Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Don't ask me proof , my assumption is there won't be further order for Rafale from us. Reason is, asper @randomnradio the mmrca2 delivery time line will be 2026-28, by that time MK2 will be matured or atleast in the last lap of development. We know how much HAL's pressure on IAF & MOD will be for more MK2s then. Also our politicians doesn't even know the difference between apples and oranges when comes to defence. They don't see any difference between Mk2 & Rafale .
Also there is high probability that TEDBF maturity will be achieved by 2028-30 time frame Harshvardhan Thakur has already tweeted that TEDBF doesn't require any modifications for land based operations.
These people will not allow for more rafales, they will not say anything about the capabilities rafales have .
Finally due to the failure of current government in tackling the covid pandemic second wave,there is chance for BJP losing election in 2024, then it's definitely sayanora for more Rafales with IAF, Raga's vengeance on Rafale is so high , just like VP Singh's vengeance on RAW. We all know how RAW's operations were destroyed by home after coming to power

Also recently @Picdelamirand-oil desperately said that it's difficult to sell jets to India,and France already have abundance orders for rafales from other countries. If India orders more it's good or not ordering more also fine.

It's unfortunate that we are not ordering more fighter jets like rafales more , I was in an impression that GOI will place orders for atleast 36-54 more Rafales during Modi's visit. But chances are seems to be low to nil.

My feeling is that another order for 36 Rafales will happen , but MMRCA 2.0 Is dead .

Also the Development of ASTRA MK 2 And SFDR will make Rafales and Meteors look much more expensive

If SFDR can achieve Meteor' s Performance , then we have an excellent alternative to Meteor

Also there are Many long Range Air to Ground Munitions being Developed and Inducted , and some Israeli weapons like Rampage missile and Spice 2000 will be integrated with Tejas

The only issue is J 20 and if PAF gets J 10C

 

[TARGET]

My feeling is that another order for 36 Rafales will happen , but MMRCA 2.0 Is dead .

Also the Development of ASTRA MK 2 And SFDR will make Rafales and Meteors look much more expensive

If SFDR can achieve Meteor' s Performance , then we have an excellent alternative to Meteor

Also there are Many long Range Air to Ground Munitions being Developed and Inducted , and some Israeli weapons like Rampage missile and Spice 2000 will be integrated with Tejas

The only issue is J 20 and if PAF gets J 10C

Agree on 36 Rafales and Astra. For J20 and J10 C threat, It all depends on how good will be AMCA and LCA Mk2

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Interestingly, Egypt's Rafales are to be delivered between 2024 and 2026, and these are the F3R standard. They are interested in the F4 only after these 30 jets are delivered first.

Goes to show that the F4.1 isn't really available for export even for a delivery in 2024 or the Egyptians would have gone for it right away.

I think these are assumptions by journalists who don't have a very clear view of the situation. Formally they are right, the aircraft will be released in F4.1 but they will be capable of F4.2 because even if the development of the standard takes time, the interfaces with the aircraft are the first thing that is defined and that doesn't change anymore, and once we know it we only produce aircraft that are capable of this new standard.

For Finland we propose F4.2 and il will be just a few months after Egypt.

 

[randomradio]

I think these are assumptions by journalists who don't have a very clear view of the situation. Formally they are right, the aircraft will be released in F4.1 but they will be capable of F4.2 because even if the development of the standard takes time, the interfaces with the aircraft are the first thing that is defined and that doesn't change anymore, and once we know it we only produce aircraft that are capable of this new standard.

For Finland we propose F4.2 and il will be just a few months after Egypt.

Finland has only expressed a desire to absorb jets from 2025 if they sign in 2021, there needs to be confirmation that this date will be met by Dassault for the F4.2. Also, they don't mention if it's early 2025 or late 2025. Late 2025 is extremely close to 2026, which was originally my estimated date, with a contract signature in 2023.

 

[Hydra]

My feeling is that another order for 36 Rafales will happen , but MMRCA 2.0 Is dead .

Also the Development of ASTRA MK 2 And SFDR will make Rafales and Meteors look much more expensive

If SFDR can achieve Meteor' s Performance , then we have an excellent alternative to Meteor

Also there are Many long Range Air to Ground Munitions being Developed and Inducted , and some Israeli weapons like Rampage missile and Spice 2000 will be integrated with Tejas

The only issue is J 20 and if PAF gets J 10C

Missile range won't ensure a kill, the feb27 aerial engagement had taught that for both sides. It is the EW suit does matters more, if the discussions happened here are true , only Rafale has the capability to jam an AESA radar, that technology definitely is not with us. No Tejas or its twin cousin TEDBF won't be having such capabilities, atleast during its initial induction time.

