Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Croatia chose French Rafale​

It was more logical for Croatia to opt for Rafale because of the strategic decision to make the purchase within the EU, then because it is a little used aircraft, which the French Air Force has been using for ten years, and because of the price that should be around 900 million euros.

As expected, Croatia will eventually solve the long-standing problem of the combat squadron by signing an agreement with France. The Government confirms this news after the session of the Defense Council, and it is expected that the Government will announce its decision on the selection of Rafale F3R by Dassault next week, until May 28, when the Armed Forces Day is celebrated or on that day.

Six months ago, an interdepartmental government commission for the selection of aircraft made a Solomon decision and proposed to the government a new aircraft as the winner, the F-16 Block 70/72 , and the winner among the used French Rafale. Although Croatia has so far relied on its main strategic partner, the United States, in arms procurement, for several reasons it has been estimated that this time Lockheed Martin, the F-16 manufacturer, will not win the Croatian tender. First, because this aircraft has not yet started production and there is a queue on the list of customers, so I would get these aircraft in 4 to 5 years at the earliest. The second reason is the price, which would be around 1.5 to 1¸7 billion euros. And even the fact that the U.S. blocked the procurement of Israeli Barracks two years ago probably didn’t help his F-16 win the second tender.

It was more logical for Croatia to opt for Rafale because of the strategic decision to make the purchase within the EU, then because it is a little used aircraft, which the French Air Force has been using for ten years, and because of the price that should be around 900 million euros. A plus for the French is the fact that the Rafal is currently one of the best and most sought after fighter jets in the world, and has been successfully tested in war operations. The French also stressed that if Croatia chooses Rafale, it would boost co-operation and de facto open the door to a larger door to the newly established European Defense Fund.

It could be crucial, however, that France can deliver these aircraft, the first six, during 2024, when the last resources of the MiG 21 HRZ are released, so the continuity of its own sky surveillance can be maintained. If the news about Rafal's choice is confirmed, Croatian pilots and technicians will probably be able to go to training in 2022, and a contract should be signed by the end of 2021. Pilot training will take about two years.

Pročitajte više na: Hrvatska je odabrala francuski Rafale - www.vecernji.hr

 

[kor4116]

Proves the point.

LOL is on Rafale that will not get the UAE order now.

Just because the UAE buys the F-35 doesn't mean that Rafale's chances are gone. They are operating the M2000-9 in the Air Force and Rafale is not right now, but there is still an opportunity. Rather, they appear to be waiting for Rafale 4.2. 4.2 has a different level of performance compared to the previous version. If the UAE purchases the previous version, it cannot be upgraded to 4.2.

 

[A Person]

As long as the USA are bankrolling both Israel (largest by far recipient of US military aid) and Egypt (second largest recipient of US military aid, even if far behind Israel), a conflict between both seems quite unlikely. Especially given the Arab countries have, by and large, decided to normalize their relationship with Israel and forget about the Palestinians -- something they had in effect already done long ago, but are now doing officially. With the destruction of Iraq by the USA, Syria by civil war, and Lebanon by its own corruption, Israel no longer has any organized enemy among the Arab countries -- only Iran remains, and all the Sunni Arab countries are also enemies of Iran, so now they're allies of Israel.

So the question of who would win in a fight between Israel F-35 and Egyptian Rafale seems to me to be completely pointless fanboy nonsense.

 

[_Anonymous_]

It is because many people are like you that Israel has much more to lose in terms of reputation than the Egyptians. And if there was a skirmish between Egyptian Rafales and Israeli F-35s, I think it would be the F-35s that would go down.

I understand truth is bitter especially when it comes to both France's & Israel's overall track record particularly when it comes to co operation with each other. After all, France played a stellar role in the Israeli NWP.

Coming to the Rafales , guess you'd sing the same tune when the 6th Gen US fighters are procured by Israel.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Coming to the Rafales , guess you'd sing the same tune when the 6th Gen US fighters are procured by Israel.

I would do it very willingly, unless I will be already dead, which is likely given my age.

