Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions

[jk007]

Inde : le Rafale Marine près d'embarquer sur le porte-avions INS Vikrant​

India: the Rafale Marine to embark on the INS Vikrant aircraft carrier

India could announce the selection of Dassault Aviation's Rafale Marine in March during Emmanuel Macron's visit to New Delhi.

The Indian Navy, which has eliminated the Boeing F-18 for technical reasons, has expressed an initial requirement for 26 aircraft to equip its "Made in India" INS Vikrant aircraft carrier. This aircraft will provide the Indians with a homogeneous fleet between the Rafale Air and the Rafale Marine. New Delhi, which ordered 36 Rafales in 2016, received the last aircraft in December, six years later. The two Indian Rafale squadrons have become fully operational.

Intense dialogue between Paris and New Delhi

As part of the fourth annual India-France dialogue on defence at the end of November in Delhi, the Minister of Defence Sébastien Lecornu met his Indian counterpart Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh. The two men discussed ways to strengthen maritime cooperation and increase the complexity of bilateral exercises. They also discussed defence industrial cooperation, including 'Make in India'. They talked about future cooperation and co-production opportunities. The two ministers agreed that the two countries' technical groups should meet in early 2023 to take forward key cooperation issues. The day before the dialogue, on 27 November, a high-level French delegation led by Sébastien Lecornu visited the aircraft carrier INS Vikrant. "This visit has helped consolidate the bilateral strategic relations between the two countries," said the Indian Ministry of Defence.

For his part, General Manoj Pande, Chief of Army Staff, visited France from 14 to 17 November 2022. During his four-day visit, he met with his counterpart and senior French military officials, including the Chief of Army Staff, to strengthen defence cooperation between the two countries. He also laid a wreath at the Neuve Chapelle Indian Memorial, which commemorates the sacrifice of 4,742 Indian soldiers during the First World War.

I was wondering why India has selected Rafale, which does not at all fit into elevators of Vikramaditya (while F-18 can with some manuevring). My take:
a) India do not want to push China beyond a point, by buying an american weapon and thereby get common *combat* platform for Indian & US navy.
b) 26 planes in too puny an order to introduce a new weapon system from a new country.
c) Common platform (Rafale) between IAF and Navy.
d) Keep Russians happy by not staging F-18 on Vikramaditya.
e) Americans may get a large order for IAF (F35?). So, Rafale will be given 36 (already in IAF) + 26 for Navy.
f) Modi is not happy with Americans commenting on religious freedom and other such @#$%. Modi does not trust the Americans.
g) 26 Rafale are expected to be transferred to IAF in a few years as the govt has high confidence on TEDBF.

@randomradio:
many years ago, you wrote a long article saying that both aircraft carriers must have a single type combat aircraft. You mentioned many points justifying that (single training requirement; pilots can be exchanged; losses can be easily replinished from other carrier etc etc).

All of those points are negated now, as Indian navy is moving to MIG-29K on Vikramaditya and Rafale on Vikrant.

I am disappointed by India choosing Rafale for Navy. Primarily, because I believe Indian Navy with F-18 conducting exercises with US-Navy with their F-18s are a different game. Indian Navy will end-up with multiple combat platforms.

In case of war with China, only USA can / will replenish / supply weapons to India.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I was wondering why India has selected Rafale, which does not at all fit into elevators of Vikramaditya (while F-18 can with some manuevring). My take:
a) India do not want to push China beyond a point, by buying an american weapon and thereby get common *combat* platform for Indian & US navy.
b) 26 planes in too puny an order to introduce a new weapon system from a new country.
c) Common platform (Rafale) between IAF and Navy.
d) Keep Russians happy by not staging F-18 on Vikramaditya.
e) Americans may get a large order for IAF (F35?). So, Rafale will be given 36 (already in IAF) + 26 for Navy.
f) Modi is not happy with Americans commenting on religious freedom and other such @#$%. Modi does not trust the Americans.
g) 26 Rafale are expected to be transferred to IAF in a few years as the govt has high confidence on TEDBF.

@randomradio:
many years ago, you wrote a long article saying that both aircraft carriers must have a single type combat aircraft. You mentioned many points justifying that (single training requirement; pilots can be exchanged; losses can be easily replinished from other carrier etc etc).

All of those points are negated now, as Indian navy is moving to MIG-29K on Vikramaditya and Rafale on Vikrant.

I am disappointed by India choosing Rafale for Navy. Primarily, because I believe Indian Navy with F-18 conducting exercises with US-Navy with their F-18s are a different game. Indian Navy will end-up with multiple combat platforms.

In case of war with China, only USA can / will replenish / supply weapons to India.