 

[Hydra]

RaGa eventually changed his tune and attacked NaMo on the theme that he'd have bought the Rafale for cheaper. So I could actually see him "prove" that by ordering a second batch of 36 -- one that wouldn't have the infrastructure cost (basing for 72 including in the first order) nor the ISE R&D cost...

He blindly ridiculed Rafale a lot,now he cannot go back & change what he had done. If he had questioned modi/NDA for settling with mere 36 in place of whopping 126, then he would be in a position to go ahead with Rafale. But as of now Rahul cannot pursue Rafale deal,he doesn't have any convincing power to make his followers to convince if he goes for more rafale purchase.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

He blindly ridiculed Rafale a lot,now he cannot go back & change what he had done. If he had questioned modi/NDA for settling with mere 36 in place of whopping 126, then he would be in a position to go ahead with Rafale. But as of now Rahul cannot pursue Rafale deal,he doesn't have any convincing power to make his followers to convince if he goes for more rafale purchase.

Fiery meeting of Parliamentary standing committee on defence as Rahul Gandhi questions Bipin Rawat on Rafale, defence expenses | India News

Rahul Gandhi has been vociferously attacking the Modi government over the India-China disengagement agreement in eastern Ladakh.

www.google.com

In January , Rahul Gandhi questioned the Government as to why they are NOT buying 126 Rafales and only 36

Redirect Notice

 

[randomradio]

Agree on 36 Rafales and Astra. For J20 and J10 C threat, It all depends on how good will be AMCA and LCA Mk2

AMCA is meant for the 2040s. LCA Mk2 is competitive with the J-10, not the J-20.

 

[randomradio]

but MMRCA 2.0 Is dead .

Then a huge chunk of the IAF's modernisation budget will have to be returned unspent.

Also the Development of ASTRA MK 2 And SFDR will make Rafales and Meteors look much more expensive

You can call SFDR as Astra Mk3 now. Anyway, both missiles can be integrated with Rafale or any other jet we buy.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

A Mirage 2000 with a Rafale nose

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

@Picdelamirand-oil what would be the future of Rafale fighters post 2040? Do you have any plan to upgrade Rafale beyond F5 version?
You will be getting new stealth fighter by 2040 I guess. So chances Rafale's time upgrade will be a problem after that time frame I fear.

 

[A Person]

Yeah, a Mirage 2000 was used as a test bench for the OSF and for the AESA. Seen below during the actual bench tests, rather than with a dummy nose.

However, it's only good as a test bench -- the extra weight from the OSF changed its center of mass, and as a result its flight characteristics were degraded. In other words: not a viable upgrade path for the Mirage 2000.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

AMCA is meant for the 2040s. LCA Mk2 is competitive with the J-10, not the J-20.

If AMCA is delayed then SU 57 will have to be bought

Missile range won't ensure a kill, the feb27 aerial engagement had taught that for both sides. It is the EW suit does matters more, if the discussions happened here are true , only Rafale has the capability to jam an AESA radar, that technology definitely is not with us. No Tejas or its twin cousin TEDBF won't be having such capabilities, atleast during its initial induction time.

See the Next Engagement will NOT be like the Previous one

There is No need to send your Fighter planes , when Enemy SAMs and Radars are still working , First Take them out
With ANTI Radiation missiles or Cruise missiles

Yes that is escalation , but then we cannot rely only on Rafales to enter Enemy Air space

Rafales are Best suited for Offensive Fighter Sweeps with Meteors or Chasing away the Enemy Awacs

 

[randomradio]

If AMCA is delayed then SU 57 will have to be bought

It has to be bought regardless, these two do not compete.

but then we cannot rely only on Rafales to enter Enemy Air space

That's the point of it and the reason why it's being called a game changer.

Shooting at other jets and AWACS with long range missiles can be done by any jet. There's no difference between LCA Mk1A firing Meteors versus Rafale firing Meteors.

 

[randomradio]

only Rafale has the capability to jam an AESA radar, that technology definitely is not with us.

Yes, we do. The Mig-29UPG carries an Indian EW suite called the D-29 which can do it. We built it using Israeli help.

Development of D-29 System (Internal EW system for MIG-29 Upgrade Aircraft) | Defence Research and Development Organisation - DRDO, Ministry of Defence, Government of India

D-29 is an integrated EW system for Radar warning and jamming that encompasses RWR, ECM, ESM functions and utilizes state-of-the-art active phased arrays for selectively jamming the multiple threat radars. The D-29 system serves primarily as a self-protection jammer that will boost...

www.drdo.gov.in

The MKI's new jamming capability has been developed entirely inhouse.

