Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions
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This engineer from Thales is actually saying that rafale F4.3 will be ready in two years (end of the video) in 2026.
I think that as part of Macron's plan to put the French armed forces on a war footing, the government asked manufacturers to speed up their schedules and Dassault said that it could speed up the development of the F4 if the government paid. The government should have said Chiche.
You'll need 'em if you decide to fight Russia. Rafale F4.2/3/4 will need to square off against Su-57M. So you better be ready.
Isn't it normal though? F4.1 in early 2023. F4.2 in late 2024. F4.3 in 2026. Seems okay.
Requires 4-5 years of operations and at least 80-100 jets to become a threat.
We have to see how UAF F-16s and M2000s fare against Su-30SM and Su-35S first.
By the end of this year VKS shall have close to 40 operational Su-57s so that should be a threat.
They're upgrading all 130 Su-30SMs( both Air Force & Navy) to SM2 variant. This makes SM2 almost like 2-seat Su-35S. So over 240 high-end advance 4++ gen heavy-weight fighters that have R-77M and R-37M in their arsenal. Both F-16 and M-2000 would find themselves in trouble, me thinks.
Possibly better than the Su-35, but they are standard Su-57s, not the Ms.
Yeah, it's a pretty good force. The issue is the Russians cannot attack NATO force multipliers. So, if the UAF is allowed to get a full real-time picture of the battlespace, then it's going to 'cause problems. We may even see the Russians attempting to take out NATO assets, and that could trigger a global war.
Another issue is the air force they have developed to date does not give them parity with NATO, it's just a stopgap meant to bridge the gap between the end of the Cold War and the arrival of their next gen programs, the big 3 in particular, PAK FA, DP and DA. So their ability to achieve technological parity with NATO is still 7+ years away.
This is something I've pointed out pretty much 4-5 years ago. This problem is across the board, among all services. They have only just begun their modernization, and it's expected to complete only around 2035. Maybe a bit faster 'cause of the war. So they simply aren't ready to fight NATO on their terms yet. They already made a stupid decision invading Ukraine, but attacking NATO will be stupider than that.
Indian Rafale ‘Haunts’ China’s J-20; PLAAF Deployed 5 Stealth Fighters To Counter 1 Indian Aircraft – IAF Chief
By Ashish Dangwal May 20, 2024In the aftermath of the Galwan clash between India and China, tensions soared to unprecedented levels, leading Beijing to bolster its air power significantly. Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria, the former Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, has revealed that China deployed five times more J-20 stealth fighters than India’s then-newly procured Rafale jets during the standoff.
During the interview on May 19, Bhadauria emphasized the strategic importance of the Rafale fighter jets, describing them as the “strongest weapon system in the inventory” at the time.
He recounted how the arrival of the first Rafale prompted China to station four J-20 fighters in response. As the number of Rafales in India’s arsenal increased to four, China ramped up its deployment to 20 J-20s, resulting in a ratio of five J-20s deployed by Beijing to counter each Rafale.
The J-20, regarded as China’s most advanced fighter aircraft, was a direct countermeasure to the Rafale’s capabilities. “The Chinese knew what we could do,” Bhadauria remarked, indicating the Indian Air Force’s high level of preparedness.
Bhadauria also mentioned the term “salami slicing,” a tactic attributed to China’s gradual encroachment on Indian territory. He recalled the challenges faced before the Rafale acquisition, noting that prior efforts to procure these advanced jets had been unsuccessful until a government-to-government contract facilitated their purchase.
While Bhadauria did not specify the exact locations and times of these deployments, previous reports indicated that in the months following the Galwan clash, China positioned J-20s near the Indian border at the Hotan Airbase in Xinjiang province.
This move came in response to the perceived threat posed by India’s Rafale jets, which had begun conducting night flying exercises in the mountainous terrain of Himachal Pradesh shortly after their induction.
Despite attempts to downplay the deployment in Chinese media, the move’s significance was not lost on international observers, who recognized its implications for regional stability.
Acknowledging the J-20’s long-range capabilities, Chinese media justified the deployment as routine training exercises to enhance operational readiness. However, the strategic positioning of these aircraft near India’s borders highlighted China’s assertive posture in the region.
Since then, China has intensified its military presence at the Hotan Air Base, stationing a diverse pack of fighter jets and drones to bolster its defensive capabilities.