Some other arguments in favour of the Rafale

1) The Vikrant air boss had recently mentioned that the MiG-29 was difficult to land on the Vikrant due to its size. This is surprising because if the navy pilots found the MiG-29 difficult to land, how would they plan to land the F-18SH?

2) BDL-MBDA's recent announcement regarding the integration of the Astra Mk1 on the IAF Rafales. Obviously this will also be done on the MRCBF chosen by IN. As the integration is done on the Rafale, paying for the same on the F-18SH would have been counterproductive.

3) Admiral Karambir Singh had said that the Navy would jump on any aircraft that the IAF chose from the MRFA. The Rafale was the only logical choice for the IAF. Another general officer had doubted that the Navy could really afford a stand-alone fleet of 27 F-18SHs.

4) India's specific upgrades to the IAF Rafale were a major factor in the IN decision. With the billions spent on the ISE, it would have been financially negative to repeat the same for a standalone fleet of 27 F-18SHs.

5) The recently announced redesign of the IAC-2. The biggest beneficiary of the IAC-2 would have been the F-18SH because of the planned catapult system. But with the shelving of this programme, the chances of the F-18SH have diminished.

6) Finally, it seems that the F-18 SH is too heavy for the Vikrant's arresting gears.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Some other arguments in favour of the Rafale

1) The Vikrant air boss had recently mentioned that the MiG-29 was difficult to land on the Vikrant due to its size. This is surprising because if the navy pilots found the MiG-29 difficult to land, how would they plan to land the F-18SH?

2) BDL-MBDA's recent announcement regarding the integration of the Astra Mk1 on the IAF Rafales. Obviously this will also be done on the MRCBF chosen by IN. As the integration is done on the Rafale, paying for the same on the F-18SH would have been counterproductive.

3) Admiral Karambir Singh had said that the Navy would jump on any aircraft that the IAF chose from the MRFA. The Rafale was the only logical choice for the IAF. Another general officer had doubted that the Navy could really afford a stand-alone fleet of 27 F-18SHs.

4) India's specific upgrades to the IAF Rafale were a major factor in the IN decision. With the billions spent on the ISE, it would have been financially negative to repeat the same for a standalone fleet of 27 F-18SHs.

5) The recently announced redesign of the IAC-2. The biggest beneficiary of the IAC-2 would have been the F-18SH because of the planned catapult system. But with the shelving of this programme, the chances of the F-18SH have diminished.

6) Finally, it seems that the F-18 SH is too heavy for the Vikrant's arresting gears.

Actually , now that everything's awaiting a final formal announcement the truth can be told . There wasn't any competition to begin with . I say this with the benefit of hindsight but also under assumption the IN will select the Rafales coz quite a few commentators pointed out that had there been a single vendor situation , Dassault would , as usual, be rigid about the price & other terms . And Indians will never buy anything without a bargain & a freebie thrown in .

Off topic the Chinese will never give you a bargain. That's the reason India & China are having this face off on the borders aka LAC . The idea behind mentioning China was to re iterate how holy & non negotiable the concept of bargaining is for Indians .

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Actually , now that everything's awaiting a final formal announcement the truth can be told . There wasn't any competition to begin with . I say this with the benefit of hindsight but also under assumption the IN will select the Rafales coz quite a few commentators pointed out that had there been a single vendor situation , Dassault would , as usual, be rigid about the price & other terms . And Indians will never buy anything without a bargain & a freebie thrown in .

Off topic the Chinese will never give you a bargain. That's the reason India & China are having this face off on the borders aka LAC . The idea behind mentioning China was to re iterate how holy & non negotiable the concept of bargaining is for Indians .

And Dassault will never change the terms of his proposal:
Dassault believes that its duty to any customer is to make the best possible proposal in terms of price. And so if the price could be lowered, it would mean that he did not make sufficient efforts the first time, which is impossible. So the 'negotiation' is limited to determining what is too expensive in Dassault's proposal and can therefore be removed.

 

[randomradio]

I was wondering why India has selected Rafale, which does not at all fit into elevators of Vikramaditya (while F-18 can with some manuevring). My take:
a) India do not want to push China beyond a point, by buying an american weapon and thereby get common *combat* platform for Indian & US navy.
b) 26 planes in too puny an order to introduce a new weapon system from a new country.
c) Common platform (Rafale) between IAF and Navy.
d) Keep Russians happy by not staging F-18 on Vikramaditya.
e) Americans may get a large order for IAF (F35?). So, Rafale will be given 36 (already in IAF) + 26 for Navy.
f) Modi is not happy with Americans commenting on religious freedom and other such @#$%. Modi does not trust the Americans.
g) 26 Rafale are expected to be transferred to IAF in a few years as the govt has high confidence on TEDBF.

