Navy should give up everything else and Airforce everything else for this year, if we want to be ready in 2028-30.
Only focus on P75I and MMRCA 2.
Only focus on P75I and MMRCA 2.
Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Himanshu
- Start date
As of now this is just wishful thinking on my partIt sounds like a statement made by a Frenchman
In this case, the ideal would be an Indianized Shortfin Barracuda (AIP, VLS,...).
This submarine is "dual": conventional for the P-75I, and "easily" nuclearizable for the P-75A project (the French Barracuda being nuclear born).
Advantages: uniformity of design. Construction, exploitation and maintenance costs maintained.
Other advantage, LEU for nuc. propulsion.
It's a paper submarine as of now not an operationalized model . The RFI floated by the IN in this case specifically asks for proven tech . Whether this is to keep certain parties out ? I suspect that's the case . Whether it's been done specifically to target the French ? Who knows ?
What's known is both the IN & MDL weren't in the least happy with NG . The leak of information pertaining to the Scorpenes certainly damaged the NGs reputation irreparably though nobody would comment on the record .
I believe the design including the one for the N reactor has already been frozen . The tech collaboration would be more in the pump jet propulsion . But then again it's a black project so there's practically no information about it forthcoming . All we can do is make educated guesses.
Let's wait for President Macron's visit & see what developments take place . A whole lot of possibilities have been laid like a banquet by main stream defence journalists & think tank analysts . Let's see how many come to fruition .
"Anonymous sources"?
The Kalvari class is completing itself, and it is a "game changer" as geopolitics.in titled it in December.
But you are right, the best is to wait until March
Nope . Ex IN officials & the present Chairman or MD of MDL has gone on the record . All these statements were carried in articles linked here in the past .
The Scorpenes as they exist now is definitely a shot in the arm for the IN as the current lot of submarines they're operating are way past their sell by date . For the Scorpenes to be truly effective the AIP needs to come into play along with Li ion battery ASAP. Hopefully we do so for at least the first 3 submarines before 2030 .
We need up to 6 secondhand upgraded Kilos and 2 more Akulas. Anything else won't make it before 2035.
Alternatively, 3 secondhand Kilos and 3 secondhand Japanese subs.
Alternatively, 3 secondhand Kilos and 3 secondhand Japanese subs.
submarines: Germany keen on govt-to-govt deal to jointly manufacture submarines - The Economic Times
Germany is keen to pursue the government-to-government route for jointly manufacturing advanced conventional submarines for an Indian Navy requirement, with the matter likely to be taken up at high-level bilateral meetings later this week during Chancellor Olaf Scholz's visit.
submarines: Germany keen on govt-to-govt deal to jointly manufacture submarines - The Economic Times
Germany is keen to pursue the government-to-government route for jointly manufacturing advanced conventional submarines for an Indian Navy requirement, with the matter likely to be taken up at high-level bilateral meetings later this week during Chancellor Olaf Scholz's visit.m.economictimes.com
Lot of bad news in the article, from the Koreans under litigation to TKMS getting ready to quit shipbuilding. At least we should be happy there are two contenders left.
If things progress normally from here, the Koreans have the advantage. The Germans are unlikely to beat the Koreans on price.
And if the tender goes ahead in Aug this year, we could see a result before March 2025, unless they decide to change the SPM to regular tender or GTG.
Given the economic issues plaguing Germany , I wonder if ze German govt would welcome such a move. Equally, I wonder if it's possible for India to bid for TKMS as a PPP with say L&T. It's a long shot but no harm in trying though having said that it'd be nothing short of anathema to ze Germans or the EU to see such a proposal coming from us .
They'd rather it be acquired or get into a JV with SAAB or NG or even BAe I imagine except these groups would be facing similar problems of varying magnitudes as the TKMS management is doing today.
Unless of course the TKMS is broken up & it's components are sold off. Atlas Electonik is a good acquisition too apart from the sub surface biz.
We're living in interesting times.
They'd rather it be acquired or get into a JV with SAAB or NG or even BAe I imagine except these groups would be facing similar problems of varying magnitudes as the TKMS management is doing today.
Unless of course the TKMS is broken up & it's components are sold off. Atlas Electonik is a good acquisition too apart from the sub surface biz.
We're living in interesting times.
Something for you
Germany is now preparing a G2G offer.submarines: Germany keen on govt-to-govt deal to jointly manufacture submarines - The Economic Times
Germany is keen to pursue the government-to-government route for jointly manufacturing advanced conventional submarines for an Indian Navy requirement, with the matter likely to be taken up at high-level bilateral meetings later this week during Chancellor Olaf Scholz's visit.
Seems Modi said "okay we will have a look" to Olafs bringing up of SSK offer under G2G deal in their last meeting.
Germany is soon expected to present a proposal to India for the sale of advanced conventional submarines through the government-to-government route, it is learnt.
The Navy, which is staring at a dwindling sub-surface fleet, is looking to procure six advanced diesel-electric submarines under Project-75I estimated to cost over ₹45,000 crore. The project has been stuck for a while over technical issues.