 

[randomradio]

Egypt has already ordered 54 Rafales and is thinking of increasing this total to 72 or 100, and Qatar has ordered 36 and has an option for another 36. Since the beginning of the year, we have sold 18 Rafales to Greece, 30 Rafale to Egypt and we have just sold 12 Rafale to Croatia, which makes 60 Rafale.

Moreover Indonesia is doing the administrative work to buy 36 Rafale and we have good chances in Switzerland and Finland.

We are getting closer and closer to an Indian Rafale line without the IAF themselves having to place a second order, even without the Swiss and Finnish orders.

At 22/year, the Dassault line cannot handle more than 176 jets in the next 8 years. And it looks like apart from 118 confirmed jets for the decade, there's a potential for over 200 new jets. There's no way those orders can be handled without a major boost in production.

Is there anything public on how Dassault plans to handle this?

 

[Hydra]

We are getting closer and closer to an Indian Rafale line without the IAF themselves having to place a second order, even without the Swiss and Finnish orders.

At 22/year, the Dassault line cannot handle more than 176 jets in the next 8 years. And it looks like apart from 118 confirmed jets for the decade, there's a potential for over 200 new jets. There's no way those orders can be handled without a major boost in production.

Is there anything public on how Dassault plans to handle this?

Why should france allow its aviation company to start a production line in India without a single order from India?
"Its complicated to sell jets to India" The way he posts implies that the chance of India going extra Rafale is nill.
Sad part is that our diplomats, politician & officer lobby behaves exactly like how any other indian behaves in shop, annoying bargaining and leave without purchase.

 

[Chain Smoker]

No ECM was not used only on X band it was used from 0.6 to 18 Gz at the begining then upgaded to 0.6 to 40 Gz with F3R and will be upgrade in low band and high band for India. I don't know for low band but for high band it will be more than 300 Gz. I believe for low band it will be 0.2 Gz.


The difference is 9 G against 11 G.

Bro this 0.6 to 40 ghz is ESM not ECM.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

We are getting closer and closer to an Indian Rafale line without the IAF themselves having to place a second order, even without the Swiss and Finnish orders.

At 22/year, the Dassault line cannot handle more than 176 jets in the next 8 years. And it looks like apart from 118 confirmed jets for the decade, there's a potential for over 200 new jets. There's no way those orders can be handled without a major boost in production.

Is there anything public on how Dassault plans to handle this?

What is public is that Mériniac assembly line is able to procure 33 Rafale a year and not 22. And it takes only one year to build a new line similar to the current one in India or in France.

 

[randomradio]

Why should france allow its aviation company to start a production line in India without a single order from India?
"Its complicated to sell jets to India" The way he posts implies that the chance of India going extra Rafale is nill.
Sad part is that our diplomats, politician & officer lobby behaves exactly like how any other indian behaves in shop, annoying bargaining and leave without purchase.

The Indian line is more profitable.

And he's referring to bureaucratic hurdles.

 

[randomradio]

What is public is that Mériniac assembly line is able to procure 33 Rafale a year and not 22. And it takes only one year to build a new line similar to the current one in India or in France.

Yeah, but 33 per year should be using a 24/7 workforce right? And that could mean a significant outgo in pay and perks for the night shift.

As for a second line in France, is it smart to have an 11/year or a 22/year line for only 8 years? In any case it will result in additional costs to the clients, especially when there's a ready-made line available in India. Plus the Indian line can easily switch to making Falcons to cater to the potentially bigger civilian market after 8 years compared to today.

To me it's a no-brainer. The Indian line should start delivering aircraft at a quicker rate than if a new line is made in France. It's definitely going to be cheaper. Dassault will also get an extra jet or two per year because we work in August. And most importantly, it will encourage GoI to abandon MRFA in favour of batch purchases straight from Mihan at the rate of 36-54 every few years in different versions, which will make it cheaper and better for the IAF. And we can be pretty sure that some new markets will open up for France in the 2030s.

