Pakistan AirForce : Updates & Discussions

The FC-31 will become the first medium weight aircraft for PAF then.
Only If their economy survives.😁😁😂
For me only if Pakistan as a nation survives by 2025....😉
If Modi government returns to power Pakistan's days are numbered, he ensured their economy goes for a toss and their army is feeling the heat so much so that pakjabi jernails are talking peace, only yesterday Indian army conducted cross border raids killing several Pak army Goons...☺
 
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Only If their economy survives.😁😁😂
For me only if Pakistan as a nation survives by 2025....😉
If Modi government returns to power Pakistan's days are numbered, he ensured their economy goes for a toss and their army is feeling the heat so much so that pakjabi jernails are talking peace, only yesterday Indian army conducted cross border raids killing several Pak army Goons...☺

Modi has nothing to do with the state of their economy. The Pakistanis did it to themselves. And it's the Chinese who are making Pakistan their dependency, with a lot of help from some sections within the Pak Army. What Modi is doing is trying to squeeze them out of Western funding.

But yeah, their economy has gone for a toss and it's only going to get worse. Whether it gets better again, who knows?
 
Modi has nothing to do with the state of their economy. The Pakistanis did it to themselves. And it's the Chinese who are making Pakistan their dependency, with a lot of help from some sections within the Pak Army. What Modi is doing is trying to squeeze them out of Western funding.

But yeah, their economy has gone for a toss and it's only going to get worse. Whether it gets better again, who knows?

Modi hurt them indirectly

1 Modi' s policies made them increase their
Expenditures on Defence and Non State Actors ; they had to do so to protect and advance their interests in Afghanistan

But all this costs money

Also what it led to was , it put them on a Direct confrontation path with USA
Leading to stoppage of Aid

2 Secondly , they went in for a totally Submissive Relationship with regard to China

And signed all these highly expensive
CPEC deals
 
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Modi has nothing to do with the state of their economy. The Pakistanis did it to themselves. And it's the Chinese who are making Pakistan their dependency, with a lot of help from some sections within the Pak Army. What Modi is doing is trying to squeeze them out of Western funding.

But yeah, their economy has gone for a toss and it's only going to get worse. Whether it gets better again, who knows?
Maybe the question is why isn't India doing not enough, it's legit means of retaliatory measure employed by large number of nations. What stops Indian fund houses to through international partners to destabilize the markets, or predatory pricing goods in the same segment backed by government sops. I do not think the current dispensation is even looking at the long game, they are busy with myopic goals which in turn will dent India's strategic interests in the region.
 
The JF-20's body shape has been completely redesigned

And that's why it's not a stealthy JF17, but a new aircrafts, that might take JF17 as the Base for common techs, but that's it. You can't just shape JF17 and suddenly have internal space for weapons or fuel. You have to completely change the internal and external design.

It reminds me on the origins of the KFX programme, where they took the FA50 as the Base too and then redesigned it with similar size and techs, but with concepts for internal weapon bays and external pods or weapon loads, as a cost-effective "stealthy" fighter. But being so small, also limits the internal space for weapons and fuel.
 
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but I still wonder what role a stealthy light aircraft has?

The logic behind JF 17 was not role specific, but to have an independent fighter, that fits to the financial budget and can be procured in numbers and the same logic might apply to JF 20.

Just as JF 17 is not meant for long range operations and mainly benefits from AWACS support and it's small size, a stealthy JF 20 would be even harder to detect and would benefit from external support too. If you then an carry AAMs and fuel internally, even if limited in numbers, it can be an effective interceptor.

But since the logic is the same, it also shows why it doesn't make much operational sense, since JF 17 will remain in service for a long time. The better idea therfore would be, a medium class fighter for longer range operations, that complements JF 17.
 
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Though t they ll beat us pretty bad in 5 the generation fighters ..
When we are delaying/ cancelling FGFa

The don't have that beat us, we beat ourselves.

P.S. lol just remembered a Russell Peters joke.

