china detected our f-22's because they had radar reflectors on em intentionally adding rcs. i'd imagine china did the same thing.
PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Ashwin
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There are two things which you undermine with your statement.
How much do you really know about J-20s most of it western media which is living on "leaked" info and their own analysis without really getting close to the plane.
Let us assume that J-20 is not stealthy or VLO, but does it mean that Su-30 MKI can take down J-20? It is armed with two internal bays which would allow it Longer ranged missiles than presently what we use on Su-30 MKI,
Thus IF, the PLAAF has it, then they would be able to (in theory) detect and fire on Su-30 MKI first with their long-range missiles. Thus they might detect and fire first That itself is an advantage to PLAAF.
The Chinese have at least another known project that is ripoff of F-22 and its called J-31.
If you are indian leader, would you be able to take a chance on this, would it not mean undermining a strong and capable enemy?
How much do you really know about J-20s most of it western media which is living on "leaked" info and their own analysis without really getting close to the plane.
Let us assume that J-20 is not stealthy or VLO, but does it mean that Su-30 MKI can take down J-20? It is armed with two internal bays which would allow it Longer ranged missiles than presently what we use on Su-30 MKI,
Thus IF, the PLAAF has it, then they would be able to (in theory) detect and fire on Su-30 MKI first with their long-range missiles. Thus they might detect and fire first That itself is an advantage to PLAAF.
The Chinese have at least another known project that is ripoff of F-22 and its called J-31.
If you are indian leader, would you be able to take a chance on this, would it not mean undermining a strong and capable enemy?
slight correction here. the J-31 is a ripoff of the F-35.
Mass production would reduce costs, but that would also effect the quality, Thus if they produce Su-57 then the quality may not be top notch, It is difficult to mass produce and yet keep consistency in quality.
Also the plane cost would not be cheap, (lets assume around 100 million a plane at least) how many third world countries would be able to buy 100s of these planes? Even if you see the Cheaper Su-30 / 35 is ordered in dozen, and Su-57 being more advanced and complex would be more expenive, thus you might see countries buying maybe half a dozen at the most but that might make their logistics too expensive and complicated to manage.
Sukhoi has two plants, and so roughly 50 planes per year should be possible (lets say) but who will buy so many of these? The production of a year itself will take care of all the demand (say Iran, India and Syria)
So to keep the price cheaper, Russia would have to water it down, but then Su-57 would not be Su-57 without some of the goodies, and Su-35 makes a better value for money alternative.
EVEN RUSSIA cannot buy all the planes that the plants will produce, so they would have to keep the plane in LRIP probably all its life.
Also the plane cost would not be cheap, (lets assume around 100 million a plane at least) how many third world countries would be able to buy 100s of these planes? Even if you see the Cheaper Su-30 / 35 is ordered in dozen, and Su-57 being more advanced and complex would be more expenive, thus you might see countries buying maybe half a dozen at the most but that might make their logistics too expensive and complicated to manage.
Sukhoi has two plants, and so roughly 50 planes per year should be possible (lets say) but who will buy so many of these? The production of a year itself will take care of all the demand (say Iran, India and Syria)
So to keep the price cheaper, Russia would have to water it down, but then Su-57 would not be Su-57 without some of the goodies, and Su-35 makes a better value for money alternative.
EVEN RUSSIA cannot buy all the planes that the plants will produce, so they would have to keep the plane in LRIP probably all its life.
Ofcourse they had radar reflectors on them, Part of the problem is... unlike the F22s.. those reflectors are irremovable and are called canards...
J20 is as real as the boogeyman. If any Indian leader falls for this he should be spanked in public. Detect and fire first can be argument for any aircraft... not just J20. Internal bays... have you even seen a test photograph of J20 with full load weapons in flight ? It is severely under-powered, they need new engine for that the Saturn 41P comes close but it is not even close to being ready. And I doubt China will get one. Unless that happens and they get rid of the canards, or htey invent the warp drive or something.
At this point of time, China wont get 41P technology, but they can copy some tech from Su-35 planes that they ordered, The Russians are aware of the Chinese intentions and that is why they set a minimum nos of planes they would sell. If the chinese would copy, the Russians might at least be partly compensated. AL-41 might partly solve the problem of super cruise, but it wont help the plane to be stealthy.
I do not see J-20 as a fighter, but more like Su-34, a big plane with good range and good war load, and with its say long range radar and longer ranged missiles able to down other planes which are carrying smaller missiles as compared to its own,
So it might be an example like in 70s a MiG-21 with its AA-2 Atoll facing F-14D Super Tomcat with its AIM-54 Phoenix missiles.
I do not see J-20 as a fighter, but more like Su-34, a big plane with good range and good war load, and with its say long range radar and longer ranged missiles able to down other planes which are carrying smaller missiles as compared to its own,
So it might be an example like in 70s a MiG-21 with its AA-2 Atoll facing F-14D Super Tomcat with its AIM-54 Phoenix missiles.
