Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions

[randomradio]

You can always find advantages in this situation, but I don't know of any company that would have taken the risk of announcing the end of an assembly line just before a choice is made in a competition in which it is participating.

I get your point, you think Boeing has given up already, but I doubt that's gonna matter at this stage of the competition.

If the final judgement comes down to cost, Boeing's position shouldn't be a deciding factor because the USN plans to use the SH for 30+ years at the minimum anyway.

 

[Hydra]

I still think the rafale is the best option. Not because the Rafale is better, because I don't think it is. India has said both suit their requirement and you already have the Rafale infrastructure. Why introduce another platform?

I don't see the line closing as an issue. The Super Hornet lll, will get regular upgrades till it's retired. It's what the US does. It is superior now and will continue to be so.

If Rafale is inducts,then IN has to depend IAF as no twin seat variant is available with Rafale M,that's not the case with F18.
And I don't think IAF will share resources & weapons with IN .

 

[randomradio]

I still think the rafale is the best option. Not because the Rafale is better, because I don't think it is. India has said both suit their requirement and you already have the Rafale infrastructure. Why introduce another platform?

I don't see the line closing as an issue. The Super Hornet lll, will get regular upgrades till it's retired. It's what the US does. It is superior now and will continue to be so.

The SH's engine commonality with the TEDBF is of greater significance though.

In any case, this talk of Rafale infrastructure is irrelevant. The IN needs its own fighter base with the same infrastructure in the first place, on both land and carrier. So both companies are on an even keel.

And when it comes to production, F414 engine tech transfer is expected to happen, and that gives SH the infrastructure advantage.

Boeing also plans on manufacturing a lot of SH spares in India. End of production also means India's cheaper costs could make it a spares hub. There's in fact a very grand plan in India concerning the airline industry. The massive Tata deal is a hint of what's to come.

 

[randomradio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1638910562674397185

He's basically talking about restarting the tender. That's not the case.

They are deciding on the winner right now.

 

[Hydra]

In any case, this talk of Rafale infrastructure is irrelevant. The IN needs its own fighter base with the same infrastructure in the first place, on both land and carrier. So both companies are on an even keel.

This simple funda, people cannot digest it.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I get your point, you think Boeing has given up already, but I doubt that's gonna matter at this stage of the competition.

If the final judgement comes down to cost, Boeing's position shouldn't be a deciding factor because the USN plans to use the SH for 30+ years at the minimum anyway.

But it is already too late for the F-18, Boeing had said that it was able to produce your planes from 2027 and now it says that it will close its line in 2025 if it does not have a contract and in 2027 if it has one: that means that your planes will be produced in 2026 and 2027! does that seem credible to you? and even if the F-18 SH is chosen tomorrow, how long will it take for a contract to be signed? Boeing is in such a hurry that it is incompatible with Indian time and procedures. So Boeing made the decision for you, seeing that you were too slow. Because they certainly didn't buy the long lead items, including Russian titanium! This represents about 6% of the contract, or at least $180 million, and Boeing certainly didn't take this kind of risk when it saw the uncertainties that hung over this contract. Dassault can take this risk because sooner or later it will use these items on one of the French or export contracts.

Moreover, now that it knows that the chain will stop, it may need the space to produce something else, stealth tankers for example...

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Rafale, sous-marins : Narendra Modi à Paris pour le défilé du 14 juillet

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Rafale, submarines: Narendra Modi in Paris for the July 14 parade

To celebrate 25 years of their strategic partnership, New Delhi and Paris could launch a new and much closer era in their bilateral relations in July. Narendra Modi and Emmanuel Macron have many cooperation issues to discuss.

If nothing else, Narendra Modi should be in Paris on 14 July, according to sources. The Indian Prime Minister, who was the guest of honour for the military parade, is said to have accepted the invitation of Emmanuel Macron, who was initially due to visit New Delhi in March. The French Head of State will finally pay a visit to India in September. These two high-level meetings will allow India and France to celebrate this year the 25 years of their strategic partnership. "France is one of India's most reliable strategic partners," said the Indian Ministry of Defence at the end of 2022, shortly before the visit of the Minister of Defence, Sébastien Lecornu, on 27 and 28 November.

