Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Concluding MoUs are not considered towards offsets. But creating actual value addition is.

Are you telling me that $4-5 billion of offset is already discharged? How about half of it?

I would say there should be more for penalty missing actual contracting deadlines. It's been 7 years. Now who is running on IST?

Rafale vendors yet to confirm technology transfer under offsets: CAG

DRDO was to receive assistance for developing LCA engine

www.thehindu.com

Dassault Aviation, MBDA yet to fulfil offset obligations under Rafale deal: CAG | India News - Times of India

India News: NEW DELHI: French aerospace major Dassault Aviation and European missile maker MBDA are yet to fulfil their offset obligations of offering high techno.

m.timesofindia.com

Yes, the contract mentions possible offsets, but this is not binding; what is binding is the total sum of the offsets achieved. So Dassault Aviation and MBDA initially proposed to meet 30% of the compensation obligation by offering DRDO cutting-edge technologies, but this was impossible, a joint project had to be drawn up in which the French would be in the minority, so DRDO would have to invest more than 50%.

DRDO refused, saying it was too expensive! So we had to find other investments, and for the moment we have no problems. Our investment trajectory is in line with the contract.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Concluding MoUs are not considered towards offsets. But creating actual value addition is.

Are you telling me that $4-5 billion of offset is already discharged? How about half of it?

I didn't say MOU, I said partnership contract to develop together. For example, the development of the new OSF with a new IRST.

And the obligations start in 2019 and generally last about ten years, because we can't go as fast with the offsets as we can with the project that has already been signed and which has tight deadlines.

So 50% of $8 billion is $4 billion divided into 4 (MDBA, SAFRAN, DASSAULT, THALES), which is $1 billion per company over 10 years, or $100 million per year per company.

Well, that's fine for the moment!

 

[Ashwin]

Yes, the contract mentions possible offsets, but this is not binding; what is binding is the total sum of the offsets achieved. So Dassault Aviation and MBDA initially proposed to meet 30% of the compensation obligation by offering DRDO cutting-edge technologies, but this was impossible, a joint project had to be drawn up in which the French would be in the minority, so DRDO would have to invest more than 50%.

DRDO refused, saying it was too expensive! So we had to find other investments, and for the moment we have no problems. Our investment trajectory is in line with the contract.

Correct, you always knew it's impossible yet went ahead with the it.

Let's take out the DRDO part. What happened to remaining 30% ? Where is the Falcon assembly? Or anything related.

A huge industrial advantage? Sorry I don't see it.

What is that you dont see here? They have a local production line. That too for $5.4 billion.

Brazil opens Gripen E/F final assembly line at Embraer plant

The Brazilian air force will receive its first locally-assembled Saab Gripen E fighters in 2025, following the inauguration on 9 May of a new production line at Embraer's plant in Gaviao Peixoto, Sao Paulo State.

www.flightglobal.com

2020 and 2021 news. In 2 years a lot of things may occured.
If there is no more recent news despite a purchase of Rafale M nearly secured and some more for IAF on the agenda, that means that the solution is on track, no?

Nothing happened after that. Your partner went bankrupt. Choosing a known corrupt entity without any engineering background came back to bite you.

I believe that if there were no corruption allegations, a follow-up order would have already been placed.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Thales approach:
India’s “Make in India” policy is fully supported by Thales. Our strategy of developing industrial footprint in India is in line with the government’s aim to develop the defence base of the country. With this as the backdrop, Thales has formed various co-operative partnerships with public and private sector industries, bringing in its expertise in delivering high-end technology solutions.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL): Thales has been working closely with HAL for over 50 years. We provide high-end avionics to equip the platforms that HAL designs.

Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL): Incorporated in August 2014 as BEL-Thales Systems Limited (BTSL), this JV is dedicated to civilian and select ground-based military radars.

Reliance Aerostructure Limited: Created in 2017, this JV with Reliance Aerostructure leverages Thales’ offset commitment as part of the Rafale contract, developing Indian capabilities to integrate and maintain Radar and Electronic Warfare sensors. Other Cooperations include Bharat Dynamics Limited, a Government of India enterprise, Kalyani Group and MKU among others.

Growing with universities: Thales is partnering with the Central Manufacturing Technology Institute (CMTI) of India since 2022 and IIIT Delhi since 2021 for advanced collaborative research and development in the field of Open Hardware. The Group is also partnering with the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) Madras, IIT Delhi, IIT Bombay and Indian Institute of Science (IISc) Bangalore for jointly supervised PhD fellowship programmes over the past years.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Correct, you always knew it's impossible yet went ahead with the it.

Let's take out the DRDO part. What happened to remaining 30% ? Where is the Falcon assembly? Or anything related.


What is that you dont see here? They have a local production line. That too for $5.4 billion.

Brazil opens Gripen E/F final assembly line at Embraer plant

The Brazilian air force will receive its first locally-assembled Saab Gripen E fighters in 2025, following the inauguration on 9 May of a new production line at Embraer's plant in Gaviao Peixoto, Sao Paulo State.

www.flightglobal.com

Nothing happened after that. Your partner went bankrupt. Choosing a known corrupt entity without any engineering background came back to bite you.

