LOL. xxxxx brother of @WHOHE.
RDY radar was far far better F16A/B radar. Far better than F16C/D radar. During the first training against every opponent it beat all of them.
The US took the lead again with PESA&AESA radar, for a time.
Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions
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RDY radar was far far better F16A/B radar. Far better than F16C/D radar. During the first training against every opponent it beat all of them.
The US took the lead again with PESA&AESA radar, for a time.
While the import lobby is working hard to kill any indigenous project in the making, at least defence forum members should assess the pros of cons of going for Rafales vs fastracking existing projects like TEDBF and MWF which will pave the way for complete self-reliance
IAF and MoD have been silent in regards to the MRFA (or wateva crap they call). Even if they get their thoughts straight and decide to make a decision, they'll most likely call in for tenders all over again with an intense competition between French and US. If the Rafales are finalized and the order quantity is in significant numbers, we'd start negotiations for ToT and localized production with the negotiations and contract signing alone taking several years. If the jets are built in France, we'd be at the bottom of the list with France eyeing more orders than the current ones signed. If we go for license production, onboarding vendors, setting up of facility and supply chain, training, quality control etc would all take a ton of time resulting in the first aircraft delivery in late 2020s
While MWF has most of the technologies in place, commonality with LCA and TEDBF is also in line with this. It's better to go that route imo since I don't expect a full scale war with china or pak. Irrespective of the effectiveness of JF-17 and though it's a complete chinese jet painted in PAF colors, pakistanis have a better procurement policy while all we do is run like headless chickens and panic buying whenever there's an escalation
No matter how hard we try , MK 2 cannot be fast tracked
We are still struggling with MK 1A , and MK 2 is an entirely new plane
My feelings and wishes are exactly similar to you , but we cannot overlook hard facts and realities
Both PAF and PLAAF are rapidly modernising and we are stuck up with only 36 RAFALES
I'm speculating that the GoI wants to order 36 ( or 54 ) nos more for IAF & close the chapter on this topic at least for the time being with a window being kept open for additional procurements towards the end of the decade. The IAF seems adamant to go in for an additional 114 vide the MRFA tender in a single purchase.
Therein lies the bone of contention as the IAF having been forced to modify it's procurement plans repeatedly over the last 2 decades isn't in any mood to oblige the government. Then there's the previous history of the 80's & 90's looming over the IAF which in turn affected their plans for 2000 & beyond. I don't blame the IAF for being once bitten twice shy.
I'm also assuming that whatever tacit understanding the GoI / MoD had with the IAF post the IGA with France for the purchase of the 1st tranche of the Rafales lies in tatters. There's a real trust deficit between both parties increasingly unfolding into the public domain via the IAF objections to the theaterization process or their non inclusion of the Mk-2 in their future procurement plans made public or even their objections to the late Gen Rawat when he was CDS suggesting incremental purchases a la the MKIs.
What's the way out ? Long story short . In March the IN is hosting the Hornets for sea trails post which the IN is expected to submit it's evaluation to the government. If the difference between the two fighters isn't much in the technical evaluation , I suspect the GoI will lean on both the IN to accept the Rafales & the IAF to fall in line before negotiating a package deal with France / Dassault .
Time is of essence here as the elections are in May 2024 & Modi wouldn't want to risk unnecessary allegations like last time which means the deal would have to be inked by Mar 2023 +/- 3 months at the most . If the deal doesn't materialize by then you can forget about it till 2025.
Plan B which is the MRFA tender would proceed in a business as usual manner though I suspect both the GoI & IAF aren't particularly fond of it for different reasons - the GoI for it's loathe to shell out all those billions of USD in a fixed amount of time , a sentiment the other services would probably share as it is bound to affect their budgets too & the IAF won't be happy for the sheer time taken by the entire tendering process before coming to fruition.
If 114 has to be made in India , A Contract has to be signed before 2024 WITH Mukesh Ambani and RIL
Throw Anil in Jail , make him hand over his stake to RIL
No " माई का लाल " can question RIL , A deal with Anil Ambani
Before 2024 , will destroy BJP and make Rahul the PM
However if Modiji wants to really gift it to Anil , then he will wait for 2024 .
If BJP wins 2024, then Anil gets this deal.
Remember , Anil was the first guy who said that Modi ji should become PM , that too before 2012
All this pre supposes a lot of things but to restrict my observations to a few points -
1 ) We don't really know whether the GoI is even interested in getting the Rafales made in India . What if it isn't & prefers the old off set route.
2.) What about the cost implications ? Dassault manufacturing the Rafales in their Merignac plant will IMO be definitely more economical from our perspective then manufacturing at DRAL Mihan . The latter arrangement may suit Dassault more than it does GoI . Then there's the time frame to be accounted for .
First of all , what I have learnt on Twitter is that IAF wants F 4
Now the question is about Numbers and Money
Anything less than 100 will NOT be made here
So we have to stand in Queue
All these recent orders have Taken away our LEVERAGE
We were hankering for a Mega Deal , with Engine technology and Submarines And wasted a lot of time , since our first Rafale deal Was signed in 2016
Now another question is about the IAF preparedness in case more Rafales get delayed
This is where the Russians come
In , promising upgrades to Su 30 and Su 75
If PAF gets a 100 J 10s , then GOI will wake up
F4 is post 2024. In that case , I don't see what's the hurry all about except that the IAF was fast asleep since 2016 when the MMRCA tender was scrapped following the IGA with France to purchase the first tranche & woke up in December 2021 to draft the SQRs for the MRFA.