Zero politics, the decision was purely technical, 'cause the SH was rejected in the tech phase by the IN. So it's clear that the jet couldn't even pass the gate checks.

I had always said that the SH will be the default choice only if it clears tech evaluations. Doesn't look like it did, as per the article.

I'm not really complaining though, we chose the better jet. Time to develop our own global ISR network.

@randomradio:
many years ago, you wrote a long article saying that both aircraft carriers must have a single type combat aircraft. You mentioned many points justifying that (single training requirement; pilots can be exchanged; losses can be easily replinished from other carrier etc etc).

All of those points are negated now, as Indian navy is moving to MIG-29K on Vikramaditya and Rafale on Vikrant.

I am disappointed by India choosing Rafale for Navy. Primarily, because I believe Indian Navy with F-18 conducting exercises with US-Navy with their F-18s are a different game. Indian Navy will end-up with multiple combat platforms.

In case of war with China, only USA can / will replenish / supply weapons to India.

The earlier assumption was made on the premise that the SH will be operable from Vikramaditya, hence both the carriers. It appears neither jet can be used from Vikramaditya, so that's unfortunate. Rafale has the length, but no folding wings. The SH has the wings, but not the length. So the Mig-29 it is.

With the fall of the euro, Rafale is now competitive with American jets on price point. With the IAF having funded Rafale's ISE, that's another bonus.

As for American weapons, I think it would be a good idea to integrate some, if the Americans allow us to move in that direction. One would be the LRASM/JASSM-ER and the other is the SDB family. Paveway series has already been integrated. But I don't think it will happen.

 

[Bali78]

We have re opened negotiations for P8I and CH47F with USA. So not a zero sum game.

It’s like giving lollipop instead of biryani. P8I and CH47F do not provide any strategic control Uncle Sam wished for. I’m glad Indian govt very politely showed the middle finger.

 

[_Anonymous_]

It’s like giving lollipop instead of biryani. P8I and CH47F do not provide any strategic control Uncle Sam wished for. I’m glad Indian govt very politely showed the middle finger.

Lots more in the lollipop. There's the Predator deal rumoured to be 20-30 & more Apaches. You put this all together & you come close to a figure of 8-10 billion USDs over the course of a year or two. That's as far as the value of the order goes . You're right about the lack of strategic depth though

 

[jk007]

Zero politics, the decision was purely technical, 'cause the SH was rejected in the tech phase by the IN. So it's clear that the jet couldn't even pass the gate checks.

I had always said that the SH will be the default choice only if it clears tech evaluations. Doesn't look like it did, as per the article.

I'm not really complaining though, we chose the better jet. Time to develop our own global ISR network.

Are we really sure that F-18 is significantly inferior to Rafale? 2 days before the report from Navy was released, there are reports that F-18 is better??

The earlier assumption was made on the premise that the SH will be operable from Vikramaditya, hence both the carriers. It appears neither jet can be used from Vikramaditya, so that's unfortunate. Rafale has the length, but no folding wings. The SH has the wings, but not the length. So the Mig-29 it is.

There are reports that - Folks representing F-18 has shown to Indian Navy how F-18 can be used in Vikramaditya without modifications (or) without significant modifications?

 

[randomradio]

Are we really sure that F-18 is significantly inferior to Rafale? 2 days before the report from Navy was released, there are reports that F-18 is better??

Purely from the perspective of anti-shipping and standoff capabilities, I believe the SH to be better currently due to direct access to the US network and better weapons. Otoh, the Rafale is yet to get something like the LRASM. But that's about it, I don't believe the SH is better than the Rafale at anything else.

A2A capabilities, performance, endurance etc should favour the Rafale. The SH has slightly better avionics, like a GaN-based EW suite, but the Rafale should eventually get it too, although all the good stuff seems to be part of F5. Most other weapons on the Rafale are significantly superior.

The SH should get more advanced capabilities via loyal wingmen faster than the Rafale, where the Americans are obviously ahead in the development curve.

The competition should have come down to carrier operations in the end, which must have killed the SH's chances. Killing the CATOBAR carrier must have also played a large part, which means even the E-2D is gone, Growler is gone, Stingray is gone etc. Basically, anything that could make the SH a capable jet cannot be used. But support aircraft connected to the American network gives the SH the advantage. What really makes the US a military superpower is their navy after all and the SH is a crucial part of that. On its own, the SH is pointless. Rafale is almost a one-man army in comparison. But both jets are still useless at sea without ISR.

There are reports that - Folks representing F-18 has shown to Indian Navy how F-18 can be used in Vikramaditya without modifications (or) without significant modifications?

