Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Himanshu
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Definitely. My money's on Korea taking the contract. Basically, whoever's choosing Korea would win 'cause they already have the sub and can control costs.
The only sticking point in the Korean bid is VLS.
Otoh, the main sticking point in the German bid is the entire sub, 'cause it's only a paper design, apparently unique to Indian requirements.
i see atleast two problems with the Koreans. Won't they have to go back to computer simulations and the wave generator pool with an extended version of their in service submarine to test boyancy, stability etc.? Same as the Germans?
Secondly, can't the Germans disallow the Koreans from participation claiming DSME-3000 as derivative of their own design- bringing in IP infringement etc?
Both the German Chancellor & Defence Minister (visiting after 8 years) coming to India within months of each other shows they think they have their nose ahead.
German’s are not a reliable partner in major defence purchases.
Not ordering at least few more kalvari class as stop gap is just criminal. Sometimes indian procurements dont make sense. It’s devoid of logic to follow certain set procedures made up by bureaucracy.
Not ordering at least few more kalvari class as stop gap is just criminal. Sometimes indian procurements dont make sense. It’s devoid of logic to follow certain set procedures made up by bureaucracy.
I think few more Scorpene order is currently being processed, but given decision to fit in the aip, the user would probably like to do the demo of it in one sub as planned already, than the extra 3 or more order can proceed easily. Otherwise it would be back to drawing board again should any issues arise. Changing plans mid project of such scale, imo better be safe than sorry.
There won't be parallel programs. More scorpion won't happen if there is P75I. That's as simple as that.
People misses out how system works. G2G deals are processed with western nations only in rare cases like Rafale.
Bureaucrats and politicians will always prefer tender route as much as possible for big ticket items. Less chances of corruption and allegations. That's why there are MMRCA or P75I even though there are clear preferences.
Imo current govt motto is if any import happens, big ticket, it will either be by G2G deal or the foreign companies have to find Indian partner & indigenise 50% items/phased indigenisation in some cases if they want business. They made it clear to the forces that final deal will be G2G mode only. You can see this mou also pointing to the same.
Also MRFA or P75I tenders are by the respective forces passed via MoD. It will only go thru via the make routes foreign partners etc. So it would not hamper future scorpene deal. Now the question is should DRDO AIP fail to prove as a desired product what do you do if extra 3 or more subs are ordered by that time? Navy would have 9 subs maintenance on hand that they can't fit with AIP, instead of 6. I think its logical for navy to do this AIp integration first & subsequently place extra scorpene order in between depending on how AIP tests go.
No. Indigenous content has less to do with the type of deal. Tender based offset is easier to implement.
Things like 50% indigenous for 36 aircraft is jumla, everyone knows it won't happen.
No one made anything clear as such. You are imagining stuff. This government is insisting on tender route like others.
Services don't care how you purchase stuff. They are the one actually suffering because of the procedure.
All purchases are by service through MoD.
Again imagining stuff. DRDO AIP has no relation with P75I. Tender didn't specify it should be Indian.
As I said, there cannot be parallel programs. If there is P75I there will not be any follow on kalvari. There is zero evidence of additional kalvari as opposed to DAC cleared tender process.
It's vendors responsibility to prove systems. After contract they get enough time to do it. Like LCA mk1A. You don't wait for it to finish then order anything.
G2G deals like that is not indigenous content related. Those are whole import business between 2 gov. As a result the business volume will be heavily cut down, like 36 jets only instead of 114 planned MRFA. I mean Govt prioritising the make in India route first, where the foreign company will have to have an Indian partner to geet the full business. Look for how the navy jet deal will be signed for half the 50-55 jets amount & instead only 25-27.
This I agree, but Govt is hell bent on localisation & improving domestic industry, so if they stay in power the Forces will have to buy into their line. We can argue whether good or bad, but that's different discussion. Now its the govt point of view that matters. And they will not sign a major deal in full if their conditions are not met. Those conditions are very committed to making India a defense export hub. Unless really cornered situation like galwan or balakot happens, I do not see this changing.
As for the AIP, I think navy is just a bit risk averse in this case. If we had a ton of AIP based frontline subs being offered to us this won't have mattered. But any export version is often very downgraded compared to standard which might not be first choice for us. Lets see where this new effort goes.
Anyway, this was the press release
We are both talking about different things. Doesnt matter "Make in india" or atmanirbahr. The issue here is not choosing the logical option but going back to the drawing board of tendering process every time and wasting 4-5 years on procedures.
Cutting down the number actually hurts make in india. MoD always insisted on having indian partner before also. Example, MMRCA and HAL.
That is old habit die hard sort, all the weapon purchasing decisions rely on the forces internal discussion, almost certainly each lobby play their cards in this case. So its never going to be one decision fits all kind of thing. Add with this Govt insisting on long term benefit to Indian MIC by jv & tot+mfg base.
And therein lies the problem. Instead of doing a Galwan or pushing a Balakot further, we sit and wait for them to happen.
There is nuclear deterrence and then conventional deterrence. What we lack is the ability to inflict pain under the nuclear umbrella.
True, this is something I hate as well. But people in upper echelons anywhere have never bothered about the masses in general. Be it armed forces, or politics, corporate or anywhere else. I do not have much hope for p75I either, even the shipyards also seem to go with the trend rather than being enthusiastic because they are psu.
The design is still based on an existing design that's operational. Any changes will be minor from the original.
It qualifies as Korea's original design.
KSS I is about 75% indigenous, II will be more than 80%, so the risk of IP infringement is extremely low, and is very unlikely from the Germans themselves.
It doesn't matter who visits, India will follow its own process and the best (and cheapest) sub will win.
President and PMs visited India during MMRCA with their own deals too, nothing worked.
Yep. They are MMRCA's Typhoon to Korea's Rafales.
Nah, the sub is not sufficient to meet requirements. Second-hand Kilos are a better option. Extremely cheap and gives 10 years.
Doesn't make sense to order Scorpenes now, it will take the same time as P-75I to deliver. It was a decision for 5+ years ago.
I think it's logical to go with both programs.
Even the most accelerated timelines for P75I won't see the 1st sub before the 3rd follow on Scorpene is in water.