 

[Hydra]

The Indian line is more profitable.

And he's referring to bureaucratic hurdles.

Tell bureaucracy that today once again an another mig21 met with accident and we lost one more experienced Fighter pilot.

 

[A Person]

https://www.defense.gouv.fr/dga/actualite/la-dga-realise-la-premiere-campagne-d-essais-du-rafale-au-standard-f4-1

From April 26 to 29, 2021, the French Armament Directorate (DGA) carried out the first Rafale test campaign at F4.1 standard in Istres, under the responsibility of the DGA Flight Tests center of expertise. Currently under development, the F4 standard will bring in particular the helmet cued targeting capability, integrate the Mica NG and the 1000 kg AASM HAMMER bomb. It will also bring the Rafale into the era of collaborative air combat.

Eight complex missions representing 50 aircraft sorties were carried out by test crews from the General Directorate of Armament (DGA), the French Navy, the French Air and Space Army and Dassault Aviation. They made it possible to insert two Rafale in the current state of development of the F4.1 standard within a large-scale air force, with up to 8 aircraft in the combat zone for the tactical phases, as well as slots. in-flight refueling. The Rafale F4.1 was thus able to be tested, in a realistic technical-operational framework: the crews, equipped with SCORPION helmet cuing system, were able to implement the new collaborative combat functionalities, in particular the precise localization of other aircraft by passive means within a patrol. This readiness for use review campaign (revue d’aptitude à l’utilisation, RAU) mobilized numerous air resources from the French Ministry of the Armed Forces: 8 Rafale including 2 Rafale Marine, 2 Mirage 2000 and 2 AlphaJet, to which were added the daily provision of the Mediterranean training area by the Navy, and by significant ground resources from DGA Flight test services: specific air test control, listening rooms and tracking systems. Contributors from Dassault Aviation, Thales and MBDA were also present in order to follow in real time the performance of test flights, to provide their expertise and to benefit directly from the feedback of the crews, rich in lessons to guide the developments in progress. The next Rafale F4.1 RAU campaign will also target the assessment of the capabilities of this new standard in the field of Air-to-Surface missions. It will once again be organized by the DGA Flight Test teams with the assistance of the Forces from 125 "Charles Monnier" air base in Istres.
​

 

[Tatvamasi]

Is it really important to order Rafales from a small country like the UAE?

Egypt has already ordered 54 Rafales and is thinking of increasing this total to 72 or 100, and Qatar has ordered 36 and has an option for another 36. Since the beginning of the year, we have sold 18 Rafales to Greece, 30 Rafale to Egypt and we have just sold 12 Rafale to Croatia, which makes 60 Rafale.

Moreover Indonesia is doing the administrative work to buy 36 Rafale and we have good chances in Switzerland and Finland.

Really, the UAE is like India, if it happens, so much the better, if not, we'll do without it.

Yeah, sour grapes.

Lets hope none of these sales prospects get F-35 clearance by Biden. You will have to write many more "is it really important" self-discovery questions.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Yeah, but 33 per year should be using a 24/7 workforce right? And that could mean a significant outgo in pay and perks for the night shift.

As for a second line in France, is it smart to have an 11/year or a 22/year line for only 8 years? In any case it will result in additional costs to the clients, especially when there's a ready-made line available in India. Plus the Indian line can easily switch to making Falcons to cater to the potentially bigger civilian market after 8 years compared to today.

To me it's a no-brainer. The Indian line should start delivering aircraft at a quicker rate than if a new line is made in France. It's definitely going to be cheaper. Dassault will also get an extra jet or two per year because we work in August. And most importantly, it will encourage GoI to abandon MRFA in favour of batch purchases straight from Mihan at the rate of 36-54 every few years in different versions, which will make it cheaper and better for the IAF. And we can be pretty sure that some new markets will open up for France in the 2030s.

No 33 per year is with normal 8 h a day work time.
One per month is when you begin one plane every month
Two per month is when you begin one plane every two weeks
Three per month : one plane every ten days.
You just need more people to work on the assembly line because there is more work in parallel, but with the slow down of the Falcon lines there is workers available at.

