Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions
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“It gives us great joy to be in a position to be the design and technology partner for P75(I). We are also in collaboration with L&T for the Landing Platform Dock (LPD) program whose tender is eagerly awaited. With these two prestigious programs for the Indian Navy, Navantia is proud to be making a key contribution towards fulfilling the defence needs of India, a nation with which Spain shares excellent relationship.”
every time i hear about the Navantia S-80 Isaac Peral class, i have a hard time suppressing a giggle.
Do you know this story:
Too heavy, too long: the incredible blunder of Spanish submarines
Due to a stupid miscalculation, the Spanish submarine S-80 could dive but could not float. The engineers decided to lengthen it by 10 m, to improve its buoyancy. Problem, the base of the port of Cartagena is now too short to accommodate it... For ten years, errors, delays and additional costs have been accumulating for this 4 billion euro project.(...) Too heavy by 100 tons
The Spanish Navy had ordered, in 2003, 4 S-80 type submarines from the Navantia shipyard, to replace its fleet of aging Agosta. A project then estimated at 2 billion euros. But not everything went as planned for the Spaniards: in 2013, we discovered that the S-80, whose construction was already well advanced, was too heavy… by 100 tonnes. An overweight which causes a serious problem of buoyancy and which could prevent it from rising to the surface.
According to an official, interviewed by the American news agency AP, "someone had placed a comma after the wrong decimal place and no one had bothered to check the calculations".
Penaud, the Spanish Ministry of Defense appealed (for 14 million euros) to the Americans of Electric Boat to find a solution. Verdict: you have to lengthen the boat to improve its buoyancy. Instead of 71 m long for 2,200 tons, the submarine goes to 81 m, for 3,100 tons. But it still gets stuck: the Cartagena dock (where the submarines are built), was designed to accommodate vessels… up to 78 m. It will therefore be necessary, among other things, to lengthen the port, for 16 million euros.
The bill flies away
The irony of the story does not end there: the modifications could not be applied to the first of the four models. The S-81 (Isaac Peral) was already too advanced in its construction, it will only be modified once delivered. The AIP propulsion system, which allows the submarine to stay underwater for two weeks, may not be able to propel a ship that is 50% heavier, and will not be delivered until 2026 anyway, on the third model.
Between design changes and delays, the total cost of the four submarines is expected to be 4 billion euros. That is double the initial price, and double the price of its competitors on the international market (such as the German Type 214). Initially, delivery of the first model was scheduled for 2014… Navantia is now hoping for staggered delivery between 2022 and 2027.
On Spanish radio, Defense Minister Margarita Robles admitted that there had been “deficiencies on the project” S-80./deepl
Certainly.
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1/Navantia has very little expertise when it comes to submarines.
2/ the spanish aip is anything but "proven".
Yet they have a bigger design in waters closer to our requirement.
We have developed our own AIP, so that's not an issue.
would drdo's aip fit the s-80?
anyway, Navantia still have very little expertise in subs.
That's what gives them the advantage. By the time a contract is signed and construction begins, Spain would have already experimented and built 4 subs. So they can rectify mistakes when designing the Indian sub and make it even better.
Otoh, Germany could make new mistakes. They carry more risk. Their first Type 212CD will be ready only in 2029.
Spain's economy is also in a better state considering its more stable inflation rate. Spain's energy sector is also more stable. And Spain is still importing more and more Russian gas, so their market won't be as chaotic as Germany's.
<span style='color:#780948'>ARCHIVED</span> - Imports of Russian gas to Spain shoot up by 192 per cent
<span Style='color:#780948'>archived</span> - Imports Of Russian Gas To Spain Shoot Up By 192 Per Cent Keep up with the Latest News In English Murcia Costa Calida Spain
murciatoday.com
The entire purpose of whittling down contenders to just 2 was because the others didn't have proven AIP.
DRDO's AIP is for Scorpene and a future indigenous program. P-75I expects an OEM-delivered AIP.
This saga will stretch for another 15 years. Post P-75I, we will be having 15 AIP equipped subs out of required 18. Do we need a P-76 just after P-75I or can we go for 3 additional subs in P-75I to reach the targetted number?That's what gives them the advantage. By the time a contract is signed and construction begins, Spain would have already experimented and built 4 subs. So they can rectify mistakes when designing the Indian sub and make it even better.
Otoh, Germany could make new mistakes. They carry more risk. Their first Type 212CD will be ready only in 2029.
Spain's economy is also in a better state considering its more stable inflation rate. Spain's energy sector is also more stable. And Spain is still importing more and more Russian gas, so their market won't be as chaotic as Germany's.
<span style='color:#780948'>ARCHIVED</span> - Imports of Russian gas to Spain shoot up by 192 per cent
<span Style='color:#780948'>archived</span> - Imports Of Russian Gas To Spain Shoot Up By 192 Per Cent Keep up with the Latest News In English Murcia Costa Calida Spain
The entire purpose of whittling down contenders to just 2 was because the others didn't have proven AIP.
DRDO's AIP is for Scorpene and a future indigenous program. P-75I expects an OEM-delivered AIP.
You would think that. It was not possible to specify DRDO API during tender because it's yet to be proven. By the time it enters negotiations ( 3-4 years ) it will be proven and it will be used.
It became a two contender fight because of other requirements like endurance, size etc.
Even the S80 do not have a proven advanced AIP
.
The targeted number of 18 today is for a force projection in 2030. We will need to double the number of subs over time. Also, by the time 9 P-76 are built, the Scorpenes will come up for replacement. And this cycle will go on indefinitely. The IOR's gonna get really crowded over the coming 2 decades.
You would think that. It was not possible to specify DRDO API during tender because it's yet to be proven. By the time it enters negotiations ( 3-4 years ) it will be proven and it will be used.
It became a two contender fight because of other requirements like endurance, size etc.
Even the S80 do not have a proven advanced AIP
DRDO's AIP is not in contention for P-75I.
And the S-80 Plus has AIP, the condition is for it to be sea tested to prove it during the tender process. Except for Germany, Korea and Spain, all other contenders went by the "trust me, bro" principle.
Tomorrow is the last day, Aug 1 , for P75I bid submission. (unless extended again)
2 shortlisted bidders linked up with foreign partners. Hopefully things progress this time.
MDL+TKMS Germany
L&T+ Navantia
I guess the Koreans are out.
2 shortlisted bidders linked up with foreign partners. Hopefully things progress this time.
MDL+TKMS Germany
L&T+ Navantia
I guess the Koreans are out.
does the IN want to cruise into the baltic sea? well... then that's ze way to go...Germany is the way to go, their tech is well proven + Spanish fck ups with S 80 are quite hilarious
A COMPARATIVE BETWEEN THE U-212A AND S-80+ SUBMARINES
Interesting......look like S 80+ is quite a formidable beast compared to U 212A .Germans should offer Type 212CD in my opinion
Interesting......look like S 80+ is quite a formidable beast compared to U 212A .Germans should offer Type 212CD in my opinion