“A proposal for submarines through the G-to-G route is being prepared and would be presented to the Government of India soon,” diplomatic sources said.
A visit by German Defence Minister to India in the next few months is in the works, officials and diplomatic sources said, during which the proposal could be formally presented.
The issue also came up for discussion during the visit of German Chancellor Olaf Scholz in February, officials said.
In January 2020, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) shortlisted Mazgaon Docks Ltd. (MDL) and Larsen & Toubro (L&T) as the Indian partners for the P-75 deal, the first to be processed under the strategic partnership model of the procurement procedure.
The five foreign original equipment manufacturers (OEM) are Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (South Korea), Naval Group (France), Navantia (Spain), Rosoboronexport (Russia) and Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems (TKMS, Germany).
The Request For Proposal (RFP) was originally issued in July 2021 to MDL and L&T with 12 weeks to respond and has since been extended several times, the latest being up to August 2023.
The project ran into rough weather, among other issues, over a specification that the submarine on offer should have an operational Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) module with an endurance of two weeks.
The OEMs also raised the issue of unlimited liability on them. Only Germany and South Korea technically meet this criteria, as reported by The Hindu earlier.
The DAC recently clarified a few issues, officials said. However, industry sources said concerns still remain. Recently, TKMS, which was in talks with L&T, decided to partner with MDL, while it is learnt that Daewoo has internal administrative issues, among others. Officials said due to this, it could end up being a single- vendor situation, stalling the entire process.
Officials had stated that once a selection was done, the deal had to be eventually processed through an Inter-Governmental Agreement, given the technical complexities involved.
The Navy has 16 conventional submarines in service — seven Russian Kilo-class submarines, four German-origin HDW submarines and five French Scorpene-class submarines.
The last and sixth Scorpene is expected to join service early next year. With the Kilos and the HDWs ageing, a Medium Refit-cum-Life Certification (MRLC) programme is under way to increase their life, but even that would not arrest the dwindling sub-surface fleet of the Navy.
An AIP module acts as a force multiplier as it enables conventional submarines to remain submerged for a longer duration, thereby increasing their endurance and reducing chances of detection.
An indigenously developed AIP module is set to installed on the Scorpene submarines as they go for refit from 2024 onwards.
www.thehindu.com
The Navy, which is staring at a dwindling sub-surface fleet, is looking to procure six advanced diesel-electric submarines under Project-75I estimated to cost over ₹45,000 crore. The project has been stuck for a while over technical issues.
“A proposal for submarines through the G-to-G route is being prepared and would be presented to the Government of India soon,” diplomatic sources said.
A visit by German Defence Minister to India in the next few months is in the works, officials and diplomatic sources said, during which the proposal could be formally presented.
The issue also came up for discussion during the visit of German Chancellor Olaf Scholz in February, officials said.
In January 2020, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) shortlisted Mazgaon Docks Ltd. (MDL) and Larsen & Toubro (L&T) as the Indian partners for the P-75 deal, the first to be processed under the strategic partnership model of the procurement procedure.
The five foreign original equipment manufacturers (OEM) are Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (South Korea), Naval Group (France), Navantia (Spain), Rosoboronexport (Russia) and Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems (TKMS, Germany).
The Request For Proposal (RFP) was originally issued in July 2021 to MDL and L&T with 12 weeks to respond and has since been extended several times, the latest being up to August 2023.
The project ran into rough weather, among other issues, over a specification that the submarine on offer should have an operational Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) module with an endurance of two weeks.
The OEMs also raised the issue of unlimited liability on them. Only Germany and South Korea technically meet this criteria, as reported by The Hindu earlier.
The DAC recently clarified a few issues, officials said. However, industry sources said concerns still remain. Recently, TKMS, which was in talks with L&T, decided to partner with MDL, while it is learnt that Daewoo has internal administrative issues, among others. Officials said due to this, it could end up being a single- vendor situation, stalling the entire process.
Officials had stated that once a selection was done, the deal had to be eventually processed through an Inter-Governmental Agreement, given the technical complexities involved.
The Navy has 16 conventional submarines in service — seven Russian Kilo-class submarines, four German-origin HDW submarines and five French Scorpene-class submarines.
The last and sixth Scorpene is expected to join service early next year. With the Kilos and the HDWs ageing, a Medium Refit-cum-Life Certification (MRLC) programme is under way to increase their life, but even that would not arrest the dwindling sub-surface fleet of the Navy.
An AIP module acts as a force multiplier as it enables conventional submarines to remain submerged for a longer duration, thereby increasing their endurance and reducing chances of detection.
An indigenously developed AIP module is set to installed on the Scorpene submarines as they go for refit from 2024 onwards.
Germany expected to present government-to-government proposal for sale of submarines to India
The Navy, which is staring at a dwindling sub-surface fleet, is looking to procure six advanced diesel-electric submarines under Project-75I.
Germany is soon expected to present a proposal to India for the sale of advanced conventional submarines through the government-to-government route, it is learnt.
The Navy, which is staring at a dwindling sub-surface fleet, is looking to procure six advanced diesel-electric submarines under Project-75I estimated to cost over ₹45,000 crore. The project has been stuck for a while over technical issues.
