PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

Can forum people finally admit the SU-57 isn't good? Like the Russia worshipping can end now.

Rafale is superior which is hilarious. Good job French.

FGFA will never happen.
You mark my words that FGFA will happen. But only after IAF has ordered the Rafales in the numbers they want. They are blackmailing the govt to get a toy of their liking. We may not have FGFA but Su-57 being produced as a replacement for Su-30MKIs. AMCA is a story for 2035 and by than IAF wud have lost another 120 odd aircraft due to crashes and normal attrition due to age.
 
Sputnik is pure propaganda. Not a word about India canceling the FGFA, but they run 1000 articles on the F-35 sucking or getting shot down by the S-200.
 
Can forum people finally admit the SU-57 isn't good? Like the Russia worshipping can end now.

Rafale is superior which is hilarious. Good job French.

FGFA will never happen.

FGFA is just a term, it will simply get renamed. The program itself has only been delayed, the requirement has not simply vanished.

1. You should understand that the program is highly secretive, the stuff you have read in articles has been deliberate disinformation. The pro-French faction within the IAF have deliberately used obsolete information to mislead the public, nothing else. That's why you shouldn't pay attention to that. Their criticisms have only been about the first stage prototypes which do not have the full stealth treatment, including the lack of new engines. They haven't spoken about the Stage 2 program or even the AMCA. So they are criticizing the program without actually giving away anything.

2. Going for a full scale development program for FGFA is pointless. It's better to modernize their version instead, that's cheaper and less risky.

You should rather be relying on what the expert panel has said.
India Should Co-Produce Stealth Fighter With Russia, Defense Ministry Panel Says
A high-powered panel instated by the Indian Ministry of Defense, headed by retired Air Marshal Simhakutty Varthaman, in a new report purportedly recommends that India push ahead with one of the most high-profile joint India-Russia defense programs, the co-development and production of the the Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), known in India as the Perspective Multirole Fighter (PMF), according to local media reports.

$8.63-billion advanced fighter aircraft project with Russia put on ice
Opponents of the FGFAhave even argued that the project would duplicate and hinder the indigenous AMCA project. However, last July, an experts group headed by Air Marshal (Retired) S Varthaman, set up to consider this question, ruled that there were no conflict lines between the FGFAand AMCA. It stated that the technological expertise that would be gained from working with Russian experts would benefit the AMCA project.

The expert panel has given the green light to the program. If this panel has agreed to the FGFA, then it is most definitely a top notch fighter.

The program is being delayed in order to allow the unhindered procurement of new aircraft to make up the squadrons draw-down. The FGFA itself will not be ready anytime before 2028 and the funds required to develop it will only eat into the IAF's procurement budget.
 
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No deal: Why Russia won't develop an ‘Indian’ Su-57

No deal: Why Russia won't develop an ‘Indian’ Su-57
SCIENCE & TECH

APR 25, 2018

NIKOLAI LITOVKIN

5ae0501c15e9f92b790efd95.jpg


Global Look Press

  • 5717
Russia has refused to reveal the production secrets of fifth-generation jet fighters ‘for free’; India, for its part, has decided that a deal is not appropriate for an aircraft ‘that is not up to being called the fighter plane of the new millennium’.

At the end of April India pulled out of a joint program with Russia to develop the advanced multirole Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) based on the Su-57. India explained its move by saying that the Russian design doesn't meet the stated requirements, while the plane’s Russian-designed combat avionics, radars, and sensors are not up to fifth generation standards.

At the same time, India says that it is prepared to consider revising its plans in the future and even to purchase serially-produced aircraft from Russia if they come out on top in a tender.

So why has India refused to finance the development of the project to design a fifth-generation jet fighter for its Air Force?

The stumbling block
The joint project with India was problematic from the very beginning and, according to experts, the refusal to develop the "Indian" Su-57 has nothing to do with the aircraft's failure to meet the requirements of the new era.

Initially, in 2007, the sides signed a contract under which the Indian side invested to the tune of $300m in the development of the design and technical blueprint for the future aircraft. At the same time, the subsequent cost of research, first prototypes, and development of a full production cycle totaled $6bn, which Russia paid for out of its own budget.

"That is where the disagreements started. Launching production of Su-57 fighters in India meant passing all the technology of the new jet fighters to Delhi. The Indians decided that, since they had invested $300m in a project with a total cost of $6bn, Russia would immediately pass on all its research. But since there was no such clause in the contract, Moscow refused to reveal all the information to the investors," Pavel Bulat, director of the Mechanics and Energy Systems international laboratory at the University of Information Technologies, Mechanics and Optics, told Russia Beyond.