Secondly in view of the current situation on the LAC, why exactly would the IAF be adamant about the F4 is beyond me when we need numbers ASAP . Ideally we should have signed up for the 2nd tranche in the 2nd half of 2019 or atleast in the 2nd half of 2020 when the Chinese threat manifested itself. Yet here we are in 2022 & nothing's moved.
I doubt the submarine deal was part of the offsets or some grand package deal though collaboration on the turbofan was.
French members here are of the opinion that they can commence production (?) or assembly at DRAL Mihan with just 26 nos of the Rafale M . I'm assuming this would be subject to an assurance from GoI of expediting a sizeable order of at least 36 more for the IAF. I'm unaware of the cost implications or offsets in addition , if any are applicable.
IAF isn't interested in more MKIs . If more are to be procured they wouldn't have shut down production at HAL Nashik. I suspect more would come in subject to the Super Sukhoi upgrade only in that format. The Su 75 is a paper plane. We've plenty of that in our own pipeline to consider anything else.
MMRCA 1 Was scrapped in 2015
And in 2016 we signed 36 Rafales deal , with delivery to start in 2019
Anyway This Quagmire has many dimensions
Political , Financial , Technological , Strategic ie Package deal , And above all the Military preparedness angle
I read on TWITTER , Congress guys are waiting for UP elections
If BJP looses , they are going to launch a nationwide agitation just like what BJP launched in 2013 , before 2014 election
So politically , any repeat of 2018 Supreme Court Drama will be disastrous for BJP
Su 30 line is still working
Russian ambassador was saying
They are negotiating 50 more
Make Sukhois and put best Jammers on them till the GOI is able to muster up courage for a decision
And please Remove Anil from DRAL
Yes. I guess the new MRFA tender was announced in 2016-17. Doesn't take away from the fact that the SQRs weren't drafted all this while for nearly 5 yrs.
Well then it's business as usual. Already the hijab issue has blown up . You have an official of the Congress - an SC advocate Mr D Kamat from Karwar appearing for the Hijabis in the Karnataka HC . The BJP would or should hit the streets too .
Depends on a lot of factors but a positive UP result should provide a shot in the arm of the BJP.
Nothing's coming out of it though.
The Russians make a lot of claims. Initially even I was taken in by it but there wasn't anything from the MoD or IAF to back it up .
All this is subject to the SQRs the IAF freeze on . It's beyond the GoI's hands .
I don't see getting him out to be a huge issue by the BJP . As of now he's small potatoes . But it's true he's a liability.
Meanwhile Ukraine S**T Is about to hit the Fan
Their President has declared 16 Feb as date of attack
In 2022 , we really need a World War for some excitement
Covid has become boring
With deliveries starting three years after the contract is validated, if you want F4 standard you need to sign in 2021 or later.
Wait, we are in 2021 or later!
It's worse than that. In the near future 4.5 gen are obsolete. Australia wants to retire the super hornet/growler in 2030-35. Only a fanboy would say the Rafale is better than the super hornet block ll and then there is block lll
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Frankly why exactly does the RAAF exist is beyond me? It's not as if P&NG or Fiji or even Samoa is expected to invade you are they? Nor is the RAAF expected to be a part of the defense of Taiwan except for logistics duty.
In view of the above reasons it makes more sense to outsource your air defense & offensive operations to the USAF & divert that money to boost your economy or to fund a nascent automotive industry based on EV or alternative fuels like hydrogen or perhaps spend more on social Security.
I mean take a leaf out of Germany or western Europe. They've made leeching the US into an art form & are utterly shameless about it apart from being apathetic to the consequences.
If it kicks off with China. It's in the Quads interests for India to be ready. While wiki stats, my 4.5 gen fighter is better than yours, is fun. It doesn't count in the real world
Australia post 2030
I suppose France is throwing in a massive discount to " make us an offer we can't refuse. "
Then again UAE has signed an MoU minus disbursement of funds with delivery not before 2027-28 & Indonesia has signed a deal for 42 but confirmed an order for 6. Last heard the latter was offering to pay RoK in coconuts & palm oil as part of their contribution in KAI KF -21 project.
Wonder if they make you the same offer , the French would shift to palm oil from olive oil plus the US can always patch up with the Emiratis & we'd be witness to all too familiar scenes of breast beating here.
India doesn't expect the Quad to join battle if China invades except to provide logistics which is your forte & armaments & intelligence of which you possess neither & isn't yours to give.
Neither is India going to be part of any defence of Taiwan except for providing what I've mentioned we expect from the Quad in case of any exigency
Anything you read apart from what I've posted ought to be taken with a pinch of salt.
You are expecting a lot if you think the IAF will pin their hopes on a post 10-year indigenisation plan over importing a readymade jet today. Even ADA/HAL can't promise what you're expecting. Hell, no one can.
Self-reliance is a 20-year plan for the IAF. MRFA is a 5-year plan. I don't know how people are mixing the two so easily.
The j-10 and f-16 are atleast 0.75 generation behind the Rafale realistically. F-16 and j-10 have higher RCS and can be detected easily compared to Rafale,sh blk 3 and Gripen E. They are not even in the same class. The Rafale can carry double the payload of what the j-10 can carry. And in terms of electronics no other 4th gen fighter comes close to it. They have had sensor fusion, but all eurocanards have it with the Rafale being the most mature.