Not at all, Say what you like about France, but as far as bribing. they are the best. there are a couple of Australians who France paid millions to as 'advisers' over the sub deal..google will tell you.
Are you suggesting the Aussies gyped le Francais after taking their money ?
Why , that's despicable !! What's the world coming to ? There's no honour among thieves the only people who valued honour.
Hope le Francais don't bring up your lineage for this stab in the back . More than that hope the US+UK don't take you for a royal ride which seems likely by the day from all angles .
I would love to be bribed by Le French if I worked in government where I have some influence of what kind of plane is chosen. I bet folks in these positions lick their chops and rub their hands when they hear the French are coming to make a bid.
I thought the entire Lightning program as run by DoD & the services apart from the US Army procurement of scout hptrs was a sterling example of precisely your kind manning the decision making process in such organisations.
Say what you may , the capacity of the MIC in the US to purchase favor from Congress & the media is unmatched. Le Francais are at junior school level with the Aussies in kindergarten in comparison .
I doubt we even have the technology, never mind the ability to launch that many satellites or even have the money to create that many satellites.
The Americans and Chinese have built up their global network over many decades. So even if we start today, it will take us 20-30 years to build it.
Here's a fun civilian system the Chinese have made functional.
The coolest of the lot.
So this doesn't have to be restricted to visible light alone, it can be done with IR and microwaves.
There are 89 such satellites in orbit and China plans to push that up to 300 over the next few years. It includes IR sensors as well.
The Chinese planned to release a real time map for civilian use for free, like Google Earth, for mass consumption, some day, until other govts convinced them not to. But I think they will do it once the Jilin constellation is up and running.
While China has the ability to physically move satellites out of orbit, and will also have manned capabilities, we will be lucky to have a functional indigenous GPS class system by 2030 first.
The US is still way ahead right now, but that's guaranteed only until 2030. We are the only idiots without minimum required space-based capabilities.
We are betting big time on the US right now, hence the reason why we can strut around like a peacock.
You are worried about 26 SH, but you haven't realised that the IAF and IN will have about 450 jets using the F404/414 for the next 30+ years. LCA Mk1/A, Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA Mk1 will use American engines. And our navy is also using quite a bit of American hardware, for example, pretty much our entire modern airborne ASW capability is American, P-8I and Romeo.
But we are balancing the equation out by asking for more control, like 100% control over engine tech. We need significant control over the LM2500 as well, most of our new ships will use it for the next 30 years. Wherever we do not have much control, we are balancing it out by procuring an alternative from other sources, like a British ship engine for some ships, or French Rafale and so on.
My belief since the very beginning too. IAF gets what they want, IN gets what they want plus govt gets to play politics. But I'm sure the Americans will find a way to make the SH cheaper than the Rafale.
@john0496
I was talking about this only yesterday.
www.defensenews.com
The funding request, which the Biden administration is expected to submit to Congress this week, includes “designs and plans” for the software and communications backbone that will be needed to use both air and space sensors to track targets, Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall said during the Air and Space Force Association’s Air Warfare Symposium in Colorado.
“The details are classified, but with support from Congress, we should be able to move forward with a resilient suite of airborne and space-based sensors and the associated processing and data distribution needed to perform those functions,” Kendall said at the Tuesday event.
There's more in the article.
I was talking about this only yesterday.
Defense budget includes plans for space-based tracking, Kendall says
"We should be able to move forward with a resilient suite of airborne and space-based sensors," Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall said.
www.defensenews.com
“The details are classified, but with support from Congress, we should be able to move forward with a resilient suite of airborne and space-based sensors and the associated processing and data distribution needed to perform those functions,” Kendall said at the Tuesday event.
There's more in the article.
Quite frankly , if the French Navy can ensure inter operability with the USN I don't see why it should be a problem for the IN. If it means additional investment to set up such hardware + software & necessary protocols then so be it. That's the price we pay for independence of operation without unwanted & uninvited personnel breathing down our shoulders.
I certainly wouldn't want the DoD or SD personnel being a permanent feature aboard our AC. As it is they're a constant feature at INS Rajali in Arakkonam . The 2:US Sea Guardian drones we've leased are also operated & maintained by them.
And if you think this is intrusive, the INS Jalashwa we bought following it's being decommissioned by the USN was also under the supervision of the USN as per the agreement GoI signed with the then US administration, with their personnel stationed in India on IN bases to check for compliance.
Ditto for the presence of RuN personnel aboard the INS Chakra & it's successor ships. At least the French Navy has better things to pursue than play monitor with us.
I certainly wouldn't want the DoD or SD personnel being a permanent feature aboard our AC. As it is they're a constant feature at INS Rajali in Arakkonam . The 2:US Sea Guardian drones we've leased are also operated & maintained by them.