US to Iraq: We are going to come to your country and Kill you
Iraq to US: FU, I kill me!!! 😂
 
JF 17 had the primary job of replacing extremely obsolete aircrafts of PAF , quickly and cheaply. And this task it has achieved with great success.

1. No 2 Minhas (Karachi) : It replaced F7P fighters starting 2015 in this squadron.

2. No 14 Tail Choppers : Again replacing F7P starting 2017.

3. No 16 Black Panthers : Replaced A5C fighter bombers of PAF.

4. No 26 Black Spiders: Replaced A5C again.

5. No 28 Squadron : Newly Raised.

Means the JF17 totaly replaced the 50+ fleet of A5C in PAF , and replaced 75% of the F7P fleet too. Only 1 more F7P squadron remains in service. Rest are F7PG which are newer than half of their F16AM/BM fleet.

Means of the 19 active fighter squadrons of PAF , 5 are of JF17. All this within 8 years starting 2010.

Also in between this time PAF received 18 Block 52 and 13 ADF F16s replacing more F7Ps and Mirages.

The last decade has been good for PAF.

And also JF17 is actually operational and can fire all types of basic weapons.
 
JF 17 had the primary job of replacing extremely obsolete aircrafts of PAF , quickly and cheaply. And this task it has achieved with great success.

1. No 2 Minhas (Karachi) : It replaced F7P fighters starting 2015 in this squadron.

2. No 14 Tail Choppers : Again replacing F7P starting 2017.

3. No 16 Black Panthers : Replaced A5C fighter bombers of PAF.

4. No 26 Black Spiders: Replaced A5C again.

5. No 28 Squadron : Newly Raised.

Means the JF17 totaly replaced the 50+ fleet of A5C in PAF , and replaced 75% of the F7P fleet too. Only 1 more F7P squadron remains in service. Rest are F7PG which are newer than half of their F16AM/BM fleet.

Means of the 19 active fighter squadrons of PAF , 5 are of JF17. All this within 8 years starting 2010.

Also in between this time PAF received 18 Block 52 and 13 ADF F16s replacing more F7Ps and Mirages.

The last decade has been good for PAF.

And also JF17 is actually operational and can fire all types of basic weapons.
Its general drawback remains short legs and misinformation, that is where our advantage lies.
 
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Its general drawback remains short legs and misinformation, that is where our advantage lies.

Range and strike capacity is an issue for this aircraft. This is the reason why it has only been replacing Fishbeds in PAF and not a single Mirage squadron. The only Mirage squadron replacement came from ADFs of Jordan i think. Even the upcoming Block 3 will go into replacing the remaing P and PGs.

And the less said about RD93s, the better. The number of RD93s clearly say that their present fleet is hardly doing 100 flight hours a year even.
 
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Its general drawback remains short legs and misinformation, that is where our advantage lies.

Disinformation actually. Misinformation is accidental. Disinformation is deliberate.

JF-17 Block 1 and 2 are entirely swallowed up by disinformation from the PAF. I would love to see what it does in a competition on neutral grounds against more established players like the Gripen C/D and FA-50.

Its short legs are pretty standard for its size.
 
Disinformation actually. Misinformation is accidental. Disinformation is deliberate.

JF-17 Block 1 and 2 are entirely swallowed up by disinformation from the PAF. I would love to see what it does in a competition on neutral grounds against more established players like the Gripen C/D and FA-50.

Its short legs are pretty standard for its size.
Coupled with a rd33 engine and it's size I feel it's range and payload estimates are inflated.
 
Coupled with a rd33 engine and it's size I feel it's range and payload estimates are inflated.

It carries less than the LCA, with LCA taking off from a 900m altitude runway. And that's saying a lot.

This is the best I've seen it do.
maxresdefault.jpg


This is around 3000Kg.
 
PAF’s Eagle-eyed view - Asian Military Review

Protecting Pakistan’s airspace, is the main role of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Under Project Vision, which commenced operations 19 years ago, the PAF has done a phenomenal job doing just that.