“A proposal for submarines through the G-to-G route is being prepared and would be presented to the Government of India soon,” diplomatic sources said.
A visit by German Defence Minister to India in the next few months is in the works, officials and diplomatic sources said, during which the proposal could be formally presented.
The issue also came up for discussion during the visit of German Chancellor Olaf Scholz in February, officials said.
In January 2020, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) shortlisted Mazgaon Docks Ltd. (MDL) and Larsen & Toubro (L&T) as the Indian partners for the P-75 deal, the first to be processed under the strategic partnership model of the procurement procedure.
The five foreign original equipment manufacturers (OEM) are Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (South Korea), Naval Group (France), Navantia (Spain), Rosoboronexport (Russia) and Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems (TKMS, Germany).
The Request For Proposal (RFP) was originally issued in July 2021 to MDL and L&T with 12 weeks to respond and has since been extended several times, the latest being up to August 2023.
The project ran into rough weather, among other issues, over a specification that the submarine on offer should have an operational Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) module with an endurance of two weeks.
The OEMs also raised the issue of unlimited liability on them. Only Germany and South Korea technically meet this criteria, as reported by The Hindu earlier.
The DAC recently clarified a few issues, officials said. However, industry sources said concerns still remain. Recently, TKMS, which was in talks with L&T, decided to partner with MDL, while it is learnt that Daewoo has internal administrative issues, among others. Officials said due to this, it could end up being a single- vendor situation, stalling the entire process.
Officials had stated that once a selection was done, the deal had to be eventually processed through an Inter-Governmental Agreement, given the technical complexities involved.
The Navy has 16 conventional submarines in service — seven Russian Kilo-class submarines, four German-origin HDW submarines and five French Scorpene-class submarines.
The last and sixth Scorpene is expected to join service early next year. With the Kilos and the HDWs ageing, a Medium Refit-cum-Life Certification (MRLC) programme is under way to increase their life, but even that would not arrest the dwindling sub-surface fleet of the Navy.
An AIP module acts as a force multiplier as it enables conventional submarines to remain submerged for a longer duration, thereby increasing their endurance and reducing chances of detection.
An indigenously developed AIP module is set to installed on the Scorpene submarines as they go for refit from 2024 onwards.
Germany expected to present government-to-government proposal for sale of submarines to India
The Navy, which is staring at a dwindling sub-surface fleet, is looking to procure six advanced diesel-electric submarines under Project-75I.
In the current scenario given the uncertainties surrounding this entire project , I think this is the best course of action especially given that MDL , IN & MoD are miffed at Naval Group for their shenanigans during the construction of the Kalvari class & there are no decent competitors left in field apart from the French & the Germans for quality SSKs in general but also with respect to this project.
If that's how the GoI decides , most probably the decision would come next yr after the elections or the yr after that .
The French can be mollified with Rafales for the MRCBF & possibly an additional 2 squadrons as the 2nd tranche for the IAF before the RFP for the MRFA tender goes thru , assuming they need to be mollified for rendering assistance in our SSN / SSBN projects which can always be coupled with buying more Rafales thru the G2G route or with the MRFA tender. Speaking of coupling , no news yet on our purported collaboration for the Turbofan project with SAFRAN .
Otherwise it'd be business as usual with the RFP going nowhere & extentions after extentions being extended with zero expectations of any positive outcome which in due course may well be put in the cold storage accelerating the design & development of our own indigenous SSKs . Not a bad idea , IMO with TKMS or NG acting as consultant.
The last option would be the IN in it's desperation to seek a foreign OEM diluting it's requirements & standards to such an extent that it may yet not attract the best in the business only to sign a deal with the likes of Daewoo or Navantia & be saddled with a white elephant. It'd be the worst of all decisions . Fortunately the likelihood of this happening is remote but then this is the Indian defence establishment we're talking about . Nothing is beyond them .
If the German offer is really reasonable, it's time we seal the P75I. Atleast sign an IGA before the election. And then thr final contract after it. Because I don't see P75I fructifying through the open tender way.
I do not disagree that, but the AIP deal showed maybe this is a thing of past, MDL is absorbing the tech part now.
And funny enough MDL expertise of SSk making is listed in the MoD export booklet for export purpose.
MDL is merely the system integrator for AIP which as you well know was developed by NMRL & mfd by Thermax & L&T.
Not entirely inaccurate. They've mfg expertise not designing.
Merely attempts at scuttling tenders. As long as the Koreans exist as competitors, the tender will continue. The only way the IN will drop the tender is if it turns into a single-vendor situation at the RFP stage.
Any attempt at doing this, either the Germans or Koreans will price themselves out of a contract, like the minesweeper deal.
Anyway, the Koreans are significantly less risky, 'cause they already have the sub.
Not really.
SF Barracuda is a direct son of SSN Barracuda.
The study for the Australian bid was near the end. The next step before they halted was the machining study.
old school sub. old propeller. Small sub (for the indian needs.
=> I see no indian future for it.