During his visit to Paris, Narendra Modi could announce the selection of the Rafale Marine (26 aircraft) by India, as he had done in April 2015 during his visit to Paris with the acquisition of 36 Rafale ready to fly. In 2022, Dassault Aviation finished delivering the entire Indian order to the Indian Air Force (IAF). Then a contract could be signed in September for implementation in late 2023 or early 2024. The Rafale Marine, which has been competing with the F-18, could then embark on the "Made in India" INS Vikrant aircraft carrier. In the longer term, the IAF is expected to order Rafales again.

Aukus, a new springboard for India and France

The signing of the Aukus partnership between Australia, the US and Britain in the Indo-Pacific could open a new and more intimate era of cooperation between India and France. Decompressed by Australia's purchase of nuclear submarines, Narendra Modi and Emmanuel Macron could thus embark on cooperation in this highly sensitive area. India, which is due to commission the sixth and last Scorpene submarine (INS Vagsheer) in 2024, could also sign a new order for conventional submarines in the medium to long term to give work to the Indian shipyard MDL (Mazagon Dock Limited), which has no more submarines under construction. Commissioned at the end of January, INS Vagir, the fifth P75 submarine, joined INS Kalvari, Khanderi, Karanj and Vela which were commissioned in December 2017, September 2019, March 2021 and November 2021 respectively.

The Indian Navy also needs to acquire torpedoes to arm its submarines. Naval Group is in competition with German (Atlas Elektronik) and Italian (WASS) manufacturers. Finally, as part of the Aatmanirbhar Bharat campaign, the fuel cell-based Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system of the DRDO's Naval Materials Research Laboratory (NMRL) will be installed on board the INS Kalvari. An agreement was signed between senior officials of NMRL and Naval Group on 23 January to extend the cooperation and enter into the detailed design phase for the integration of indigenous AIP in the Kalvari class submarines. A very important agreement for the Indians. Between Paris and New Delhi, 2023 will perhaps mark the beginning of a new bromance.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

LES VOYANTS PASSENT AU VERT « FLUO » POUR LE DASSAULT AVIATION RAFALE M EN INDE.
25 mars 202323

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

DASSAULT AVIATION RAFALE M LIGHTS UP IN INDIA.
25 March 202323

Is the Clodoaldian aircraft manufacturer on the verge of achieving its best success since the start of the export marketing of its omnirole fighter? For the past 48 hours or so, most of the major general and specialised aerospace and defence media in India have been announcing the victory of the Dassault Aviation Rafale F4 with the Indian Navy. Apart from the slap in the face that this would represent for Boeing and its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, it would be the first foreign sale of the Rafale M. It would probably also be the only one, let's be very objective.

Because we can never say it enough, without the Indian Multi-Role Carrier-Borne Fighter programme, the Dassault Aviation Rafale M would have remained what it was designed to be: the mount for the pilots of the French embarked fighter. Moreover, it was designed for them and with their help, never thinking that one day it could be catapulted from a foreign flight deck under a cockade other than the hook. So you should never despair.

In fact, the more you turn the subject around, the more the Franco-Indian agitation in the aeronautical microcosm over the last two days seems logical. Between Boeing's deplorable communication on the scheduled shutdown of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet assembly line and the Rafale F3's efficiency demonstrations in the Indian Air Force, everything leads to a logical victory for Dassault Aviation with the Indian Navy.

Two and a half months ago we announced that the spring of 2023 would be decisive for the Rafale M and India. Here we are.

From Paris, from the Élysée Palace in fact, a hint came this week. The President of the Republic announced that Mr Narendra Modi, Prime Minister of India, will be the guest of honour at the 14 July 2023 parade in Paris. If Emmanuel Macron invites his Indian counterpart under the golds of the Fifth Republic, it is not only to celebrate a quarter of a century of partnership between our two countries.

In fact, when Boeing dared to claim that only the Indian contract could save the industrialization of its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, many of us thought that this smelled bad for the American aircraft manufacturer. The Indian Navy has no interest in acquiring twenty-six examples of an aircraft at the end of its service life; it has much more interest in acquiring a machine that still has a development potential of at least twenty years. So buying the Rafale F4 is pure logic.