At the same time, following the maiden flight of an experimental prototype in 2010, India said it was ready to purchase 214 FGFAs (the Indian version of the Su-57) but only if they were produced exclusively on Indian territory.

According to Bulat, Russia is prepared to pass on all the technology and reveal the production secrets of the Su-57 jet fighter to India for no less than $5bn. The Indians, in turn, say that for this money they can independently develop a fifth generation fighter from scratch themselves.

"India believes that this would lead to it fully covering the cost of developing the Su-57. Yes, it is true. But the logic of the Sukhoi company is the following: "You don't want to pay $5bn for the technology and production of the world's best jet fighters on your territory? Then develop such an aircraft yourselves. It is that simple," Bulat explained.

The Indians will be able to buy the first serially-produced prototypes from Russia in a year or two when the Sukhoi company develops a full production cycle.

At the same time the arms manufacturers are not hiding the fact that the aircraft still needs a lot of work. Still, in early December 2017 they achieved a breakthrough and got the first Su-57 with a new engine into the air.

What benefits does the new ‘heart’ bring?
After tests, the new engine will allow the Su-57 to accelerate to supersonic speed in dry thrust and maintain this speed for the entire flight.

"It will be traveling at Mach 1.6, which means around 2,600 km/h depending on the nature of the locations being overflown. The engine will also significantly improve the Su-57's low signature thanks to the use of new composite materials," Professor Vadim Kozyulin of the Academy of Military Sciences told Russia Beyond.

He said the designers will be able to fully integrate the engine and work out all the details by about 2020. In addition, the Sukhoi company still has to finish developing the airborne radar and also sort out the remaining intricacies involved in the design of the airframe, which, according to the expert, is the most up-to-date among all existing fifth-generation planes.
 
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No deal: Why Russia won't develop an ‘Indian’ Su-57

No deal: Why Russia won't develop an ‘Indian’ Su-57
SCIENCE & TECH

APR 25, 2018

NIKOLAI LITOVKIN

5ae0501c15e9f92b790efd95.jpg


Global Look Press

  • 5717
Russia has refused to reveal the production secrets of fifth-generation jet fighters ‘for free’; India, for its part, has decided that a deal is not appropriate for an aircraft ‘that is not up to being called the fighter plane of the new millennium’.

At the end of April India pulled out of a joint program with Russia to develop the advanced multirole Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) based on the Su-57. India explained its move by saying that the Russian design doesn't meet the stated requirements, while the plane’s Russian-designed combat avionics, radars, and sensors are not up to fifth generation standards.

At the same time, India says that it is prepared to consider revising its plans in the future and even to purchase serially-produced aircraft from Russia if they come out on top in a tender.

So why has India refused to finance the development of the project to design a fifth-generation jet fighter for its Air Force?

The stumbling block
The joint project with India was problematic from the very beginning and, according to experts, the refusal to develop the "Indian" Su-57 has nothing to do with the aircraft's failure to meet the requirements of the new era.

Initially, in 2007, the sides signed a contract under which the Indian side invested to the tune of $300m in the development of the design and technical blueprint for the future aircraft. At the same time, the subsequent cost of research, first prototypes, and development of a full production cycle totaled $6bn, which Russia paid for out of its own budget.

"That is where the disagreements started. Launching production of Su-57 fighters in India meant passing all the technology of the new jet fighters to Delhi. The Indians decided that, since they had invested $300m in a project with a total cost of $6bn, Russia would immediately pass on all its research. But since there was no such clause in the contract, Moscow refused to reveal all the information to the investors," Pavel Bulat, director of the Mechanics and Energy Systems international laboratory at the University of Information Technologies, Mechanics and Optics, told Russia Beyond.

At the same time, following the maiden flight of an experimental prototype in 2010, India said it was ready to purchase 214 FGFAs (the Indian version of the Su-57) but only if they were produced exclusively on Indian territory.

According to Bulat, Russia is prepared to pass on all the technology and reveal the production secrets of the Su-57 jet fighter to India for no less than $5bn. The Indians, in turn, say that for this money they can independently develop a fifth generation fighter from scratch themselves.

"India believes that this would lead to it fully covering the cost of developing the Su-57. Yes, it is true. But the logic of the Sukhoi company is the following: "You don't want to pay $5bn for the technology and production of the world's best jet fighters on your territory? Then develop such an aircraft yourselves. It is that simple," Bulat explained.