In June 2022, EurAsian Times revealed a substantial buildup, with the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) deploying around two dozen frontline combat aircraft, including the J-11 and J-20 stealth fighters.
5:1 Deployment Against IAF Rafale Fighters
The disclosure by the former Indian Air Force chief has reignited the longstanding debate surrounding India’s Rafale fighter jets and China’s J-20 stealth aircraft.
The revelation that China deployed 20 J-20s to counter just four Rafales has especially sparked discussions regarding the comparative capabilities of these advanced war machines, both touted as crown jewels by their respective air forces.
This deployment ratio not only underscores the Rafale’s perceived potency as a formidable adversary but also prompts inquiries into the efficacy and confidence in the J-20’s ability to neutralize the Rafale threat.
While Chinese authorities have regularly lauded the J-20’s capabilities, claiming it can counter American F-35s and F-22s, many experts persist in their skepticism regarding its true combat prowess.
On the other hand, Indian military officials and experts have placed the Rafale on equal footing with the J-20, citing its operational track record and superior performance.
For instance, in 2020, IAF Air Marshal (Retd) Raghunath Nambiar argued, “Rafale is the best aircraft in the sky at this time. To compare it with what Pakistan has, like F-16 & JF-17, wouldn’t be anything serious. If you had to compare Rafale against Chengdu J-20, I think Rafale stands head & shoulders above them.”
There are clear reasons behind such confident statements. One significant factor is that although the J-20s have been marketed as fifth-generation stealth jets, their primary limitation lies in their lack of proven combat experience.
In contrast, the French Rafale has been operational for almost 25 years, participating in military campaigns in Afghanistan, Libya, Mali, and Syria, where it was engaged in ground strike missions.
While these operations may not exclusively involve air-to-air combat, they demonstrate the Rafale’s capability as a combat-ready aircraft—a distinction that cannot yet be attributed to the J-20.
Retired IAF Air Marshal Anil Chopra echoed these sentiments, suggesting that the J-20 may not live up to its billing as a fifth-generation stealth jet. He highlighted concerns regarding the J-20’s engine, radar, and electronic warfare suite, pointing to instances of new engine development issues and doubts about its overall performance under combat conditions.
Chopra also noted the extensive customization of Indian Air Force Rafale aircraft. These India-specific modifications enhance the aircraft’s capabilities in the region.
Meanwhile, Beijing is aware of the debate surrounding the untested status of the J-20 in real combat scenarios, which remains a noteworthy point of contention.
IAF Rafales To Join US Air Force For Red Flag Exercise In Alaska
Eight Rafale fighter jets of the Indian Air Force (IAF) are flying off to Alaska to take part in the Red Flag Exercise with pilots of the US Air Force. A large team, including over 20 officers, are involved in the exercise, which is for NATO countries, other allies of the USA and partners, like...
Rafale faces off with USAF F-35 in combat simulation against J-20
Get ready for some aerial excitement! The French flagship Dassault Rafale is set to challenge U.S. F-16 and F-35 fighter jets in intense simulated dogfights. On May 30, eight Rafale fighter jets from the Indian Air Force [IAF] touched down at the American Eielson Air Force Base in Alaska.Accompanied by Il-78 air-to-air refueling aircraft and S-17 transport aircraft, the Indian fighters are participating in the Red Flag 24 exercise alongside the United States Air Force [USAF]. This exercise features various combat simulation scenarios, often reflecting potential threats from the past 36 months.
Some experts believe that the strained relations between India and China will be a significant focus. The American F-35 stealth fighter of the fifth generation will likely play the role of the “Chinese J-20,” challenging the Indian Rafale. This provides Indian pilots with a valuable opportunity to gain insights into the J-20, which the Chinese frequently deploy along their border with India.
Changing dynamics
The evolution of these exercises highlights the shifting dynamics of global security. There’s a renewed focus on preparing the United States and its allies for potential scenarios against near-peer rivals, particularly China and Russia.This year’s Red Flag exercises are tightly aligned with the 2022 National Defense Strategy. They emphasize the importance of deterring aggression and tackling emerging challenges in both the Indo-Pacific and Europe.
Red Flag exercises typically run three times a year and cater to varying levels of participation. They range from U.S.-only sessions to broader exercises involving an array of global allies.
