As I said that's wrong, even HAL is offering the advanced HAWK with BAE to export customers, with the production to be based in India. => it depends on production costs and market potential and not on winning a tender.
Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions
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As I said that's wrong, even HAL is offering the advanced HAWK with BAE to export customers, with the production to be based in India. => it depends on production costs and market potential and not on winning a tender.
Not 'even HAL'...HAL has had virtual monopoly in the military aviation industry since independence, plus they are a DPSU. They've had countless production lines in India for various aircraft like MiGs, Su-30s, Jaguars, AVROs, Dorniers, choppers etc. etc. No private company can compete with that as far as track record goes.
Talk about private companies like TATA & Mahindra. They've been active in this field for a much longer time than Reliance. Yet they have ZERO final assembly lines. And nearly 100% of their component production lines are the result of one offset contract or other.
Reliance aviation on the other hand has only been around for a couple years, and not only have they already become a Tier-1 supplier, but are also so far the only private company that has a clear roadmap for final-assembly of a foreign aircraft in India....all while the bigger entities in this field like TATA remain stuck as component producers and have nothing to show as far as bringing a complete assembly line to India goes.
The Dassault-Reliance combine deserve their due credit in this regard.
Only way either TATA or Mahindra can beat that is if they secure a contract to bring a fighter or C-295 line to India, but like I said, that depends on when and if they win a contract. The Falcon production line on the other hand is coming regardless, and more than likely, it will come sooner. That is the difference.
In 10 years, nobody is going to be able to compete with DRAL.
The only competitor will be whoever wins AMCA production deal.
The only competitor will be whoever wins AMCA production deal.
Lol they only started with the Rafale deal and only got this production as part of the offsets. Without it, they didn't had any work or facilites at all!
How is that better for India than what TATA has shown for years?
P.S. HAL was and is producing Eurocopter helis and Do 228 in India, with exports to other countries too.
Rafale wing production will come to India too as a step to the full production of Rafale in India. But Dassault wants to improve India skill first it's why it begins with Falcon to create the adapted eco system around DRAL.As suppose to the originally planned Rafale wing production?
Much better offsets than what TATA got. DRAL has a roadmap for final assembly of the first aircraft for who they started making components.
TATA remains stuck as a component producer.
Hmm....let's see. What is better for India?
A final assembly line?
Or a component production contract?
The question you need to ask is: Why hasn't Tata been able to bring a C-130J or S-92 production line to India? Or at least have a plan to do so in future? Why their production is entirely dependent on whether they get government orders or not? Where is the entrepreneurship?
If anyone is being utterly risk-averse, it is TATA, not DRAL. DRAL is the one who is being truly entrepreneuring - in the fact that they have a plan for Falcon production line in India, despite any version of Falcon not being used by IAF or IN in any role (VIP transport, Maritime Patrol etc.). THAT is real entrepreneurship - the willingness to take risks because you see a market potential.
TATA-Lockheed haven't really demonstrated anything to that effect. TATA just makes some components because Lockheed was obligated to offload offset contracts. Shifting the entire production line on the other hand, is an entirely different ball game.
Eurocopter didn't exist when HAL started making Lamas and Alouettes. And Eurocopter (now Airbus Helos) doesn't make them anymore.
Either way, no private company can compete with HAL. But that's not because of HAL's competence, but because they monopolized the industry.
Nope, since that's only possible with a larger MMRCA deal. So contrary to your earlier claim, it shows how bad the offsets of Dassault are now, as suppose to what even Reliance alone was planned to get if Dassault had not f...ed up the MMRCA.
It will be DRAL
Very improbable.
It will have to be Reliance alone, not Dassault+Reliance. So, no DRAL. ADA will expect the company to be 100% Indian owned.
I'd put my money on TATA.
First of all Rafale deal is the single biggest deal => therfore "larger" offset distribution. Has nothing to do with Reliance or TATA.
