as powerfull politically than US, we will have to be smart and flexible about ToT.
But such a crown jewel can't be given. It's dozen and dozen years of high end R&D effort.
 
The Tashkent files said:
Bon plan
Can you tell status of promise on Kaveri, or any future plan of engine development in India with help of France??
Or plan of any engine development shelves???
Click to expand...

The best opportunity for India to make progress in the development of technologically advanced engines was SAFRAN's proposal to co-develop the Kaveri using, where possible, the M-88 technology.

Unfortunately, India perceives the importance of this area, but does not perceive the importance of the cost of such development.
For a moment we thought we were going to come up with a solution by covering the cost of this development as offsets, and SAFRAN was ready to invest 1 billion euros for that, and even declared it to the press.

But the offsets are not completely free, probably to avoid that a too strong estimate of a service allows to easily free oneself from one's obligations.

As a result, SAFRAN was not allowed to invest more than €250 million, which meant an investment of €500 million for DRDO.

And India found it too expensive, whereas it is not expensive at all from the French point of view. For example, in 2010 GE and Rolls Royce had invested $2.5 billion in the development of the F 136 and were preparing to invest another $560 million in 2010 alone, only to finally abandon the project later!

Reflecting the spirit of the Acquisition Reform Act, passed in May 2009, the U.S. House of Representatives recently voted 400 to 30 for a defense-spending bill for fiscal year 2010 that includes $560 million in funding for the F136 engine.

This year, the F136 engine has garnered support in both steps of the U.S. House budget process; defense authorization and defense appropriations.

More than $2.5 billion has been invested in developing the GE Rolls-Royce F136 engine, including more than $50 million from GE and Rolls-Royce. The benefits of competition have been verified by numerous studies and U.S. military experience. The JSF program's international partners in the F-35 program also support competing engines.
Click to expand...

GE Rolls-Royce Fighter Engine Team Submits Fixed Price Contract Approach | GE Aviation
 
randomradio said:
It's a joke about the F-35.

The F-35 Stealth Fighter Has Skills That "Every Pilot Dreams Of"
Perhaps apocryphal, the story goes that a senior US Air Force officer on the Joint Strike Fighter Program found himself sitting next to a Chinese general. ‘I like your aeroplane,’ the General said. That’s nice,’ said the American, How many would you like?’ The general smiled and raised a single finger. ‘Just one,’ he said.

For Rafale it's two because there's a single seat and twin seat.
Click to expand...
And the naval variant?
 
Picdelamirand-oil said:
The best opportunity for India to make progress in the development of technologically advanced engines was SAFRAN's proposal to co-develop the Kaveri using, where possible, the M-88 technology.

Unfortunately, India perceives the importance of this area, but does not perceive the importance of the cost of such development.
For a moment we thought we were going to come up with a solution by covering the cost of this development as offsets, and SAFRAN was ready to invest 1 billion euros for that, and even declared it to the press.

But the offsets are not completely free, probably to avoid that a too strong estimate of a service allows to easily free oneself from one's obligations.

As a result, SAFRAN was not allowed to invest more than €250 million, which meant an investment of €500 million for DRDO.

And India found it too expensive, whereas it is not expensive at all from the French point of view. For example, in 2010 GE and Rolls Royce had invested $2.5 billion in the development of the F 136 and were preparing to invest another $560 million in 2010 alone, only to finally abandon the project later!



GE Rolls-Royce Fighter Engine Team Submits Fixed Price Contract Approach | GE Aviation
Click to expand...

750 million is cheap when talking about Western engines. We can see that with Honewell's $2B cost to simply integrate engines on Jaguar.

But the problem is the people negotiating on the Indian side do not have financal powers since these are just offsets negotiations.
 
randomradio said:
It's a joke about the F-35.

The F-35 Stealth Fighter Has Skills That "Every Pilot Dreams Of"
Perhaps apocryphal, the story goes that a senior US Air Force officer on the Joint Strike Fighter Program found himself sitting next to a Chinese general. ‘I like your aeroplane,’ the General said. That’s nice,’ said the American, How many would you like?’ The general smiled and raised a single finger. ‘Just one,’ he said.

For Rafale it's two because there's a single seat and twin seat.
Click to expand...
By that logic it should be 3 Rafales. A single seat, a twin seat and Rafale M naval carrier version. Third one being more important as J-15s are more of a diving plane as soon as it leaves the carrier it dives into sea....😁😂
 
Dassault Aviation keeps 2019 targets as profit rises
3 MIN READ

PARIS (Reuters) - France’s Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) maintained its 2019 targets for plane deliveries and higher net sales on Wednesday, as it posted a rise in profit for the first half of the year.

The maker of Rafale warplanes and Falcon business jets said its adjusted operating income for the first six months of the year stood at 250 million euros ($278.6 million), up from 111 million euros a year ago.

Adjusted net income rose 54% to 286 million euros. Net sales rose to 3.06 billion euros, up from 1.71 billion euros a year ago.

Dassault Aviation keeps 2019 targets as profit rises - Reuters
 
randomradio said:
Isn't it no different from Rafale-C, except that it can land on a carrier? Or else the Chinese general would have asked for 3 F-35s, one of all three variants.
Click to expand...
Diffrences : an integrated ladder, a stronger arrested hook, a stronger front under carriage, and a system (I think now useless) to align inertial gyro of the plane to those of the carrier.
 