So you are expecting an aircraft as bulky as the J20 with under powered engine with no Super cruise ability and not even capable of carrying a full load of weapons and still need to steal technology from the Su 35 which is just and Su 27 upgrade. The only difference between the upgraded su 30mki and su 35 is that the su 35 will have longer range, slightly higher speed and 2 extra hard points. and that will beat a Su 30MKI.
Nothing that we didn't already know. Even you have known this for quite sometime.
Russia wasn't going to mass produce the Stage 1 and this was well-known for years. Now it has only become official.
It's kinda like the F-35. The Stage 1 was mooted back in the early 2000s with the expectation that it will become available by 2015. Once it exceeded this deadline, the focus shifted to the Stage 2. So while the Americans have pressed on with the F-35, the Russians are going for the next gen version instead. Stage 2 is expected only after 2025, so the next gen avionics will reflect that time.
The plan is to make a more advanced FGFA version using the same airframe the definitive version.
In the meantime they want to focus on and complete the inductions of Su-30, Su-34, Su-35 and Mig-35. About 700 fighter jets of this class, followed by 200 advanced Su-57s, that's the plan.
So the western media is simply twisting what is already common knowledge.
PS: FGFA discussions are still active.
So from now until 2025, SU-57 production line produces like 10 planes. Meanwhile 2025, F-35 will be numbered in the thousands.
Generally, I don't buy Russian face saving maneuvers like claiming a plane is TOO good, and it's been confirmed by two days non combat testing in Syria as a reason we shouldn't produce the plane.
It's BS, the Russians don't have the money, the industry, nor is the plane that good.
FGFA discussions on going is the equivalent of a face saving maneuver.
The Russians are not competing with the US, at least not at this time. And if the PAK FA is good enough to defeat the F-22, then those thousands of F-35s will not be very useful against the PAK FA.
As for this combat testing in Syria, the decision to not mass produce the Su-57 Stage 1 was taken years before this combat testing took place. It's when RuAF decided they won't be going for the 55 Su-57s by 2020 they promised earlier. Overall, they will buy some Su-57, but it won't be at mass production rates.
What the Russians have said is they will develop a sixth generation version of the PAK FA and mass produce that.
Read this:
Russia may upgrade advanced Su-57 aircraft to 6th-generation fighter jet
This one refers to upgrading the PAK FA with 6th gen avionics.
Интерфакс-Агентство Военных Новостей
The article also says the Stage 2 engine won't be ready for the PAK FA until 2024. The RuAF originally were planning to buy a lot of Stage 1 PAKFAs with the 117, which I've always thought is a very bad idea. There's nothing strange going on, the Russians have decided to jump a generation.
We don't need to do such a thing in the first place. FGFA is merely not a priority right now, but we still need an aircraft of this class. It will become important right after the new tender is done.
In fact, I have always supported delaying the FGFA in order to build up more advanced features than what's going into the Rafale F4. The Rafale will come with an advanced GaN radar with 360 degree capability. So I have pointed out that the FGFA should have a photonics radar instead, which should come in by 2030, instead of simply paying to make something that the Rafale will also come with. That delay will allow us to manage funds properly as well. I think the IAF is thinking along the same lines, hence the delay.
Western media has simply confused Stage 1's cancellation with the entire program, something that's common knowledge on this forum at the very least. And being here, you already know that no one's gonna be buying the Stage 1, neither India nor Russia.
I was waiting for official confirmation too, finally FGFA is dead.
It will take years still to make PAKFA the next flanker even for RAF. years. what the Russians thought is that they will milk us for the development cost of research for systems of PAKFA in the guise of FGFA. glad we didn't fall for that simple trick.
everything said and done, all india will actually end up with is, PAKFA MKIs and follow the exact same route with Su-30MKI. it will be the cheapest option and if you ask me, the best if we are being real and not day dreaming. the Russians won't give us the total blueprints and the expertise to make our own FGFAs from scratch right now. They will give later but now. why not now ? cause FGFA doesn't exist yet. it's a PAKFA variant. PAKFA isn't ready, where will it's variant come from ? that tech share for FGFA isn't happening before it's designed. Later if they share the same, why should we pay for it? the design ? why ? we can just buy ToT of the PAKFA MKIs, forget about entirely an imaginary bird called FGFA's so called R&D cost. just like we did with Su30 MKIs. did we pay for the R&D of a flanker's variant ? no. we took an existing variant called Su-30 and made an MKI. we didn't sure as hell didn't pay for Su-30's development cost.
I don't know why is this FGFA a two seater..screw two seaters. its twice the cost of a plane lost. two pilots lost. one plane. i find no logic what so ever except that IAF pilots are lazy bums. they aren't, are they ? this alone shows stupidity and that they have no idea of the capabilities and the resulting strategy of a true 5th gen plane by IAF planners. already PAKFA is a leaky boat when it comes to stealth, you wanna add another cockpit to it ? there is a reason the Raptor will remain in service for long. till the other retards actually play catch up in 2020-30 with 1990's Raptor, Raptor will rule.
