Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[randomradio]

The only reason behind the exorbitant price tag of french weapons are, the demand is less. simple mathematics, oem has to incorporate the R&D cost with limited production units. The chanting like french stuffs are superior & superior items comes with high price is just absurd when you compares with the f35 or JDAM.

The demand for French weapons is very high. But they lose out on cost in competitions as many countries do not filter out capability during earlier stages, like Singapore, Brazil, Switzerland and S Korea, many more.

In India, we filter out the jets based on capability and then look at the cost.

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“Air Marshal PK Barbora, Ex Vice Chief of Air Staff said, “The Air Force is not looking at price. That’s not our area of concern. What we want is QRs are focussed on technical aspects, latest technology.”

So most countries do not have this luxury.

Dont tell that french hammer is superior to JDAM since later is pure glide bomb & earlier one is powered one, designing a pure unpowered glide bomb is more intricate than a powered bomb unit.

JDAM is inferior to the Hammer.

There are four stages to developing such bombs.

1st stage: Develop a glide bomb with 30Km range. Comes with INS and GPS.
2nd stage: Modify the design with wings to increase the range to 100Km.
3rd stage: Add different types of seekers to the bomb. Laser, IIR, MMW etc.
4th stage: Power the unit.

So Hammer is in the 4th stage. JDAM is in the third stage. India's indigenous glide bombs like HSLD and Garuthmaa are in the second stage. SAAW is being modified for both Stage 3 and 4 in two phases, and other bombs will follow at least to stage 3. Israel is in the third stage for all bomb loads with the SPICE. This year, USAF has shown some interest in a powered JDAM, so it will take a few years to make the American equivalent of the Hammer.

Powered JDAM: Boeing’s New Alternative to Cruise Missiles | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Boeing is developing a long-range version of its Joint Direct Attack Munition called the Powered JDAM, adding an engine to extend its range by 20 times over the conventional glide version of the weapon.

www.airforcemag.com

The JDAM currently comes with only a laser seeker, introduced in 2014, whereas Hammer comes with laser and IIR since 2007-08. Hence the Hammer is superior since it's power as well as has multiple seeker options. Plus the Hammer has a proven combat record in SEAD/DEAD missions.

 

[A Person]

Dont tell that french hammer is superior to JDAM since later is pure glide bomb & earlier one is powered one, designing a pure unpowered glide bomb is more intricate than a powered bomb unit.

In the same way that designing a hangglider is more intricate than designing an airliner...

Smaller production runs are definitely a factor. For instance the Hammer have had a 33% cost reduction after having been ordered by Egypt and Qatar.

 

[vstol Jockey]

It's unlikely to be more advanced than what's going on the Tempest though.

The fan design will be Indian and the afterburner will be Indo-Brit. Since India will own the IP for the core and the rest of the engine, there's no way the Brits will be sharing the more advanced technologies being designed for Tempest.

They may share the IPR which means that within the JV, some IPR will be held jointly, some with individual partners but the product will be top of the line and not old tech like M88 being pushed down the throat.

 

[randomradio]

They may share the IPR which means that within the JV, some IPR will be held jointly, some with individual partners but the product will be top of the line and not old tech like M88 being pushed down the throat.

The M88 tech is meant for immediate use though. K9+ was planned for LCA Mk1A and it would use Indian tech, including the Kabini core. K10 was supposed to be used on LCA Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA Mk1/A. So both engines had to be ready within 2019 for K9+ and a few more years for the K10. The engine with Rolls-Royce will follow a full development cycle with a 10-year timeline, with the PDP stage expected to start after contract is signed. So even if the M88 core is older, all our indigenous jets would have had indigenous engines. At the very least, the K10 would have been as advanced or more advanced than the F404 and F414.

Anyway 100% of the foreground IPR will rest with India for both the Rolls-Royce engine and the K10 with M88 core. There's no sharing of IP.

 

[vstol Jockey]

The M88 tech is meant for immediate use though. K9+ was planned for LCA Mk1A and it would use Indian tech, including the Kabini core. K10 was supposed to be used on LCA Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA Mk1/A. So both engines had to be ready within 2019 for K9+ and a few more years for the K10. The engine with Rolls-Royce will follow a full development cycle with a 10-year timeline, with the PDP stage expected to start after contract is signed. So even if the M88 core is older, all our indigenous jets would have had indigenous engines. At the very least, the K10 would have been as advanced or more advanced than the F404 and F414.

Anyway 100% of the foreground IPR will rest with India for both the Rolls-Royce engine and the K10 with M88 core. There's no sharing of IP.

You need to know the most recent developments of RR in creating an internal generator for the Tempest engine and that has very high outpout. The use of CMC is allowing us to reduce the length of the engines and also go for much higher tempratures in the core. GE infect tested an engine combined with normal generator with power output from LP turbine which gave 1MW output. 250Kw from the Gen and another 750Kw from the LP Turbine. The IPR of RR will be available to us for the JV RR-GTRE engine. Safran is nowhere close to such technology.