Configuration for a nuclear attack mission

70066612_2646371318740482_997907051038375936_o.jpg
 
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Lockheed submits proposal to supply F-21s to Air Force; to source heavily locally if wins bid
PTI | Sep 29, 2019, 06.46 PM IST

3.jpg

The American company is reported to be competing with Boeing, French company Dassault, and the Russian MiG 35.
​
MUMBAI: American aerospace major Lockheed Martin has submitted a proposal evincing preliminary interest to supply F-21 fighter jets to the Air Force and winning the bid may result in it working with 400 local companies, a senior official has said.

The American company, which has a decade-long partnership with the Tatas on defence manufacturing, is also working on manufacturing the wings for its F-16 fighters from their JV plant in Hyderabad from and has started work on a prototype, which will enable it to supply to the world soon, its vice president for strategy and business development Vivek Lall told .

The Air Force had sought request for information from vendors from across the world to supply 114 modern fighter planes, in a contract that is pegged at USD 18 billion.

The American company is reported to be competing with Boeing, French company Dassault, and the Russian MiG 35.

About the possible offset clauses and the benefits that will accrue to the Air Force, Lall said the contract is under the strategic partnership model and pointed to his company's association with the Tatas.

"The F-21 programme is a very strategic win-win for both the counties. It gets India an entirely different aerospace ecosystem. We have talked to and evaluated 400 companies in India, both public and private, and that is the kind of infrastructure that will be needed to support this," he said.

It can be noted that aircraft manufacturers depend on a lot of vendors to supply components creating an entire downstream ecosystem.

The next stage in the procurement will be filing of an expression of interest, he said, indicating the company is keen to go ahead on the same.

Lall said the F-21 will come with an India-unique electronic warfare suite, a single engine that reduces the costs and also capacity to carry 40 percent more weaponry.

He also welcomed the recent warmth in the Indo-US relations, saying it is a win-win for both the sides which will help businesses forge partnerships.

The growth enhancing measures on taxation will be of particular help for local manufacturing, Lall said, but added that the company has no plans for investments into manufacturing in India.

He said the facility at the Tatas employs 1,000 people in Hyderabad at present and there is no reason why the same should not grow if the ties expand.
-----------------------------------------------
Source: Economic Times of India
 
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I'd say Gripen would be 30% cheaper than Rafale, not half.

He's simply comparing Brazil's contract price with that of India's, which is a wrong way to look at it. Our ISE is more expensive and we bought infrastructure for 4 squadrons. Although offsets benefit is likely in Gripen's favour since it came with development of Gripen F and a production line.
 
_Anonymous_ said:
Aviator Anil Chopra (@Chopsyturvey) Tweeted:
Sweden took a tough position against India on Kashmir.
SAAB now wants to offer Gripen at half of Rafale cost, with full tech transfer, local production
@sneheshphilip Shot in the foot. With 30% aircraft of American origin. Question mark?
SAAB wants to offer Gripen at half of Rafale cost, with full tech transfer, local production (
https://twitter.com/x/status/1178583809685483520
)
Click to expand...
If there is a competition for stupidity, then Swedish politicians will score pretty high. Begani Shadi mein Abdullah Diwana!!
 
randomradio said:
I'd say Gripen would be 30% cheaper than Rafale, not half.

He's simply comparing Brazil's contract price with that of India's, which is a wrong way to look at it. Our ISE is more expensive and we bought infrastructure for 4 squadrons. Although offsets benefit is likely in Gripen's favour since it came with development of Gripen F and a production line.
Click to expand...
What are the developpments still to be done ? Why F?

Rafale will also come with a line. And with an operationnal AESA radar (not the Gripen case), without a US embargoed engine....
 
_Anonymous_ said:
Aviator Anil Chopra (@Chopsyturvey) Tweeted:
Sweden took a tough position against India on Kashmir.
SAAB now wants to offer Gripen at half of Rafale cost, with full tech transfer, local production
@sneheshphilip Shot in the foot. With 30% aircraft of American origin. Question mark?
SAAB wants to offer Gripen at half of Rafale cost, with full tech transfer, local production (
https://twitter.com/x/status/1178583809685483520
)
Click to expand...
LOL. :ROFLMAO::LOL::ROFLMAO:
Half the price ? so according to SAAB an airbus 340 costs the double of a A330 just because it has twice the number of engines? IT'S NOT SERIOUS.

The real price of Gripen is not fine known, as the production is not stabilized. Only pre production planes were made so far. Same about the support costs as the plane is not is squadrons.

Just see the F35 case..... The error was nearly 300% between powerpoint and real bill.
 
Bon Plan said:
What are the developpments still to be done ? Why F?
Click to expand...

The contract Brazil signed covers the development of Gripen F also.

Rafale will also come with a line. And with an operationnal AESA radar (not the Gripen case), without a US embargoed engine....
Click to expand...

Rafale didn't come with a line. Dassault plans to build the line for the next batch.

Yeah, the engine is a problem, but in India's case, we are going for US engines for LCA. So there's not a lot of difference there. In case problems come up, we should be able to reengine Gripen and LCA with Kaveri during mid life upgrade. So it's not a very big problem in the long run.
 
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