As far as the russian bear is concerned, basically we will talk, hug, feign to be brothers for ever, have a few big strong strapping drunk men fuk a few russian and Indian women, all on taxpayer's and some shady money. waste most of that money. keep up the bonhomie and buy the PAKFA MKIs as replacement for Su30MKIs. the exact same story will continue.
hopefully, this will be the last time we will have to do this charade. the next replacement for PAKFA MKI mk 2 should be entirely home grown. maybe buy the engine from Russia, do what the Chinese are doing now. but again, I'm day dreaming.
everything said and done, all india will actually end up with is, PAKFA MKIs and follow the exact same route with Su-30MKI. it will be the cheapest option and if you ask me, the best if we are being real and not day dreaming. the Russians won't give us the total blueprints and the expertise to make our own FGFAs from scratch right now. They will give later but now. why not now ? cause FGFA doesn't exist yet. it's a PAKFA variant. PAKFA isn't ready, where will it's variant come from ? that tech share for FGFA isn't happening before it's designed. Later if they share the same, why should we pay for it? the design ? why ? we can just buy ToT of the PAKFA MKIs, forget about entirely an imaginary bird called FGFA's so called R&D cost. just like we did with Su30 MKIs. did we pay for the R&D of a flanker's variant ? no. we took an existing variant called Su-30 and made an MKI. we didn't sure as hell didn't pay for Su-30's development cost.
I don't know why is this FGFA a two seater..screw two seaters. its twice the cost of a plane lost. two pilots lost. one plane. i find no logic what so ever except that IAF pilots are lazy bums. they aren't, are they ? this alone shows stupidity and that they have no idea of the capabilities and the resulting strategy of a true 5th gen plane by IAF planners. already PAKFA is a leaky boat when it comes to stealth, you wanna add another cockpit to it ? there is a reason the Raptor will remain in service for long. till the other retards actually play catch up in 2020-30 with 1990's Raptor, Raptor will rule.
As far as the russian bear is concerned, basically we will talk, hug, feign to be brothers for ever, have a few big strong strapping drunk men fuk a few russian and Indian women, all on taxpayer's and some shady money. waste most of that money. keep up the bonhomie and buy the PAKFA MKIs as replacement for Su30MKIs. the exact same story will continue.
hopefully, this will be the last time we will have to do this charade. the next replacement for PAKFA MKI mk 2 should be entirely home grown. maybe buy the engine from Russia, do what the Chinese are doing now. but again, I'm day dreaming.
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Su-30 MKI and Su-35S come from same Flanker family but they have developed decade apart.
So coming from Su-24 Tree, the first branch was Su-30 MKI and the other branch being Su-35 was developed. Su-30 SM being the direct development from Su-30 MKI.
Su-35 does not have canard, performance wise its much better than Su-30 MKI due to more powerful engine, a better Radar with longer range
Also the avionics are better than Su-30MKI, Do you want me to talk about airframe life?
J-20 is working with the old engines, but that is not stopping the Chinese trying to use the planes unlike IAF which wants only to buy the final plane. Thus PLAAF will be using and testing J-20 and then coming up with request for better upgrades. The engine for J-20 is in development and may take time for them to come up with the same, but that does not deter them from producing the plane as then at a later stage they can re-engine the planes, but that importantly does not slow down the development as the engine is then developed with its pace and the avionics are developed within its own pace.
So coming from Su-24 Tree, the first branch was Su-30 MKI and the other branch being Su-35 was developed. Su-30 SM being the direct development from Su-30 MKI.
Su-35 does not have canard, performance wise its much better than Su-30 MKI due to more powerful engine, a better Radar with longer range
Also the avionics are better than Su-30MKI, Do you want me to talk about airframe life?
J-20 is working with the old engines, but that is not stopping the Chinese trying to use the planes unlike IAF which wants only to buy the final plane. Thus PLAAF will be using and testing J-20 and then coming up with request for better upgrades. The engine for J-20 is in development and may take time for them to come up with the same, but that does not deter them from producing the plane as then at a later stage they can re-engine the planes, but that importantly does not slow down the development as the engine is then developed with its pace and the avionics are developed within its own pace.
The problem is what will replace it.
AMCA can't replace the FGFA, I can assure you of that. AMCA is a step up over the F-22, but it's no FGFA.
Good. Later stage will also mean new requirements.
Let the Russians develop the Su-27, we will come for the Su-35.
You have to first produce the Su-27 before you can produce the Su-35. You cannot skip a generation of production, testing and experience while expecting roses and sunshine.
It's clear even to the biggest russophile, that they're dumb broke, and it will have a long term impact on their aerospace industry.
This whole sixth generation thing is a giant marketing coup. Otherwise the F-16 has gone through 7 generations.
It was known long ago that the Russians won't be mass producing the Stage 1 PAK FA.
There is no reason why one cannot produce Stage 2 PAK FA whilst skipping production of Stage 1.
The USAF has decided to modernise a whole lot of 4th gen aircraft whereas the RuAF is simply buying brand new, much more modern 4th gen aircraft. That's where Russia's money is going. And 5th gen tech will become available for the MKI and all other 4th gen Russian aircraft in the meantime. So it's not like the Russians will not be producing 5th gen avionics.