The Indians will be able to buy the first serially-produced prototypes from Russia in a year or two when the Sukhoi company develops a full production cycle.

At the same time the arms manufacturers are not hiding the fact that the aircraft still needs a lot of work. Still, in early December 2017 they achieved a breakthrough and got the first Su-57 with a new engine into the air.

What benefits does the new ‘heart’ bring?
After tests, the new engine will allow the Su-57 to accelerate to supersonic speed in dry thrust and maintain this speed for the entire flight.

"It will be traveling at Mach 1.6, which means around 2,600 km/h depending on the nature of the locations being overflown. The engine will also significantly improve the Su-57's low signature thanks to the use of new composite materials," Professor Vadim Kozyulin of the Academy of Military Sciences told Russia Beyond.

He said the designers will be able to fully integrate the engine and work out all the details by about 2020. In addition, the Sukhoi company still has to finish developing the airborne radar and also sort out the remaining intricacies involved in the design of the airframe, which, according to the expert, is the most up-to-date among all existing fifth-generation planes.

The propaganda is strong in this one. Gotta tear is down as usual.

Russia has refused to reveal the production secrets of fifth-generation jet fighters ‘for free’;

We have already finished the paper design of the FGFA. Why will the Russians hesitate to provide production design after that?

India, for its part, has decided that a deal is not appropriate for an aircraft ‘that is not up to being called the fighter plane of the new millennium’.

The Vice Air Marshal (from the Rafale faction) has been misquoted.

What he said is "the current prototypes" don't come up to 5th gen level. And that it needs a new engine as well. Everybody knows that the PAK FA program is yet to complete while the FGFA has a lot of design changes to come up to IAF standards.

It's really funny to think that the Russians with all their experience cannot design a 5th gen fighter, but we can with the AMCA? Even propaganda has to make sense to find believers. The AMCA were designed only a few years after FGFA.

India explained its move by saying that the Russian design doesn't meet the stated requirements, while the plane’s Russian-designed combat avionics, radars, and sensors are not up to fifth generation standards.

Nope. India's explanation is we can't afford it. Especially when we have to buy 800 new fighter jets over the next 15 years.

At the same time, India says that it is prepared to consider revising its plans in the future and even to purchase serially-produced aircraft from Russia if they come out on top in a tender.

Nope. No tender. We will buy it directly as GTG.

According to Bulat, Russia is prepared to pass on all the technology and reveal the production secrets of the Su-57 jet fighter to India for no less than $5bn. The Indians, in turn, say that for this money they can independently develop a fifth generation fighter from scratch themselves.

Another bullcrap. The Varthaman panel has already confirmed both FGFA and AMCA do not conflict with each other. And the cost is $3.7B, round it off to $4B if you want to. Where are all these other numbers coming from? A billion bucks is a lot of money, you know.
 
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So the FGFA is still doing fine.

Посол Индии в России: Нью-Дели не откажется от покупки С-400
In an interview with TASS, Indian Ambassador to Russia Pankaj Saran, recently appointed deputy national security adviser, spoke about the S-400 negotiations, the situation with the FGFA project and the prospects for cooperation in nuclear energy in third countries.

- Previously, the media reported that India withdrew from the joint project with Russia to build a fifth generation FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) fighter. Can you confirm this?

- I can only say that the negotiations are continuing, thanks to which there is already a clearer understanding of each other's priorities and plans for the future.
 
Russia orders twelve Su-57 stealth fighters

The Russian Ministry of Defence (MoD) has awarded JSC Sukhoi Company contract for the supply of 12 Su-57 fifth-generation jet fighters, according to a 30 June statement by the lenta.runews agency.

“The first contract for 12 aircraft has been agreed on, and the deliveries under this contract will begin shortly,” Deputy Defense Minister Alexey Krivoruchko told reporters at a briefing in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

According to the source, the first new fifth-generation jet fighters will be ready in 2019 to delivery for Russian Aerospace Forces.

The aircraft will be manufactured at Komsomolsk-na-Amur plant (KNAAPO) in Komsomolsk-on-Amur.

The Su-57 made its maiden flight eight years ago. CEO of Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation Yuri Slyusar said the first batch of Su-57s could come into service in 2019.

Development of this aircraft commenced in 2001. A prototype of Su-57 (T-50) was revealed and made its maiden flight in 2010. In 2014 a pre-production prototype was delivered to the Russian Air Force for trials and evaluation.
 
So the FGFA is still doing fine.