Pulling together information from a number of multi-service sensors means the PAF has a single recognised air picture (RAP) that provides its air defenders with an eagle-eyed view. As a result it has 24/7 coverage of all its airspace, which can extend hundreds of miles out into the sea and across its borders.

One source told the IDEAS Show Daily, “we have US, European and Chinese short range, medium range and long range radars, that are both air based and ground based. They are coming from vintage and modern systems.” He went on to say, “with all this information fed and merged into our Air Space Management Centre (ASMC) we get a Recognised Air and Maritime Picture (RAMP).”

The Army and Navy surveillance systems are also plugged into the ASMC, along with the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) sensor, radar and flight plans, ensuring the air surveillance coverage is robust. One example of its airborne radar input combines aerial pictures of Sweden’s Saab Erieye, French Dassault 20 and Chinese CETC ZDK-03s which are downlinked to the ASMC. It is difficult to know of such an air defence system anywhere else in the world that draws upon such a wide variety of foreign sensors. Clearly they have come up with a complex system. “No, not really,” said another spokesman, “we use our very own indigenous multi-radar tracker, integrated into all of air defence systems. We don’t rely on the tracker of those particular systems.”

At IDEAS, the same source added, “We now have a system that has been perfected over a couple of decades, so it is battle-hardened and time proven. The air threats are very unique too – they come from the long standing threat in the east and the effects of terrorism in the west, all happening along very long borders.”

The PAF has four air defence centres, covering the complete aerial space of Pakistan.

“We stitch together all the sensor’s pictures together to get the complete picture. How far it goes out to sea depends upon where the ship-borne radar is located.”

When it comes to an unidentified flying aircraft, a fighter will be launched from one of the PAF’s Air Defence Alerts (ADAs) situated around Pakistan. They are then directed onto the target by a Ground Control Interceptor (GCI). In the eastern borders there are a lot of unmanned aerial vehicles crossing the border and both sides are looking deep into each other’s territories, to ensure they have an early airborne warning. Then there is the airspace over Afghanistan which is always uncertain because of the ongoing war on terror.

Defending Pakistan’s airspace is obviously a major motivation for everyone in the military to ensure the country is well defended.


Pakistan Air Force builds for the future - Asian Military Review

The PAF has been working on a 5th Generation fighter for almost a year now and it is likely to take at least a couple of years before it is flying. “It is indigenous at this time – we will be self-reliant and not dependent upon western or eastern partners”.

“For future lead-in fighter training, we have evaluated certain aircraft which included the Hongdu L-15 and Leonardo M346. There might be shortfalls in some aircraft, but if they can fulfil our air staff requirements”.

AWPAFKhan2.jpg
The Chief’s predecessor, Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman flew in the Leonardo M346 before he retired, to look at the jet-trainer’s capabilities as a LIFT. (Leonardo)
 
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The logic behind JF 17 was not role specific, but to have an independent fighter, that fits to the financial budget and can be procured in numbers and the same logic might apply to JF 20.

Just as JF 17 is not meant for long range operations and mainly benefits from AWACS support and it's small size, a stealthy JF 20 would be even harder to detect and would benefit from external support too. If you then an carry AAMs and fuel internally, even if limited in numbers, it can be an effective interceptor.

But since the logic is the same, it also shows why it doesn't make much operational sense, since JF 17 will remain in service for a long time. The better idea therfore would be, a medium class fighter for longer range operations, that complements JF 17.


I agree entirely. But rather than a medium class fighter or any type of strike aircraft, wouldn't more SAM systems and coastal batteries be a more worthwhile investment? Coastal batteries and (preferably layered) SAM systems would provide coverage from India's navy and airforce while their army attempts fights off an Indian ground offensive, or at least slow its push while waiting for foreign intervention/diplomacy.