 

[randomradio]

You need to know the most recent developments of RR in creating an internal generator for the Tempest engine and that has very high outpout.
The use of CMC is allowing us to reduce the length of the engines and also go for much higher tempratures in the core. GE infect tested an engine combined with normal generator with power output from LP turbine which gave 1MW output. 250Kw from the Gen and another 750Kw from the LP Turbine. The IPR of RR will be available to us for the JV RR-GTRE engine. Safran is nowhere close to such technology.

I know, we spoke about it when Milspec, you and I were discussing about power generation a few months ago. They call it the embedded electrical starter-generator.

Rolls-Royce develops world-first electrical technology for next-generation Tempest programme

Rolls-Royce develops world-first electrical technology for next-generation Tempest programme

www.rolls-royce.com

But I don't think that's going to be available for us. I'll actually be very surprised if they do make it available. We'll have to keep our expectations lower than that.

 

[vstol Jockey]

But I don't think that's going to be available for us. I'll actually be very surprised if they do make it available. We'll have to keep our expectations lower than that.

Do you think we will settle for anything less than that? M88 is what fools need. If we are going to put our money, we need the best. Just wait and watch how French will be replaced by British post EU exit from most of weapon deals in India. You do not know what I know and the amount of JVs which has been offered to us by British to rekindle their aerospace industry free of EU and especilly France.

 

[Hydra]

You need to know the most recent developments of RR in creating an internal generator for the Tempest engine and that has very high outpout. The use of CMC is allowing us to reduce the length of the engines and also go for much higher tempratures in the core. GE infect tested an engine combined with normal generator with power output from LP turbine which gave 1MW output. 250Kw from the Gen and another 750Kw from the LP Turbine. The IPR of RR will be available to us for the JV RR-GTRE engine. Safran is nowhere close to such technology.

If we are going with RR JV, is it possible we to have a partnership in Tempest?

 

[randomradio]

Do you think we will settle for anything less than that? M88 is what fools need. If we are going to put our money, we need the best. Just wait and watch how French will be replaced by British post EU exit from most of weapon deals in India. You do not know what I know and the amount of JVs which has been offered to us by British to rekindle their aerospace industry free of EU and especilly France.

M88 is done. Instead of choosing it early on and replacing the F404 and F414, we have decided to import all our engines from the US instead. The IAF shouldn't have backed out of the deal with France nearly a decade ago. Instead we will now be directly importing and assembling 200 F404s and 300 F414s resply. With the M88 deal, it would have been only some 60 F404s imported for the LCA Mk1 and the trainers. No point crying about spilt milk now.

Now only the indigenous Ghatak and AMCA's engine with RR are active.

As for the British offers, with the exception of an air superiority drone, which we are incapable of developing on our own right now, we do not really need anything else in the combat segment. We have our own UAV and UCAV plans. So I hope to see a JV for an air superiority drone that can complement our IUSAV. Doesn't matter which country we choose, both are capable enough in this area, and both are developing drones as wingmen for their own programs. Other than that, most of the JV offers will be rejected by DRDO anyway. So I wouldn't expect us to sign up for anything except what is extremely risky for us.

 

[randomradio]

If we are going with RR JV, is it possible we to have a partnership in Tempest?

UK offered a JV for Tempest a long time ago. I don't think we are going to show interest in it.

With Italy and Spain joining Tempest, there's nothing left for India to do anyway. And with the UK offering an engine design to India, we can instead throw money at our own research.

Also, the British design is unlikely to be suitable for our needs, since we need an agile design due to our mountaineous terrain. The Tempest skips out on a tail as well as TVC, both make it unsuitable to navigate dangerous terrain. Otoh, France has created a hybrid fin-tail design with TVC, so they are not skipping out on agility. It's a much more radical design and more suitable for our environment. The USAF's PCA should be even more radical, since they are chasing after a flying wing design even for air superiority. Regardless, AMCA is being designed specifically for our environment, so even though it's nothing more than an F-22 cousin, it's more suitable for us.

In the future, we will need a more radical design to replace the MKI. The design phase should start sometime in 2030 if we are to see an MKI-replacement in 2045. So we don't have the need to import anything, especially when we ourselves will have all the technology needed for future designs.

Anyway our ACM's already said there's no plan to sign up for foreign designs. So the time for large scale imports is pretty much done once MRFA is complete. The IAF is now considering indigenisation as its highest priority. No more JVs or imports for critical systems in the future.

 

[Hydra]

UK offered a JV for Tempest a long time ago. I don't think we are going to show interest in it.

With Italy and Spain joining Tempest, there's nothing left for India to do anyway. And with the UK offering an engine design to India, we can instead throw money at our own research.

Also, the British design is unlikely to be suitable for our needs, since we need an agile design due to our mountaineous terrain. The Tempest skips out on a tail as well as TVC, both make it unsuitable to navigate dangerous terrain. Otoh, France has created a hybrid fin-tail design with TVC, so they are not skipping out on agility. It's a much more radical design and more suitable for our environment. The USAF's PCA should be even more radical, since they are chasing after a flying wing design even for air superiority. Regardless, AMCA is being designed specifically for our environment, so even though it's nothing more than an F-22 cousin, it's more suitable for us.