I believe that if there were no corruption allegations, a follow-up order would have already been placed.

Dassault Aviation Eyes Full Control Of DRAL Amid Reliance Defence’s Cash Crunch

In a move highlighting the financial hurdles Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence reportedly faces, French aerospace and defence giant Dassault Aviation has initiated discussions to purchase the stake in their shared venture, Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL). The joint venture (JV), situated in Nagpur, has recently stagnated due to insufficient funds for its expansion, sources within the industry revealed.

Currently, Reliance Defence holds 51% of the venture, with Dassault Aviation owning the remaining 49%. The partnership was established in 2016, shortly after India signed a €7.878 billion agreement for 36 flyaway Rafale jets, with plans for DRAL to produce the complete Falcon business jet in Nagpur. However, the financial turbulence facing Ambani has said to have derailed these ambitions.

With India allowing 100% foreign direct investment (FDI) on a selective basis, Dassault Aviation seems to be confident about receiving the required clearances to proceed with the buyout. Initially considering an alternate Indian partnership, Dassault Aviation has now resolved to proceed solo.

Located within Nagpur’s MIHAN Special Economic Zone (SEZ), the DRAL facility has been tasked with creating parts for the Rafale fighters, but the rate of production has waned, insiders have noted. Despite being initially constructed to manufacture Falcon jet components, the factory shifted its focus in 2019, beginning the production of Rafale parts.

The shift in manufacturing focus was a part of the offset obligations included in the 2016 Rafale contract, mandating that half the contract’s value be invested back into India. If Dassault Aviation secures the contract to manufacture an additional 114 fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF), it has expressed interest in expanding its manufacturing capabilities in India.

As the IAF faces a significant drop in squadron numbers, it is reported to be considering issuing a tender for 114 new fighters. Currently operating 36 Rafale, the IAF is expected to decommission its MiG 21s, Jaguars, and MiG 29s by 2029-30, leaving it significantly under its sanctioned strength of 42 Squadrons.

Concurrently, the government plans to purchase 26 Rafale Marine, a naval variant with higher ‘Make in India’ components than the IAF variant. Despite the prospect of the Nagpur facility undertaking all the manufacturing for these new aircraft, the relatively small numbers are unlikely to enable a more extensive indigenous development programme.

 

[Ashwin]

Dassault Aviation Eyes Full Control Of DRAL Amid Reliance Defence’s Cash Crunch

In a move highlighting the financial hurdles Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence reportedly faces, French aerospace and defence giant Dassault Aviation has initiated discussions to purchase the stake in their shared venture, Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL). The joint venture (JV), situated in Nagpur, has recently stagnated due to insufficient funds for its expansion, sources within the industry revealed.

Currently, Reliance Defence holds 51% of the venture, with Dassault Aviation owning the remaining 49%. The partnership was established in 2016, shortly after India signed a €7.878 billion agreement for 36 flyaway Rafale jets, with plans for DRAL to produce the complete Falcon business jet in Nagpur. However, the financial turbulence facing Ambani has said to have derailed these ambitions.

With India allowing 100% foreign direct investment (FDI) on a selective basis, Dassault Aviation seems to be confident about receiving the required clearances to proceed with the buyout. Initially considering an alternate Indian partnership, Dassault Aviation has now resolved to proceed solo.

Located within Nagpur’s MIHAN Special Economic Zone (SEZ), the DRAL facility has been tasked with creating parts for the Rafale fighters, but the rate of production has waned, insiders have noted. Despite being initially constructed to manufacture Falcon jet components, the factory shifted its focus in 2019, beginning the production of Rafale parts.

The shift in manufacturing focus was a part of the offset obligations included in the 2016 Rafale contract, mandating that half the contract’s value be invested back into India. If Dassault Aviation secures the contract to manufacture an additional 114 fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF), it has expressed interest in expanding its manufacturing capabilities in India.

As the IAF faces a significant drop in squadron numbers, it is reported to be considering issuing a tender for 114 new fighters. Currently operating 36 Rafale, the IAF is expected to decommission its MiG 21s, Jaguars, and MiG 29s by 2029-30, leaving it significantly under its sanctioned strength of 42 Squadrons.

Concurrently, the government plans to purchase 26 Rafale Marine, a naval variant with higher ‘Make in India’ components than the IAF variant. Despite the prospect of the Nagpur facility undertaking all the manufacturing for these new aircraft, the relatively small numbers are unlikely to enable a more extensive indigenous development programme.

Its been 4-5 years that we have known Anil is near bankruptcy. Why the late realisation ? Why partner with the likes of TATA or L&T. Just like what Airbus did.

Dassault wants full control. They sabotaged the MMRCA (by not agreeing to work with HAL as per the tender terms) and then by choosing an inexperienced partner for the joint venture. Now they want to go for the ultimate goal of having a full subsidiary.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Its been 4-5 years that we have known Anil is near bankruptcy. Why the late realisation ? Why partner with the likes of TATA or L&T. Just like what Airbus did.