EXCLUSIVE: How A Secretive DRDO Lab Is Saving The IAF Su-30MKI - Livefist

Several layers of biometric security protect one of India's most secretive military laboratories in Bengaluru, housed in a building where there are unsually low noise levels at all time. It's an almost modest level of sound for an institution that has put India…

www.livefistdefence.com

 

[A Person]

Shooting at other jets and AWACS with long range missiles can be done by any jet. There's no difference between LCA Mk1A firing Meteors versus Rafale firing Meteors.

The difference is that LCAs are not going to shoot Meteors, because integration is quite unlikely.

 

[Hydra]

Yes, we do. The Mig-29UPG carries an Indian EW suite called the D-29 which can do it. We built it using Israeli help.

Development of D-29 System (Internal EW system for MIG-29 Upgrade Aircraft) | Defence Research and Development Organisation - DRDO, Ministry of Defence, Government of India

D-29 is an integrated EW system for Radar warning and jamming that encompasses RWR, ECM, ESM functions and utilizes state-of-the-art active phased arrays for selectively jamming the multiple threat radars. The D-29 system serves primarily as a self-protection jammer that will boost...

www.drdo.gov.in

The MKI's new jamming capability has been developed entirely inhouse.

EXCLUSIVE: How A Secretive DRDO Lab Is Saving The IAF Su-30MKI - Livefist

Several layers of biometric security protect one of India's most secretive military laboratories in Bengaluru, housed in a building where there are unsually low noise levels at all time. It's an almost modest level of sound for an institution that has put India…

www.livefistdefence.com

Nowhere its mentioned that it is capable of jamming AESA radar.

 

[vikata]

I have a question @randomradio@picdelamirand-oil
Even though IAF has a capex which is nearly same as those of the total defense budget of Pakistan
Where exactly is money going, we lack modern weapon Which can outrange them convincingly, they always seems to find a way to match us. Even claiming to the extent that they are a decade ahead in network centric warfare..
We lack awacs, refuellers... Where the heck our money is being spent....

For a nation with nearly 3 trillion gdp, it's a sorry state that we can't even provide modern plane like rafales and f35 to IAF and have to do with soviet relics.....

We seems to have unfettered acess to the best of Israeli /French technology.....
Are we guys so incompetent that we can't even learn from the best .

We are taking years to give further orders for rafale, which should have been cheaper..
As it is the only plane which should provide real deterrence against china sans f35

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

As an observer, I have noticed several things:

• First, you overestimate yourself, which leads you to want to produce systems with excellent performance in a very short time without wanting to go through all the necessary steps to acquire the experience that will allow you to obtain this performance. The result is that the project takes 8 times longer than you think it will and finally it is very expensive when the goal was to make it 3 times cheaper than its western counterpart.
• Secondly, you think that production in India is cheaper than in the West because the cost of labor is cheaper there. But if this were true, the West would not export anything, in fact the difference in labor costs reflects exactly the difference in labor productivity, which makes it possible to balance the trade in exportable goods. The main explanation for these differences in productivity is that production in the West is more automated.
• Finally, your administration is a nightmare in addition to being incompetent and you tend to project your own shortcomings onto your partners, which makes you distrustful even when it is not necessary.

 

[vikata]

As an observer, I have noticed several things:

• First, you overestimate yourself, which leads you to want to produce systems with excellent performance in a very short time without wanting to go through all the necessary steps to acquire the experience that will allow you to obtain this performance. The result is that the project takes 8 times longer than you think it will and finally it is very expensive when the goal was to make it 3 times cheaper than its western counterpart.
• Secondly, you think that production in India is cheaper than in the West because the cost of labor is cheaper there. But if this were true, the West would not export anything, in fact the difference in labor costs reflects exactly the difference in labor productivity, which makes it possible to balance the trade in exportable goods. The main explanation for these differences in productivity is that production in the West is more automated.
• Finally, your administration is a nightmare in addition to being incompetent and you tend to project your own shortcomings onto your partners, which makes you distrustful even when it is not necessary.

But we are also not investing massively in r&d, we only drip feed them and expect miracle. When we limit the funding it obviously expand the duration of the project..

In the last decade we only signed for 36 rafale, agree that we ordered respectable lift capability.

But the question remains, where is money going, that we are in a mess in almost every conceivable front, be it awacs, refuellers, fighters, helos....

Is it a question of too little capex, or incompetency both on the part of IAF and bureaucrats.

I guess IAF must have been enamored with rafales, CDS talked about batched orders, yet we are living in lala land either we will have 126 or nothing. While loosing both men and material...