Посол Индии в России: Нью-Дели не откажется от покупки С-400
In an interview with TASS, Indian Ambassador to Russia Pankaj Saran, recently appointed deputy national security adviser, spoke about the S-400 negotiations, the situation with the FGFA project and the prospects for cooperation in nuclear energy in third countries.

- Previously, the media reported that India withdrew from the joint project with Russia to build a fifth generation FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) fighter. Can you confirm this?

- I can only say that the negotiations are continuing, thanks to which there is already a clearer understanding of each other's priorities and plans for the future.

अर्ज़ किया है :-

इश्क ने 'गालिब' निकम्मा कर दिया,
वरना हम भी आदमी थे काम के.

उनके आने से जो आ जाती है चेहरे पर रौनक,
वो समझते हैं कि बीमार का हाल अच्छा है.

हमको मालूम है जन्नत की हकीकत लेकिन,
दिल को बहलाने को ‘गालिब' ये ख्याल अच्छा है.


India has pulled out of FGFA/any other nomenclature* Program with Russia.

Now you can quote any perception of yours to keep your belief. But it is 100% confirmed news. No Russian 5th gen plane is coming in any manner what-so-ever.
 
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अर्ज़ किया है :-

इश्क ने 'गालिब' निकम्मा कर दिया,
वरना हम भी आदमी थे काम के.


उनके आने से जो आ जाती है चेहरे पर रौनक,
वो समझते हैं कि बीमार का हाल अच्छा है.


हमको मालूम है जन्नत की हकीकत लेकिन,
दिल को बहलाने को ‘गालिब' ये ख्याल अच्छा है.


India has pulled out of FGFA/any other nomenclature* Program with Russia.

Now you can quote any perception of yours to keep your belief. But it is 100% confirmed news. No Russian 5th gen plane is coming in any manner what-so-ever.

FGFA is still active as long as the guy who has as high a clearance as Ajit Doval says the FGFA is active.

Indian Ambassador to Russia Pankaj Saran, recently appointed deputy national security adviser
 
FGFA is still active as long as the guy who has as high a clearance as Ajit Doval says the FGFA is active.

Indian Ambassador to Russia Pankaj Saran, recently appointed deputy national security adviser

What he said was in diplomatese, it gets translated as, "Its basically dead, unless we get what we want, that road is still open".
 
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What he said was in diplomatese, it gets translated as, "Its basically dead, unless we get what we want, that road is still open".

The fact is it's good enough to know it's still ongoing. Until there's official confirmation, it's useless to say there is no more FGFA.

The Varthaman panel green lit both FGFA and AMCA.
 
What he said was in diplomatese, it gets translated as, "Its basically dead, unless we get what we want, that road is still open".
Let's consider the situation. China's attempts at building a 5 th gen FA will attain maturity by the mid 2020's. This leaves India with no options but to get a 5 th gen FA. What's on offer ? The F-35 & the PAKFA . Between the 2 , which option do you think we'd exercise especially if you consider CAATSA coming into effect and the US's attempts at browbeating us ?

PAKFA is yet to mature . It's expected to do so by the mid 2020's. While the collaboration might be off , I think we'd go in for outright purchase with customised solutions a la the Sukhoi 30 MKI .
 
The fact is it's good enough to know it's still ongoing. Until there's official confirmation, it's useless to say there is no more FGFA.

The Varthaman panel green lit both FGFA and AMCA.

Not happening. FGFA is dead. You can rue the fact over some fine single malt if you want... while it's raining outside.

Reports are reports. It had nothing to do with AMCA. Russian Su 57 isn't what we want.
 
Let's consider the situation. China's attempts at building a 5 th gen FA will attain maturity by the mid 2020's. This leaves India with no options but to get a 5 th gen FA. What's on offer ? The F-35 & the PAKFA . Between the 2 , which option do you think we'd exercise especially if you consider CAATSA coming into effect and the US's attempts at browbeating us ?

PAKFA is yet to mature . It's expected to do so by the mid 2020's. While the collaboration might be off , I think we'd go in for outright purchase with customised solutions a la the Sukhoi 30 MKI .
The best response we could have done is get our economy at par with them. Still we did pick up their *stealth bird with our radars. That tells you it is anything but stealth.
 
Not happening. FGFA is dead. You can rue the fact over some fine single malt if you want... while it's raining outside.

Reports are reports. It had nothing to do with AMCA. Russian Su 57 isn't what we want.

As I said, I'd rather wait for actual govt confirmation instead of relying on rumours.