It remains to be seen whether Narendra Modi will wait until he is in Paris to announce Dassault Aviation's victory over Boeing or whether he will do so before. And this is no longer aeronautics or defence, it is diplomacy and politics, in other words, a completely different story.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Poker 2023-01 : un Rafale M catapulté avec un missile nucléaire ASMP-A

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Poker 2023-01: a Rafale M catapulted with an ASMP-A nuclear missile

Each year, the French Air Force organizes four nuclear air raid simulation exercises. Carried out at night, they are intended to reproduce as closely as possible the various stages of this strategic operation: refuelling, aircraft escort, firing (simulated) of an ASMP-A nuclear missile, etc. However, for the very first exercise of the year 2023, Poker 2023-01, the elements of the Strategic Air Forces of the French Air Force were also accompanied by aircraft of the French Navy's Nuclear Air Force, catapulted from the flight deck of the Charles de Gaulle, sailing in the Mediterranean Sea.

Three vectors, two of which are airborne

France's nuclear deterrent relies on three different delivery systems:

• the four Le Triomphant-class nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines (SNLE), grouped together in the Force océanique stratégique (FOST) and equipped with 16 M51 strategic sea-to-ground missiles (mirvé, 6 to 10 warheads)
• the Rafale combat aircraft of the Strategic Air Forces (FAS) carrying an Air-Sol Medium-Range Improved missile (ASMP-A, single warhead)
• the Rafale M fighter planes of the Force aéronavale nucléaire (FANu), projected from the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier, also equipped with an ASMP-A

If this discreet and very secret dissuasion, it must be visible to dissuade but also to train in real conditions. With this in mind, the French Air and Space Force (AAE) organises the Poker exercise every year. Some exercises are also organised according to certain current events to remind the French power. On September 20, 2022, coincidentally or not*, while French President Emmanuel Macron was reading one of his toughest speeches at the UN (notably towards Russia and its decision to invade Ukraine), the AAE organised the Poker 2022-03 exercise.

Poker 2023-1

During the night of 2 to 29 March, the SAF organised Exercise Poker 2023-01, the very first strategic exercise for this year. The different aircraft involved simulated a strategic air raid in depth following a general pattern similar to previous Poker exercises (details in the article on Poker 2022-04);

1. regrouping of the different aircraft of the raid on Brittany
2. route to the target (Brittany -> Bay of Biscay -> Pyrenees -> Gulf of Lion)
3. offensive phase, with aerial combat between the escort and EAF fighters simulating an opposition force (OPFOR) and the strategic aircraft simulating target shooting in central France, while avoiding anti-aircraft defence.

The third phase is quite noisy for many French people sleeping peacefully in the centre of France; the Rafales have to fly at low altitude at supersonic speed in order to reproduce as closely as possible the attack and release phase of the nuclear missile. It should be noted that this is one of the Air Force's major exercises: KC-135R, A330 MRTT, Rafale, E-3F Sentry, Mirage 2000-5, etc. are mobilised. Although the figures may vary, in general about fifty different aircraft are mobilised about four times a year! It is possible to follow them in real time on the live tracking sites: the KC-135R Stratotanker and A330 MRTT air-to-air refuelling tankers and the E-3F Sentry forward airborne warning and command aircraft (AEW&C) were visible.

Naval Aviation participates

This Poker exercise is special because, in addition to incorporating an alert take-off of the various aircraft of the Strategic Air Forces, the Strategic Naval Air Force was also involved in the exercise. For the occasion, at least one Rafale M was catapulted from the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle to participate in the raid. However, it is highly likely that the French Navy also launched other aircraft from the aircraft carrier to fully simulate an ANDF strategic raid;

1. Rafale M in combat configuration
2. Rafale M tanker (nanny)
3. And possibly an E-2C Hawkeye (AEW&C)

It should be noted that the French Navy is currently the only navy in the world to have a strategic air and sea capability, thanks to the Rafale-ASMPA missile tandem. This capability had already raised questions a few years ago. However, in February 2023, Admiral Vandier, the current Chief of Staff of the French Navy, fully defended this capability: "[...] [The FANu] remains relevant because it broadens the portfolio of options for the head of the armed forces and makes the financial and technical efforts made to acquire an airborne force profitable. It is composed of a weapon system, logistics and operational standards identical to those of the Air and Space Force, with which joint training is organised.

He also stressed the protection and mobility offered by the Charles de Gaulle: "[...] on the aircraft carrier, the FANu takes advantage of the mobility of the platform [...] [which] constitutes a real air base, defended by considerable means and which can move more than 1,000 kilometres a day.