And if you think this is intrusive, the INS Jalashwa we bought following it's being decommissioned by the USN was also under the supervision of the USN as per the agreement GoI signed with the then US administration, with their personnel stationed in India on IN bases to check for compliance.
Ditto for the presence of RuN personnel aboard the INS Chakra & it's successor ships. At least the French Navy has better things to pursue than play monitor with us.
The INDOPACOM network only has the Five Eyes, with India and Japan joining in via CENTRIXS, where we have more limited access than the already limited access Japan has. France is not party to this network. If even Indian aircraft do not carry the American comm systems necessary to access CENTRIXS, then how can one expect the US to allow a third party platform to carry it?
Even SoKo doesn't have access. Why? Probably 'cause they want to sit out of anything that's not related to NoKo.
Rafales do carry American comms, like the Link 16, but that's under NATO's theater, not the Indo-Pacific. The American network is theater-specific. Naturally India has no access to NATO's network.
Whether it's to protect US data or a ploy to force India to buy American systems only, the fact is we gotta buy American if we want access. The alternative is France joins the QUAD, but they have made it very clear they are gonna sit out of the great power game in the Pacific, so no one's gonna take them seriously on this side of the world.
While the Americans have made concessions under the NATO framework, with France being involved in developing comm systems for the NATO theater, there's not gonna be any such luck in the Indo-Pacific without active participation. The US is also not interested in jointly developing comms with India, so both our systems will be independent of each other.
American personnel are already present in Indian bases, Apache, C-17, C-130J and P-8I. And we are getting more of them related to comms pretty soon, with the Sea and SkyGuardians, both require Link 16, possibly even TTNT. Adding the SH to the kitty is not going to make any difference. We will benefit more with the further release of advanced tech over time, like a new radar for the P-8I alongside software unlocks of restricted modes. It's a necessary sacrifice for the next 30 years. We need the P-8I also equipped with American comms along with our carriers.
Even SoKo doesn't have access. Why? Probably 'cause they want to sit out of anything that's not related to NoKo.
Rafales do carry American comms, like the Link 16, but that's under NATO's theater, not the Indo-Pacific. The American network is theater-specific. Naturally India has no access to NATO's network.
Whether it's to protect US data or a ploy to force India to buy American systems only, the fact is we gotta buy American if we want access. The alternative is France joins the QUAD, but they have made it very clear they are gonna sit out of the great power game in the Pacific, so no one's gonna take them seriously on this side of the world.
While the Americans have made concessions under the NATO framework, with France being involved in developing comm systems for the NATO theater, there's not gonna be any such luck in the Indo-Pacific without active participation. The US is also not interested in jointly developing comms with India, so both our systems will be independent of each other.
American personnel are already present in Indian bases, Apache, C-17, C-130J and P-8I. And we are getting more of them related to comms pretty soon, with the Sea and SkyGuardians, both require Link 16, possibly even TTNT. Adding the SH to the kitty is not going to make any difference. We will benefit more with the further release of advanced tech over time, like a new radar for the P-8I alongside software unlocks of restricted modes. It's a necessary sacrifice for the next 30 years. We need the P-8I also equipped with American comms along with our carriers.
We may opt for F/A-18E/F because of all the reasons you've stated, but remember that US, unlike France is not our all-weather friend. IN may will have to play a defensive role without American ISR network(which indeed is unparallel), but it is still better than selling your soul to the devil.
Rest, IN and our gov. know what needs to be done.
Frankly RoK may be determined to sit it out but if it'd go badly for China during the invasion of Taiwan with a massive push back from the latter & heavy involvement by the Americans & Japanese , who's betting China won't force DPRK into war with RoK & possibly Japan .
Coming back to our own theatre of operations , up until 2030 whatever the Chinese can bring to bear in the IOR can be dealt with by India with what we have . In fact even today the IN is the only service which's better placed as compared to it's counterparts - the Army & Navy in standing upto China .
In the run upto 2030 the MRCBF would be more than a handful to cater to the choke points from the A&N island chains & southern India . That coupled with the Sea Guardian drones we're getting , the P-8i ASW aircrafts & a complement of MKI equipped with Brahmos can well seal the deal along with our surface fleet . Apart from this we can rely on the SOSUS network & US + allies ISR capabilities to bolster our efforts.
Are more submarines , surface vessels , more ASW - winged & rotary aircrafts , drones etc necessary ? Well anything additional is more than welcome but we have the essential ingredients to cater to a 1-2 AC Armada with what I've listed above , assuming China'd actually deploy a 1-2 AC Armada which I doubt they can by 2030.
The danger from PLAN & their upcoming Expeditionary Forces will start growing from 2030 onwards . The real threat will be from 2035 onwards but by then I expect the Taiwan issue & our own LAC problems to be resolved one way or another .
So , all things considered , we are better placed in matters Navy for the time being up until 2030 than we are in matters - land & air .