I just don't see the point in pulling in small numbers of anything when considering the size and economy of the nation they face. My thought is that even if they acquire a super capable fighter, they will never be able to afford to purchase and operate it in numbers that will make a significant long term difference to any engagement with India. For the foreseeable future, Pakistan isn't going to have the economy to support aerial offensives against India (maybe with cruise missiles?), and their present capabilities are more than enough if they wanted to conduct strikes internally or in Afghanistan (the only other realistic target). Reality is that they have to be a highly defensive organization. Perhaps chipping away at posts near the border like they did in Kargil, or facilitating the insertion of militants into India.
 
Range and strike capacity is an issue for this aircraft.

Range is (can be countered with IFR), strike isn't, in fact it adds strike capabilities that PAF didn't had. But just as LCA, it is primarily a Mig 21 replacement for air defence, that's why it replaces them first, while adding precision, or stand off strike, SEAD or maritime attack capability.
While the Mirage or F16s have to cross borders for strikes, JF 17 can do attacks even from their own airspace, because of the weapon capabilities. It's not an advanced fighter, but a good weapon launch platform, be it in A2A, or A2G.
 
I agree entirely. But rather than a medium class fighter or any type of strike aircraft, wouldn't more SAM systems and coastal batteries be a more worthwhile investment?

SAMs are purely defensive assets and only for air defence, you need fighters for offensive attacks, or basic CAS.

I just don't see the point in pulling in small numbers of anything when considering the size and economy of the nation they face.

Stealth is mainly a tactical advantage, not a numerical, that's why it's better to take benefit of the stealth advantage, in combination with the benefits of non stealth fighters. A common tactic will be, to use the stealth fighter as a forward sensor platform, that defects enemy air and ground threads and guides following non stealth fighters around them. We have seen that in NATO exercises too, where F22 and EF, or F35 and Rafales were paired to benefit from each other. USN will do the same with the F35/F18 B3 combo, so PAF with a more capable medium class stealth fighter, even in lower numbers, could benefit a lot in terms of offensive strike, situational awareness, interoperability with JF 17 and their AWACS.

and their present capabilities are more than enough if they wanted to conduct strikes internally or in Afghanistan (the only other realistic target). Reality is that they have to be a highly defensive organization. Perhaps chipping away at posts near the border like they did in Kargil, or facilitating the insertion of militants into India.

Never good to underestimate the enemy mate! When you look at capability progress from Kargil till now, PAF evolved more than IAF did, because they were far behind then and are on par, or even superior now.
 
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SAMs are purely defensive assets and only for air defence, you need fighters for offensive attacks, or basic CAS.



Stealth is mainly a tactical advantage, not a numerical, that's why it's better to take benefit of the stealth advantage, in combination with the benefits of non stealth fighters. A common tactic will be, to use the stealth fighter as a forward sensor platform, that defects enemy air and ground threads and guides following non stealth fighters around them. We have seen that in NATO exercises too, where F22 and EF, or F35 and Rafales were paired to benefit from each other. USN will do the same with the F35/F18 B3 combo, so PAF with a more capable medium class stealth fighter, even in lower numbers, could benefit a lot in terms of offensive strike, situational awareness, interoperability with JF 17 and their AWACS.



Never good to underestimate the enemy mate! When you look at capability progress from Kargil till now, PAF evolved more than IAF did, because they were far behind then and are on par, or even superior now.

No you are right, a lot of my assumptions are condescending and have a lot of implicit bias. When I think of offensive capabilities I immediately think along doctrinal lines, imagining going for air-superiority and the like. Even if Pakistan focuses more on a defensive doctrine, having offensive capabilities is necessary to perform tactical sorties or first strikes, CAS, etc like you were saying. And using stealth in conjunction with awacs and other platforms makes sense. Additionally I have, wrongfully & baselessly so, assumed the stealth & sensor fusion software they receive will be mediocre at best due to its probable Chinese nature. But it isn't fair to automatically discredit the tech developed by China.

I also make the assumption that Indian defense procurement will pull itself together and begin meaningfully inducting platforms and upgrading existing systems in a timely manner, something the Pakistanis seem to do oddly well in comparison.
 
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