F-35 vs J-20
Technically, the F-35 is a multirole fighter designed for versatility across various mission profiles, including air superiority, ground attack, and reconnaissance. The J-20, on the other hand, is primarily designed for air superiority with a focus on long-range engagements and stealth penetration capabilities.In terms of stealth, the F-35 employs advanced radar-absorbent materials and a design optimized for minimal radar cross-section [RCS]. Its internal weapons bays and carefully designed airframe contribute to its low observability.
The J-20 also incorporates stealth features, such as an angular airframe and internal weapons bays, but experts debate whether its stealth capabilities match those of the F-35. Some analysts suggest that the J-20’s larger size and certain design elements may make it more detectable than the F-35.
When it comes to maneuverability, the F-35 is known for its advanced avionics and flight control systems, which provide excellent agility and handling characteristics. It features a single-engine design that, while powerful, is optimized for a balance of speed and maneuverability. The J-20, with its twin-engine configuration, is designed for high-speed performance and long-range operations.
Regarding armament, the F-35 is equipped with a variety of advanced weapons systems, including air-to-air missiles, air-to-ground missiles, and precision-guided bombs. Its internal weapons bays allow it to maintain stealth while carrying a significant payload.
The J-20 also features internal weapons bays and can carry a range of air-to-air and air-to-ground munitions. However, the exact specifications and capabilities of its armament are less well-documented, leading to some uncertainty about its full combat potential.
Rafale as a superior substitute
Although India does not have a stealth fighter comparable to the American F-35 or the Chinese J-20, the French “bird” Rafale is in no way inferior to the Chinese fighter. The French Rafale fighter is often considered to have a serious chance against the Chinese J-20 due to its advanced avionics and electronic warfare capabilities. The Rafale is equipped with the Thales RBE2-AA active electronically scanned array [AESA] radar, which provides superior situational awareness and targeting precision. This radar system is known for its high reliability and ability to track multiple targets simultaneously, giving the Rafale a significant edge in air-to-air combat scenarios.Another critical factor is the Rafale’s agility and maneuverability. The aircraft is designed with a delta wing and canard configuration, which allows for excellent aerodynamic performance. This design enables the Rafale to perform high-G maneuvers and maintain control in dogfight situations, potentially outmaneuvering the J-20, which is a larger and heavier aircraft.
The Rafale also benefits from its versatility and multirole capabilities. It can perform a wide range of missions, from air superiority to ground attack, with a variety of weapon systems. This flexibility allows Rafale pilots to adapt to different combat situations quickly, making it a formidable opponent in various scenarios.
Stealth features
Furthermore, the Rafale’s Spectra electronic warfare system is one of the most advanced in the world. It provides comprehensive self-protection by detecting, identifying, and countering threats through jamming, decoys, and other countermeasures. This system enhances the Rafale’s survivability against the J-20’s radar and missile systems.In terms of stealth, while the J-20 is designed with stealth features to reduce its radar cross-section, the Rafale employs a combination of stealth technologies and tactics to minimize its detectability. Although it may not be as stealthy as the J-20, the Rafale’s advanced electronic warfare capabilities can help mitigate this disadvantage by disrupting the J-20’s targeting systems.
Lastly, pilot training and experience play a crucial role in determining the outcome of any aerial engagement. French Rafale pilots undergo rigorous training and have extensive experience in various combat environments. This high level of training and operational experience can provide a significant advantage over J-20 pilots, who may not have the same level of combat exposure.
I hope that the Indians won't show everything to the Americans, that they'll only use the training signals.
Su-30MKI's radar was used only in Training Mode in previous Red Flags where IAF participated. The same would probably be the SOP for Rafale as well.
Yeah its a standard protocol to use training mode setting for radar, even Sukhoi make a customary reminder in their email.
How can Rafael train against a stealth aircraft (F35) (where the intent is to defeat the stealth) by switching on training mode Radar?
F35's strength is stealth + situational awareness, not manuerability
The Rafale's RBE2 AESA training mode is better than the F-35's operational mode because at least it has no faults. As for stealth, the Rafale has electronic stealth with SPECTRA, the aim of which is to make the Rafale's echo disappear on enemy radar. Opponents don't even know that this mode has been used, so they can't measure it, which means that it can be used even in training.