In the future, we will need a more radical design to replace the MKI. The design phase should start sometime in 2030 if we are to see an MKI-replacement in 2045. So we don't have the need to import anything, especially when we ourselves will have all the technology needed for future designs.

Anyway our ACM's already said there's no plan to sign up for foreign designs. So the time for large scale imports is pretty much done once MRFA is complete. The IAF is now considering indigenisation as its highest priority. No more JVs or imports for critical systems in the future.

Sometimes back i have read a news that UK is working on new technology to replace flaps & fins of fighter jet without compromising agility & it may incorporate on their sixth gen fighter. Didn't hear anything about it after that.

And if we want to replace mki, we need another powerful engine. Do we have any such program right now? What we are trying is another 110KN engine. I seriously beleive the RR offered a engine also of having similar thrust performances, With that engine there is no way we will have another stealth heavyweight.

 

[randomradio]

Sometimes back i have read a news that UK is working on new technology to replace flaps & fins of fighter jet without compromising agility & it may incorporate on their sixth gen fighter. Didn't hear anything about it after that.

No clue. Probably only experimental.

And if we want to replace mki, we need another powerful engine. Do we have any such program right now? What we are trying is another 110KN engine. I seriously beleive the RR offered a engine also of having similar thrust performances, With that engine there is no way we will have another stealth heavyweight.

We don't necessarily need a fighter jet that replaces the MKI to be as big as the MKI. Anyway, this fighter jet will have to be far more advanced than all the ones in development right now. So we may very well be talking about hybrid engines. No one has such a program for fighter jets right now.

 

[Hydra]

No clue. Probably only experimental.



We don't necessarily need a fighter jet that replaces the MKI to be as big as the MKI. Anyway, this fighter jet will have to be far more advanced than all the ones in development right now. So we may very well be talking about hybrid engines. No one has such a program for fighter jets right now.

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[randomradio]

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It appears to be experimental.

 

[Gautam]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1309911689383403521

 

[_Anonymous_]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1309911689383403521

Is it safe to share the identity of the IAF personnel especially in times like these ? @vstol Jockey ; @Falcon

 

[Bon Plan]

It's a new design.

The last jet engine fully engineered by RR is the Spey....
RB199, EJ200, F136 : they only studied and produced a part. It is a real challenge for them to go for a whole project....

Even in the liner engine the RR situation is not so brilliant.

 

[Bon Plan]

Agree with you but for the f4.2 it will take another 4 years after it is ordered so a total of 6-8 years before we see f4.2 by that time the Chinese will have 100 of j20C's with much more stealth. It doesn't get more difficult...

See F3R : qualified by french DGA in november 2018. 10 first french planes equipped end of 2018. 1 month....

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as F4 is more ambitious it will take some more time, but NEVER 4 years. Especially with a close customer as India.

This delusion peddled by French posters that the 36 rafale's will basically curbstomp the Chinese and Pakistanis at the same time is a joke.

never one french said that.

 

[ghostwhowalks]

Do you think we will settle for anything less than that? M88 is what fools need. If we are going to put our money, we need the best. Just wait and watch how French will be replaced by British post EU exit from most of weapon deals in India. You do not know what I know and the amount of JVs which has been offered to us by British to rekindle their aerospace industry free of EU and especilly France.

If that is the case, then will India not get more Rafales? I can tell you for a fact, that India will order 36 more rafales before March 2022, unless France does something drastically stupid.

The brits have NOTHING to offer to us by way of a fighter jet today. Future developments are all fine, but immediate needs are critical, and french warplanes are by far the best IAF has- even today M2Ks are the darling of IAF despite the huge SU30 fleet.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

First Flight of French AF Rafale in F3R Standard has Indian Co-Pilot

The first flight of the French Air Force (FAF) Rafale jet in the F3R standard-equipped with the new generation Talios Targeting Pod- took off in the skies of Mons, France, on September 22.

A unique feature of the mission was that an Indian air force (IAF) pilot operated from the rear-seat of the twin-seater jet, French Ministry of Defense announced on September 30.

The flight was undertaken by the fighter and experimentation squadron of the (FAF) Center of Military Air Expertise (CEAM), whose core business consists of testing future equipment.

“The Air and Space Army is contributing to the rise of the Indian Air Force on the use of the Rafale. It was therefore natural that the Indian partners could realize the possibilities offered by the Talios Pod,” the release said.

The purpose of the mission was to demonstrate the capabilities of the Talios in the air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea domains. For this first flight, the Indian pilot was able to note the added value provided by the Talios compared to the (older Domacles) sensors.

Concerning the air-to-ground capacity, the effectiveness of the Pod Talios both in its use during deep strike missions and in the detection and engagement of small moving targets was comprehended. In the air-to-sea domain, the Talios has proven itself in the tracking of boats.

The first operational capability of the Talios is expected for October 2020, in order to be able to deploy it very quickly in theaters of operations. It brings extended capabilities compared to the (older) Damocles pod, in particular by the increased precision of its optics, the improvement of the geo-location, the tracking of moving targets, the augmented reality to add markers on the area, and an infrared capability.