They have to remove the nose apparently to fit it in one of Vikram's lifts. The Rafale cannot operate from either lift. On the Vikrant, the SH should be fine, but the Rafale needs its wingtips removed. They can probably work on some kind of folding mechanism for the wingtip (expensive) or something that's easily detachable (cheap). Kudos to the navy for not looking up Wiki specs when they designed the carriers.

In any case, Dassault now has the ability to kill MRFA in favour of batchwise production of the Rafale in India. So let's see what happens here.

 

[randomradio]

It’s like giving lollipop instead of biryani. P8I and CH47F do not provide any strategic control Uncle Sam wished for. I’m glad Indian govt very politely showed the middle finger.

I don't think there was some saazish behind this. The SH seems to have geniunely lost. Maybe some mixed reactions within GoI, but the IN wanted capability first and the SH lost. Modi-era deals have been extremely clean and transparent.

As for strategic control, the IA's Apaches are coming up next. Could be bigger than the SH deal.

 

[Hydra]

Modi-era deals have been extremely clean and transparent.

As for strategic control, the IA's Apaches are coming up next. Could be bigger than the SH deal.

Antony#2,more delays and reduced capabilities. IAF forced to hire predators & P8 to be deployed at LAC. No AWACS, no ATGMs, no ISTAR or equivalent, 36 rafales instead of 126 MMRCA.

Then it should be in 60+ orders, you think that HAL will let IAF to order that much quantity?

 

[randomradio]

Antony#2,more delays and reduced capabilities. IAF forced to hire predators & P8 to be deployed at LAC. No AWACS, no ATGMs, no ISTAR or equivalent, 36 rafales instead of 126 MMRCA.

Then it should be in 60+ orders, you think that HAL will let IAF to order that much quantity?

IA's Apache requirement has nothing to do with HAL's LCH. Each Strike Corps needs an Apache squadron, so that's 4 in all. Now the number in each squadron could be lesser than a standard squadron. Like 12 or 16, not necessarily 22-24. But full squadron means up to 90 Apaches in total. The IAF may also ask for 22 more to replace the leftover Mi-35 squadron. And the IN may also need a squadron or two for their upcoming LHDs. So there's potential for local production.

 

[Bali78]

Lots more in the lollipop. There's the Predator deal rumoured to be 20-30 & more Apaches. You put this all together & you come close to a figure of 8-10 billion USDs over the course of a year or two. That's as far as the value of the order goes . You're right about the lack of strategic depth though

My point is about the strategic hold US wants. 8-10 billion is a big amount for India, not for US.

 

[vstol Jockey]

There is a thing called spot factor in aircraft Carriers. It is about the the space taken by an aircraft inside the hanger compared to the aircraft it is supposed to replace. Rafale due to its smaller size compared to F-18 has won on that account. compared to F-18, four additional Rafale-M can be carried inside the hanger.

 

[Hydra]

There is a thing called spot factor in aircraft Carriers. It is about the the space taken by an aircraft inside the hanger compared to the aircraft it is supposed to replace. Rafale due to its smaller size compared to F-18 has won on that account. compared to F-18, four additional Rafale-M can be carried inside the hanger.

So its confirmed that Rafale is selected?

 

[_Anonymous_]

And Dassault will never change the terms of his proposal:
Dassault believes that its duty to any customer is to make the best possible proposal in terms of price. And so if the price could be lowered, it would mean that he did not make sufficient efforts the first time, which is impossible. So the 'negotiation' is limited to determining what is too expensive in Dassault's proposal and can therefore be removed.

What you're saying runs contrary to the lived experience of anybody who's tracked defence acquisitions or participated in them , whether in India or abroad in as far as price negotiations go especially if the ownership happens to be Jewish but since they've converted to Christianity they may have seen the light & become utra principled even if the business they're in , as a rule of thumb , is a dirty one & I don't mean Dassault or even the defence aviation business here but the military industrial conglomerate in general terms .

But , obviously you'd know better.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

I believe PLAAF will deploy its J 10 and J 16 on PAF bases in Karachi and Ormara on the Makran Coast

China will Not Send its Aircraft Carriers to Indian Ocean but only Its fighter planes


The Maintenance of IAF and IN Rafales will be Similar and it Will Be Entrusted to IAF bases

For Example If INS Vikrant is in Arabian Sea and IN Rafales are Fighting with J 10 and F 16
They can Land safely at JAMNAGAR , And IAF maintenance crew will be able to Handle them

 

[Sathya]

It ll be F4.2 version?

 

[Bon Plan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1610854370891161603

 

[Bon Plan]

It ll be F4.2 version?

All the export Rafale produced, except the 24 first for Egypt, are F3R. That means they can easily be upgrede to F4.2
Only the french older, and 24 first of Egypt are economically limited to F4.1

Now all the prospects are made with a F4.2 variant.