If you use 2X or 3X post you can reduce The 36 months needed to build a Rafale With 2X you reduce by 1.5 only because for example there are posts where you have to wait for a varnish or a glue to dry.

 

[randomradio]

Interestingly, Egypt's Rafales are to be delivered between 2024 and 2026, and these are the F3R standard. They are interested in the F4 only after these 30 jets are delivered first.

Goes to show that the F4.1 isn't really available for export even for a delivery in 2024 or the Egyptians would have gone for it right away.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Interestingly, Egypt's Rafales are to be delivered between 2024 and 2026, and these are the F3R standard. They are interested in the F4 only after these 30 jets are delivered first.

Goes to show that the F4.1 isn't really available for export even for a delivery in 2024 or the Egyptians would have gone for it right away.

Sir , should we buy more F 3 R or wait for F 4 .1

By the way , if we have to fight a Two Front War with 36 Rafales , And assuming Each Rafale Shoots Down 2 Enemy Aircraft Every Day ,
Our 36 Rafales alone can shoot down 200 odd enemy planes in 3 days

Not Bad at all

 

[randomradio]

Sir , should we buy more F 3 R or wait for F 4 .1

By the way , if we have to fight a Two Front War with 36 Rafales , And assuming Each Rafale Shoots Down 2 Enemy Aircraft Every Day ,
Our 36 Rafales alone can shoot down 200 odd enemy planes in 3 days

Not Bad at all

The current Rafales should be able to generate a 10:1 kill ratio against both China and Pak today. So adding even 36 more jets will be helpful, regardless of whether it's F3R or F4.1. It's only when we go into the 2030s that we will need more advanced jets, like the F4.2 or beyond.

 

[Hydra]

Sir , should we buy more F 3 R or wait for F 4 .1

By the way , if we have to fight a Two Front War with 36 Rafales , And assuming Each Rafale Shoots Down 2 Enemy Aircraft Every Day ,
Our 36 Rafales alone can shoot down 200 odd enemy planes in 3 days

Not Bad at all

Don't ask me proof , my assumption is there won't be further order for Rafale from us. Reason is, asper @randomnradio the mmrca2 delivery time line will be 2026-28, by that time MK2 will be matured or atleast in the last lap of development. We know how much HAL's pressure on IAF & MOD will be for more MK2s then. Also our politicians doesn't even know the difference between apples and oranges when comes to defence. They don't see any difference between Mk2 & Rafale .
Also there is high probability that TEDBF maturity will be achieved by 2028-30 time frame Harshvardhan Thakur has already tweeted that TEDBF doesn't require any modifications for land based operations.
These people will not allow for more rafales, they will not say anything about the capabilities rafales have .
Finally due to the failure of current government in tackling the covid pandemic second wave,there is chance for BJP losing election in 2024, then it's definitely sayanora for more Rafales with IAF, Raga's vengeance on Rafale is so high , just like VP Singh's vengeance on RAW. We all know how RAW's operations were destroyed by home after coming to power

Also recently @Picdelamirand-oil desperately said that it's difficult to sell jets to India,and France already have abundance orders for rafales from other countries. If India orders more it's good or not ordering more also fine.

It's unfortunate that we are not ordering more fighter jets like rafales more , I was in an impression that GOI will place orders for atleast 36-54 more Rafales during Modi's visit. But chances are seems to be low to nil.

 

[A Person]

Finally due to the failure of current government in tackling the covid pandemic second wave,there is chance for BJP losing election in 2024, then it's definitely sayanora for more Rafales with IAF, Raga's vengeance on Rafale is so high , just like VP Singh's vengeance on RAW.

RaGa eventually changed his tune and attacked NaMo on the theme that he'd have bought the Rafale for cheaper. So I could actually see him "prove" that by ordering a second batch of 36 -- one that wouldn't have the infrastructure cost (basing for 72 including in the first order) nor the ISE R&D cost...