Dassault wants full control. They sabotaged the MMRCA (by not agreeing to work with HAL as per the tender terms) and then by choosing an inexperienced partner for the joint venture. Now they want to go for the ultimate goal of having a full subsidiary.

From Dassault point of vue it's not bad......and it's not corruption, it's just business

In fact DRAL is only linked to RADAG (Reliance Anil Dhirubhai Ambani Group) because RATL (the first small private-private JV in which Dassault participated as part of the MMRCA in 2007, to comply with the call for tenders, which required a public partner (HAL) and a private partner to be chosen by the foreign OEM competitor (in this case Dassault)) was then owned by Mukesh, who heads RIL (Reliance Industries Limited), which is not the same conglomerate as RADAG, his younger brother Anil's company. RATL was sold by Mukesh to Anil in 2014, at a time when the Dassault-HAL talks were stalling and Mukesh wanted to get rid of it, unable to see the light at the end of the tunnel. The contract for the 126 Rafales, 108 of which were licensed to HAL, was cancelled shortly afterwards. So, without the sale of RATL, Anil Ambani would never have been involved in the Rafale.

 

[Ashwin]

From Dassault point of vue it's not bad......and it's not corruption, it's just business

Oh i agree,

I was just trying to establish that you don't always go by what's agreed upon in good faith.

Imagine the naivety to think french transferring tech to DRDO based on offsets.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Oh i agree,

I was just trying to establish that you don't always go by what's agreed upon in good faith.

Imagine the naivety to think french transferring tech to DRDO based on offsets.

But we're still trying, but it's very difficult in India; we're more successful in other countries.

 

[Ashwin]

But we're still trying, but it's very difficult in India; we're more successful in other countries.

At the same time, the prize is much larger than what any other country can offer. There was a clear visibility of ~200 airframes and we can afford it. It is a trustworthy sovereign with a huge human capital that you could take advantage of in the long run. (As a company)

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

At the same time, the prize is much larger than what any other country can offer. There was a clear visibility of ~200 airframes and we can afford it. It is a trustworthy sovereign with a huge human capital that you could take advantage of in the long run. (As a company)

The price seems higher because our contracts are all-inclusive, whereas others add contracts far from the media on top of the main contract. But the fly away price of the Rafale, $95 million, is not outrageous. Of course, it's not a Russian or Chinese price, but we manage to sell them at that price.

 

[Ashwin]

The price seems higher because our contracts are all-inclusive, whereas others add contracts far from the media on top of the main contract. But the fly away price of the Rafale, $95 million, is not outrageous. Of course, it's not a Russian or Chinese price, but we manage to sell them at that price.

I meant prize for Dassault.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I meant prize for Dassault.

Yes, but we'll get there, Dassault is very tenacious.

 

[Hydra]

I didn't say MOU, I said partnership contract to develop together. For example, the development of the new OSF with a new IRST.

And the obligations start in 2019 and generally last about ten years, because we can't go as fast with the offsets as we can with the project that has already been signed and which has tight deadlines.

So 50% of $8 billion is $4 billion divided into 4 (MDBA, SAFRAN, DASSAULT, THALES), which is $1 billion per company over 10 years, or $100 million per year per company.

Well, that's fine for the moment!

If my memory is correct, @vstoljockey blamed dassault/mbda for cheating modi in Rafale deal when comes to offset obligation.

 

[Hydra]

I believe that if there were no corruption allegations, a follow-up order would have already been placed.

So much of optimism on a government which placed minimilistc orders, shaving down original requirements to minimal one.
No the government just take a ride on curruption allehation and used an excuse not to give more orders.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

If my memory is correct, @vstoljockey blamed dassault/mbda for cheating modi in Rafale deal when comes to offset obligation.

I like @vstoljockey, in fact I met him in Delhi, but he's the kind of guy who wants to buy planes at half price on the pretext that we'll sell a lot of them later. But if we sell a lot of planes at half price, we go bankrupt, especially with Indien time.

 

[Ashwin]

So much of optimism on a government which placed minimilistc orders, shaving down original requirements to minimal one.
No the government just take a ride on curruption allehation and used an excuse not to give more orders.

If it was UPA and pappu. We would still be in tender stage. Better than nothing.

PS: To take you seriously, use a basic spell check next time

 

[RASALGHUL]

but it's very difficult in India

Why?

we're more successful in other countries.

Which other countries?

 

[suryakiran]

If it was UPA and pappu. We would still be in tender stage. Better than nothing.

If this was UPA, the order would have been executed 10 years back. The Dassault partner would have been company backed by Mango people family member. It would have been modern version of Maruti saga. And our entire Tejas line would have gone the way of the Marut.

 

[Hydra]

If it was UPA and pappu. We would still be in tender stage. Better than nothing.

PS: To take you seriously, use a basic spell check next time

UPA had concluded the tender, that too with in a time frame of 10 years. Our 56" is in chair for the last 9 years, did he even start the RFP? Oh yeah, its IAF's job. Let's blame IAF npt the 56".

Why?

Which other countries?

UAE is had placed order for 80 i guess.