Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

Who will win the P75I program?

  • L&T and Navantia

    Votes: 13 37.1%

  • MDL and TKMS

    Votes: 9 25.7%

  • It will get canceled eventually

    Votes: 13 37.1%
  • Total voters
    35
suryakiran said:
And therein lies the problem. Instead of doing a Galwan or pushing a Balakot further, we sit and wait for them to happen.

There is nuclear deterrence and then conventional deterrence. What we lack is the ability to inflict pain under the nuclear umbrella.
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More than ability- we lack balls at the top- or at least used to until Modiji happened. The intent- "if you're bad then I'm your dad", was sorely missing- as seen in our response to 26/11 or the parliament attack before that.

Now at least we are not pushovers- we are actively pushing back where they probe us. It is the same for Taiwan, Japan etc. they also only respond to intrusions from the bad boy.

Maybe another generation change will have to happen before we actively and openly (as opposed to clandestinely) start fingering the adversary. May also have to discard some of the 'Vasudhaiv Kutumbakam' juice.
 
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infra.economictimes.indiatimes.com

L&T and Navantia to jointly bid for Rs45,000 crore submarine deal - ET Infra

The Larsen & Toubro - Navantia partnership will compete with a tie-up between India’s state-run defence shipbuilder Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd and Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems GmbH (TKMS) for the submarine project named P75 (India) or P75 (I).
infra.economictimes.indiatimes.com infra.economictimes.indiatimes.com

Looks like SK has also pulled out.
 
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Fatalis said:
infra.economictimes.indiatimes.com

L&T and Navantia to jointly bid for Rs45,000 crore submarine deal - ET Infra

The Larsen & Toubro - Navantia partnership will compete with a tie-up between India’s state-run defence shipbuilder Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd and Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems GmbH (TKMS) for the submarine project named P75 (India) or P75 (I).
infra.economictimes.indiatimes.com infra.economictimes.indiatimes.com

Looks like SK has also pulled out.
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MDSL & LnT both imo are allowed multiple tieups with OEMs.

When is the RFP due? Year end?
 
Ankit Kumar said:
MDSL & LnT both imo are allowed multiple tieups with OEMs.

When is the RFP due? Year end?
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It's supposed to be 1 company, 1 partner. In the LHD deal too, L&T had partnered with Navantia.

The Koreans must have lost L&T's competition. But there's chatter going round that the Korean govt has stopped DSME.

Spain has pretty much the same advantages as the Koreans. One sub is at sea versus the first Type 212CD to enter service in 2029. But their submarine is bigger than the Korean and German ones. Plus the AIP is bioethanol, but superior to the German offer. So the size and AIP could make it more expensive.

August release for RFP.
 
Fatalis said:
Although I want both shipyards to have a piece of pie but chances are MDL will steal the show.
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I hope not simply because it's the lowest bidder. T1 only gets a 10% price advantage.

My money's on Spain getting T1 and Germany getting L1.

The Norway/German combine signed a deal for 6 subs at $6.5B, Spain bought 4 of theirs for $4.6B. That's roughly $1.1 vs $1.15B.

So, while the Spanish sub is already more expensive, Germany's orderbook could grow further, reducing cost. But the Spanish sub could come with 20-30% more endurance and missiles. Do we want to lose out on a presumably better sub 'cause it's 11% more expensive?
 
randomradio said:
I hope not simply because it's the lowest bidder. T1 only gets a 10% price advantage.

My money's on Spain getting T1 and Germany getting L1.

The Norway/German combine signed a deal for 6 subs at $6.5B, Spain bought 4 of theirs for $4.6B. That's roughly $1.1 vs $1.15B.

So, while the Spanish sub is already more expensive, Germany's orderbook could grow further, reducing cost. But the Spanish sub could come with 20-30% more endurance and missiles. Do we want to lose out on a presumably better sub 'cause it's 11% more expensive?
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I hope the best one prevails but it will really come down to who offers better bid.

If we get the bids by August 2023 then there is a period of 18 months for the testing of different technologies. Then another 6-12 months for background work then only we will sign a deal.
 
I don't know for sure but there exists a possibility that government will interfere and ask both L1 and L2 to build the subs with L1 building 4 and L2 building the other 2.
 
Fatalis said:
I hope the best one prevails but it will really come down to who offers better bid.

If we get the bids by August 2023 then there is a period of 18 months for the testing of different technologies. Then another 6-12 months for background work then only we will sign a deal.
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I just hope the T1 wins.
Fatalis said:
I don't know for sure but there exists a possibility that government will interfere and ask both L1 and L2 to build the subs with L1 building 4 and L2 building the other 2.
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Yeah, that's been the rumour since the longest time.

I hope this deal comes with an options clause, at least 6 more, so it can be split evenly later on. The sooner we get 12 subs, the better.

ATAGS type deal is also possible.
 
Valhalla said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1667734220855451653


S80+ vs Type 214/216
L&T+Navantia vs TKMS+MDSL

Hull mounted hydro planes & X-rudders- the German product is already looking better.
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Although I would like the Germans to offer a modified sub like they did in Singapore and Israel, but they haven't hinted anything yet.

I would be cautious for now. 1 step at a time.

Now waiting for RFP. Let's see if they send it to only 2 OEMs or include France/South Korea too.
Fatalis said:
I don't know for sure but there exists a possibility that government will interfere and ask both L1 and L2 to build the subs with L1 building 4 and L2 building the other 2.
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MDSL has extensive capacity imo now. Untill we are ordering 12 subs at a time. It would be difficult for both to share production.
 
randomradio said:
It's supposed to be 1 company, 1 partner. In the LHD deal too, L&T had partnered with Navantia.

The Koreans must have lost L&T's competition. But there's chatter going round that the Korean govt has stopped DSME.

Spain has pretty much the same advantages as the Koreans. One sub is at sea versus the first Type 212CD to enter service in 2029. But their submarine is bigger than the Korean and German ones. Plus the AIP is bioethanol, but superior to the German offer. So the size and AIP could make it more expensive.

August release for RFP.
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RFP should clarify a few things like necessity of Li batteries, or VLS for LACMs, etc. That would be interesting.

Aug isn't very far.
 
Ankit Kumar said:
Now waiting for RFP. Let's see if they send it to only 2 OEMs or include France/South Korea too.
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RFP is only sent to the 2 strategic partners. OEMs that were rejected by the 2 partners have no part to play here. Their time is over.

Ankit Kumar said:
RFP should clarify a few things like necessity of Li batteries, or VLS for LACMs, etc. That would be interesting.

Aug isn't very far.
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Yeah, but we have some clues already. Li-ion batteries and electric motor are expected to be indigenous. The motor is expected to be 5MW. And I believe the RFI stated 8-12 VLS cells.
 
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suryakiran said:
Isn't the S80 a variant of the Scorpene?
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Fatalis said:
Nope, it looks to be a tailor made product by Navantia for Spain.
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Design influences are certainly there. But Spain after seperating from French on Scorpene project (which also caused a lot of delays in our own P75 program) , did the r&d on their own along with some US consultants.
 
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What if germans offer us Type-212CD ?
Bigger, fuel cell AIP, New hull design, optronics masts, lithium ion battery. Basically, everything state of the art. I would consider it a highly appealing offer.
 
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