Instead of second hand mig 29 or looking for second hand mirages why not go for used Rafales?
We can even make it as lease..
@Ankit Kumar
We can even make it as lease..
@Ankit Kumar
Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions
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We need a 4th squadron of Mig-29s, three is not enough. There's the cost advantage as well.
This been discussed earlier, the cost to number & delivery time favours the Russian deal.
But AFAIK no deal has signed with Russians on this regard ( just an indian thing: Delay), so if we had gone for 18 more Rafales at that time when IAF thinks about more mig29s we might have received a tremendously capable jets on time.
Croatia alloted Rafale vs Mig 29 with SMT upgradation which one ll have better cost to benefit ..
Can't compare Croatia with India. We have pretty good Mig infrastructure in the country and we upgrade the jets inhouse.
Croatia is getting 12 used Rafales for $1.2B, whereas we are getting 21 stored upgraded Mig-29s for $1B.
Chuckle
Reminds me of other DRAL claims
Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions
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by now should be close to building falcons in their shed.
It's obvious the study was conducted by the French, and not Anil Ambani.
We have bases for Rafale, paid ISE, DRAL building up...
From figures of LCC and availability of fighters, won't Rafales be better?
Another issue, these migs alone will be service for at least 2 decades after retirement of entire mig29 squads, right?
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Price of 21 mig29 including upgrade is 1 billion$ , finalized?
MiG 29 along with MiG 21 and LCA are for Combat Air Patrols
Rafales and Su 30 should not be wasted for CAPs
Yes. But they are expensive. Any attempt to get 21 Rafales will cost us $3.5B even with everything else covered.
The reason why they are needed is the Migs are our first line of defence against both Pak and China in the north. And an 8-jet detachment has been moved to Ladakh, leaving only some 50 odd jets across 2 commands, which is not enough.
One of the principle reasons being its overwhelming superiority in the entire A2A domain, including dog fighting. It currently carries superior avionics compared to the MKI and bringing the MKI up to higher standards is going to take years. As I've pointed before, QRA requires single engine jets. So during missions where we are on the opposite side of QRA, our enemies will react with the F-16, JF-17 and J-10. And the Mig-29s have been singularly designed to eat these birds for breakfast. That has been their sole purpose since the late 80s.
Furthermore, the development of Mig-35 is also bringing in new technologies. The Mig-29UPG is basically a 4.5th gen aircraft, but with only the AESA radar missing. Rather it's currently much more similar to the Typhoon, with the added advantage that the Mig-29s will soon get IMA based mission computer.
The Rafale also won't do because it's still a very new jet for the IAF. It still has to go through a lot of testing. Our Mig-29 pilots are practically pros on their jet, whereas the Rafale pilots are still rookies on their jet. Plus 21 Rafales will take 5 years to come in, whereas the Mig-29s would take half that time.
There has also been significant changes to sustainment practices of the Mig-29UPG, this has drastically increased its availability and lethality. Post 2035, they will replaced by the LCA Mk2. Since the PAF F-16 numbers have climbed to 70+, we are matching their strength with the Mig-29s. So around the time the F-16s leave service we will also retire these jets. However the PAF plans to operate their 18 F-16 B52s as far as 2050, so you can expect us to match their deployment with the new batch of 21 jets for as long as possible. In fact I'm expecting the new Mig-29s will be placed opposite to the B52s in the southwest, either in Jamnagar or Deesa.
Not yet. It's under negotiations.
Less demand for business jets globally. But there's still time to begin assembly if they plan to keep their 2022 schedule.
Everything can be agreed except 1) Equating mig29 with typhoon 2) Eating f16 for breakfast, f16 is much superior aircraft than upg i guess, from blk52 onwards.
And lastly why the hell we negotiating to the death for a emergency purchase like this? Cant they understand price is immaterial when requirements are urgent?
We thought it's a low hanging fruit. Can be eaten ASAP.
But we also with out speed of purchase..
It ll be half decaying when it reaches hand.
Su30 deal also similarly.
Hal production got over.. We could have made for another year.
Delays are making plans obsolete ..
L&T made K9 and sitting idle I think.
I won't be surprised if the mig 29 deal becomes expensive and even without aesa radars.
K9 case is a crime. Its arguably the most accurate howitzer in world, we just ended up with 100 just how we ended up around 50 Mirage. Hope we will not make the se mistake with rafale
Croatia chose to replace its old MiG-21
The numbers the IAF needs are incompatible with the numbers the AAE can afford to shed.
Yeah, there are difference in terms of airframe design and performance, but what sets an aircraft apart from the other is the avionics. While the Mig-29 has more or less the same avionics, like the radar, but the main differences are the EW suite and sensor fusion that pushes the Mig-29 ahead of the Typhoon.
The Mig-29's EA capability is internal and is located in strategic areas of the aircraft, like the wing root, whereas the Typhoon carries it in pods on wing tips, so the Mig-29 has better chances to hide. And the Mig-29 has IMA based mission computer, while the Typhoon doesn't. So even with greater specs and some additional avionics on the Typhoon, like MAWS, these two factors alone push the advantage towards the Mig-29.
The only thing missing are Meteor and ASRAAM-equivalent missiles. Both are coming to the Mig-29 with Astra Mk2/3 and an indigenous next gen WVR missile, if not the ASRAAM itself. And neither aircraft can take full advantage of the Meteor/Astra Mk3 without AESA radars, so they are in the same boat.
Eats the F-16 for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Superior range, superior kinematics, superior weapons, superior avionics etc. The Mig-29UPG leaves the F-16 B52 and lower behind. Gets worse when you bring in the PAF version. Limited EW capabilities, inferior BVR and WVR missiles, no JHMCS, no sensor fusion, no possibility of getting better weapons etc. The JF-17B3 now has better BVR capability than their F-16, at least on paper.
Don't think it's slow. DAC clearance came quick and it happened only last year.
Ahead of Typhoon, come on... The more advanced Mig35 didn't even qualify for mmrca technical parameters, only rafale & Typhoon had made in to the final list.
'Cause of Typhoon's performance, which the Mig-29 cannot compare with. But that's not the point. Because the IAF's Mig-29 is not going to be fighting the Typhoon. The Mig-35 offered to India was basically a Mig-29UPG with a new airframe and an AESA radar. The latest Mig-35 is completely different.
We will continue this discussion once Typhoon gets sensor fusion and a capable SDR. Until that happens, it will remain inferior to the Mig-29, because it's not just its own systems, the Mig-29UPG can fuse information from AWACS, ground radars, other fighter jets, drones etc. So any limitations of its own sensors will become irrelevant. Without sensor fusion and SDR, the Typhoon is still a 4th gen aircraft.
Also you have to remember that MMRCA evaluations were 12 years ago. Times have changed a lot since then.
I assume mig 29 will take 5 years for induction.
Mrfa might drag for 10 years.. End result can ba anything.
ok,
Less demand for business jets globally. But there's still time to begin assembly if they plan to keep their 2022 schedule