As for the vulnerability of the ship, he clearly confirmed that there is no such thing as an invulnerable system and that "In the course of a war, aircraft carriers are sunk, air bases are destroyed and aircraft are shot down."

The photo below, taken on the night of 28-29 March 2023, is one of the few images where it is possible to see an unblurred (for security reasons) ASMP-A mounted on a Rafale M.

Catapulting a Rafale M equipped with an ASMP-A missile from the Charles de Gaulle during exercise Poker 2023-01. French Navy, Sébastien Chenal

*The French Armed Forces give very little information about Poker exercises, let alone the decision to organise the exercise in question. However, a Poker exercise on the same day as the President's speech at the UN is probably not a coincidence.

 

[randomradio]

@Picdelamirand-oil

What I claimed is playing out in a real war today.

Russian S-300 'Deceiving’ F-35 Fighters As US Stealth Jets ‘Hunt’ For Kremlin's Defense Systems - USAF Commander

Since the early months of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the F-35 Lightning II stealth fighters have been patrolling the airspace over NATO’s eastern flank. These fighters are purportedly required to gather vital intelligence in addition to their stated air policing missions. At the start of...

eurasiantimes.com

According to 388th Fighter Wing Commander Col. Craig Andrle, airmen observed these dangers in Kaliningrad, a Russian territory sandwiched between Lithuania and Poland. Surface-to-air missile locations were found and identified by the F-35s, who then informed the alliance.

The F-35s tracked missile systems in Ukraine and Kaliningrad, a Russian exclave bordering NATO ally Poland. Some military experts have warned that the F-35 collected vital intelligence to pass on to Ukraine. However, no such claims have been accepted by NATO or the US Air Force.

Col. Craig Andrle said, “we weren’t crossing the border. We’re not shooting anything or dropping anything. But the jet is always sensing, gathering information. And it was doing that very, very well.”

 

[randomradio]

But it is already too late for the F-18, Boeing had said that it was able to produce your planes from 2027 and now it says that it will close its line in 2025 if it does not have a contract and in 2027 if it has one: that means that your planes will be produced in 2026 and 2027! does that seem credible to you? and even if the F-18 SH is chosen tomorrow, how long will it take for a contract to be signed? Boeing is in such a hurry that it is incompatible with Indian time and procedures. So Boeing made the decision for you, seeing that you were too slow. Because they certainly didn't buy the long lead items, including Russian titanium! This represents about 6% of the contract, or at least $180 million, and Boeing certainly didn't take this kind of risk when it saw the uncertainties that hung over this contract. Dassault can take this risk because sooner or later it will use these items on one of the French or export contracts.

Moreover, now that it knows that the chain will stop, it may need the space to produce something else, stealth tankers for example...

Once a decision is made, a contract can be signed within the same year. It's basically an FMS contract and the IN has money earmarked for this.

But yeah, if there's a delay, the C-17 saga could also repeat. And they could even add that to the price and possibly price themselves out.

 

[Bon Plan]

There are advantages and disadvantages to both.

While the Rafale line will be open for longer, the SH has a faster phase out cycle, so a lot more jets will be available for cannibalising. And the SH's engine line will remain open in India until late next decade for indigenous jets.

No such technological road map for SH than for Rafale.
Rafale will see 2070. Not the SH.

 

[Optimist]

Rafale will see 2070.

They have good drugs in France...this was what was flying 70 years ago and I won't add the 15 years from 80's. I'll be kind.
Of course the Rafale will be as relevant as these

Dassault Mystère

North American YF-93	US		1950	Prototype	2
Republic XF-96/F-84F Thunderstreak	US		1950	Production	3,428
Supermarine 528	UK		1950	Prototype	1
Supermarine 535	UK		1950	Prototype	1
Dassault Mystère	France	Fighter-bomber	1951	Production	166
de Havilland Sea Venom	UK	Carrier fighter-bomber	1951	Production	349
de Havilland DH.110 Sea Vixen	UK	Carrier fighter	1951	Production	145
Douglas F4D Skyray	US	Carrier fighter	1951	Production	422
Gloster Javelin	UK	All-weather interceptor	1951	Production	436
Grumman F-9 Cougar	US	Carrier fighter	1951	Production	1,392
Hawker Hunter	UK	Fighter-bomber	1951	Production	1,972

 

[randomradio]

No such technological road map for SH than for Rafale.
Rafale will see 2070. Not the SH.