Besides this is really a pathetic argument that if you already have x amount of involvement with the US including their personnel sniffing around in your bases what's wrong with letting in more of them ? Equally pathetic is the argument that we go in the whole hog because of limitations of non American equipment to communicate with American equipment , hence we circumvent the problem by going in for more US equipment .
Well , if Japan & RoK can't access everything or most of what the 5i's share with each other which is the admitted position of RST , where's the question of India getting even the access that's permitted to Japan & RoK ? After all both of them are US treaty partners , while we aren't .
Coming back to our own theatre of operations , up until 2030 whatever the Chinese can bring to bear in the IOR can be dealt with by India with what we have . In fact even today the IN is the only service which's better placed as compared to it's counterparts - the Army & Navy in standing upto China .
In the run upto 2030 the MRCBF would be more than a handful to cater to the choke points from the A&N island chains & southern India . That coupled with the Sea Guardian drones we're getting , the P-8i ASW aircrafts & a complement of MKI equipped with Brahmos can well seal the deal along with our surface fleet . Apart from this we can rely on the SOSUS network & US + allies ISR capabilities to bolster our efforts.
Are more submarines , surface vessels , more ASW - winged & rotary aircrafts , drones etc necessary ? Well anything additional is more than welcome but we have the essential ingredients to cater to a 1-2 AC Armada with what I've listed above , assuming China'd actually deploy a 1-2 AC Armada which I doubt they can by 2030.
The danger from PLAN & their upcoming Expeditionary Forces will start growing from 2030 onwards . The real threat will be from 2035 onwards but by then I expect the Taiwan issue & our own LAC problems to be resolved one way or another .
So , all things considered , we are better placed in matters Navy for the time being up until 2030 than we are in matters - land & air .
Besides this is really a pathetic argument that if you already have x amount of involvement with the US including their personnel sniffing around in your bases what's wrong with letting in more of them ? Equally pathetic is the argument that we go in the whole hog because of limitations of non American equipment to communicate with American equipment , hence we circumvent the problem by going in for more US equipment .
Well , if Japan & RoK can't access everything or most of what the 5i's share with each other which is the admitted position of RST , where's the question of India getting even the access that's permitted to Japan & RoK ? After all both of them are US treaty partners , while we aren't .
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If we choose F18, we ll have bank on TEDBF to have Non - dependency.
Wrt Engines F414 and coming make in India, will it provide a Sanction proof operations?
Would engine must need OEM support after the deal?
The full complement of ~100 nos TEDBF won't be available before 2040-42 going by currently projected T/Ls . Frankly there really isn't anything to go by for given the track record of our security establishment , you believe it when you see it be it the signing of the MRCBF tender or the LSP of the TEDBF .
Besides these 26 FA are a stop gap measure for the MiG-29K which turned out to be a really bad purchase. By the time we receive the full complement of the TEDBF by 2042 , the MRCBF would be anywhere between 13-15 yrs old (normally Carrier based FA are retired by 25 yrs ) assuming we sign the agreement now & release the order within a yr which means we recieve the full lot between 2027-29 ( again going by current estimates of T/Ls ) .
What this means is that even if we're denied spares for some reason if we've 100 TEDBF flying , we can cannibalise half of them to run the other half which means an effective fleet of 50 nos . Ditto for MRCBF . That's the worst case scenario .
Should mitigate the risks somewhat but the essential parts would still come from the US with graduated indigenization of some parts . Right now everything is up in the air . Wait for some time after the agreement is signed to understand the fine print & it's implications . Frankly , I don't expect us to even get a deal on par with what we signed with the Russians for mfg the AL-31FP turbofans for the MKIs .
Yes of course.
Look we need to do 2 things & fast - select an OEM ASAP to partner us for the JV in the 125 KN turbofan which'd go into the AMCA Mk-2 & work on up & down rated derivatives which would follow the certification of the 125 KN version .
Secondly we need to work on a new version of the Kaveri turbofan based on lessons learnt . Let's hope / assume we get a certified 125 KN turbofan by 2035-37 .
B R F Twitter gang believe once the non AFB version of the Kaveri is successfully tested on the Ghatak , GTRE can begin work on a 95-100 KN turbofan version which'd take 10 yrs to certify. So , assuming we get it between 2035-40 , they'd be in time to go in for the MLU of the Mk-1a .
Once this happens we can develop up / down rated versions of 2 types of Turbofans .
What this means is that till this happens or even one of the above mentioned situation is fully accomplished we're at the mercy of the US which by the looks of it will be up until 2040 at least , give or take .
If you feel despondent & you want to experience a better scenario , you know whom to contact . If you really want a sun shine version , something which'd bring a big smile to your face & a glow in-your-heart minus a product of TASMAC , make sure to buzz only post 8 pm .
Here we're talking about France not Russia. France is our reliable partner unlike US.
If you can purchase & lease thing from a country like Russia, then definitely you can do the same from USA.