The IN doesn't need such a long roadmap. It's currently advanced enough for the next 20 years, and an upgrade will happen after 2045 for another 15-20 years of service. The upgrade is in line with what the USN can get when the jet's on its final leg. The USN could upgrade SHs after 2045 for a 2060 service exit. It could be advanced enough, like the Canadian and Marine Hornet upgrade with a GaN radar today. So both forces will get rid of their last jets around similar times. And the SH will get drones faster than the Rafale, especially the ones coming out of NgAD.

The IAF needs a 2070 roadmap 'cause they want to produce jets until the last 2030s or early 2040s, then an upgade is necessary in 2060, so a roadmap until 2070 and service exit in the 2080s.

As of today, Rafale M is cleared for 6500 hours (26 years of service, requires SLEP) whereas SH can do 9000-10000 hours (up to 40 years without SLEP). This is going to play a huge part when they calculate the roadmap. And of course costs.

 

[Bon Plan]

The IN doesn't need such a long roadmap. It's currently advanced enough for the next 20 years, and an upgrade will happen after 2045 for another 15-20 years of service. The upgrade is in line with what the USN can get when the jet's on its final leg. The USN could upgrade SHs after 2045 for a 2060 service exit. It could be advanced enough, like the Canadian and Marine Hornet upgrade with a GaN radar today. So both forces will get rid of their last jets around similar times. And the SH will get drones faster than the Rafale, especially the ones coming out of NgAD.

The IAF needs a 2070 roadmap 'cause they want to produce jets until the last 2030s or early 2040s, then an upgade is necessary in 2060, so a roadmap until 2070 and service exit in the 2080s.

As of today, Rafale M is cleared for 6500 hours (26 years of service, requires SLEP) whereas SH can do 9000-10000 hours (up to 40 years without SLEP). This is going to play a huge part when they calculate the roadmap. And of course costs.

SH for a classical use has a 9000 - 10000 hours lifespan. Not used on carrier as Rafale M.
Compare in this case SH and Rafale B/C

 

[randomradio]

SH for a classical use has a 9000 - 10000 hours lifespan. Not used on carrier as Rafale M.
Compare in this case SH and Rafale B/C

SH for carrier use is 10000 hours. For conventional use, it is apparently more with normal wings.

 

[Optimist]

SH for carrier use is 10000 hours. For conventional use, it is apparently more with normal wings.

Bon plan isn't the worst and he has some reasoning. I've even seen him concede a point.
Though in general, you aren't really going to factcheck a frog are you? I've told you they are deceitful trolls.

 

[randomradio]

Normal wings? I only saw the same wings for all.

So that's reason enough to say publicly quoted figures are for the carrier version.

Boeing delivers first Block III Super Hornets to the US Navy

The Block III configuration of the Super Hornet will bring greater connectivity, computing power and survivability to the Navy's fourth-generation fighter jet.

www.defensenews.com

The Block III jets are also built for 10,000 flight hours compared to 6,000 hours for earlier jets, and they’ve been made stealthier and more survivable with additional treatments that reduce their radar cross section, Tebo explained.

As per Boeing, the air force version for MMRCA with normal wings would have a lot more than 10000 hours.

 

[Bon Plan]

So that's reason enough to say publicly quoted figures are for the carrier version.

Boeing delivers first Block III Super Hornets to the US Navy

The Block III configuration of the Super Hornet will bring greater connectivity, computing power and survivability to the Navy's fourth-generation fighter jet.

www.defensenews.com

The Block III jets are also built for 10,000 flight hours compared to 6,000 hours for earlier jets, and they’ve been made stealthier and more survivable with additional treatments that reduce their radar cross section, Tebo explained.

As per Boeing, the air force version for MMRCA with normal wings would have a lot more than 10000 hours.

It is not clearly said it is for a carrier use.
But may be. At least a first explanation about the heavy wet weight of the bird compared to his load.

 

[randomradio]

It is not clearly said it is for a carrier use.
But may be. At least a first explanation about the heavy wet weight of the bird compared to his load.

10000 hours is from carriers without SLEP.

F-15EX does 20000 hours from a runway without SLEP.

So they have found some way to increase service life drastically. It could easily go even higher with SLEP.