Secondly, Falcon business jet production is not better than being part of the global production line of C130J, S92 or black hawks, just think about the sheer numbers and you will understand the difference.
And last but not least, it doesn't help Indian defence industry at all to build Falcons, compared to the systems TATA got that's why TATA is also involved in the production of LCA, or Do 228 for Indian forces as well.
What does DRAL for India? Oh wait they didn't existed till 2017.
Which is what I already stated, they haven't committed themselves into R&D as they do in the howitzer or armoured vehicle field, or like Adani now does in the aviation field. But there is the problem for Reliance again, they haven't done anything!
Why are you distracting now? Aren't these aircrafts build in and sold from India? Isn't the Do 220 the first fixed winged aircraft to do the same too? Falcon only follows them.
Yeah, Mig was the paper tiger.
CAG did mess up the narrative on current deal and how terribly mismanaged MMRCA was. Scrapping it was the right call!
A guy with a strategic understanding won't bring up EF..EF again and again. Its never an option when you have a nuclear angle. CAG can scrutinise it all they want the fact wont change. GoI/IAF will push them out even if it means scraping the deal and going IGA.Said that long ago, sadly we don't know how much the ISE costs for EF would had been.
As I said before, UPA and NDA should not had waited so long for Dassault to comply to RFP rules, but now we even know, that they had to be rejected even before. But even more shocking is, that the NDA govt got the IM report by March 2015 with all the details of Dassaults failures and still went with a single vendor gift for them!
Everyone is looking for a defence scam that's the reason rules and procedures are so rigid. No one trusts one another. It takes so long the clear different hurdles. Meanwhile, people create non-existing scams thinking everyone else is morally corrupt except them!. (You know what modi did in paris ?!).
At the same time, they bitch about how delayed defence procurements are (IST ha ha).
So you want to blame DRAL for that?
There is no obligation either from a strategic or commercial perspective that the offset has to concern a military product. What there is an obligation to do however, is to Make In India. DRAL has a roadmap to make an entire plane in India. TATA, despite being active for a much, much longer time, isn't really making anything other than bits and pieces.
Falcon 2000 is only the first step. And having a final assembly line has strategic value, and puts India on the global commercial aircraft manufacturing map like nothing else. When one company does it, others will follow. Its easy for contractors to shift component production out of India. Shifting an entire production line is not.
I get your problem - you can't admit that DRAL is the first to bring a final assembly line to India among private companies, so you want to include HAL.
You don't need to admit anything. I'm well aware of your biases.
Unfortunately for you, your bias won't change the facts that DRAL is the only private company in India currently that has a plan for final assembly of an aircraft. TATA can keep screwing around with their component production. It's a pretty well known fact by now that the Lockheed-Tata JV is utterly stagnating.
And since we didn't had such a requirement in the MMRCA (EF compliant to IAF requirements, ACM on record that IAF requires any suitable MMRCA, not necessarily Rafale), that remained a pointless justification for the Rafale deal.
No nation can ask for it in a tender !. What's next you expect tender for Arihant reactor?
And making EF nuclear capable is not an impossible proposition but improbable with the 'peace' loving countries involved. Even the CAG report mentions it. Its part of their recommendations. Taking strategic consideration is part of their value based instend of L1.
Nope, I explained why they have nothing to do with the amount or content of the offsets.
True, but if we get defence related offsets, that's logically more beneficiary for the improvement of our industry, to gain experience and knowhow with advanced materials, or manufacturing parts.
As explained before, it has to do with production cost and market potential, just as the Do 228 will be produced and sold for the Indian and Asian market, Falcon is aimed at a similar area. That doesn't make other companies shift their production lines, if there is no export marke for their products, or at least cost benefits in production. You are hyping a loss for India, since it would had been much better for us, if Reliance would have got real production parts of the Rafale, because that is what we need to improve the are vision industry. High tech defence manufacturing skills and know how.
I get your problem - you can't admit that DRAL is the first to bring a final assembly line to India among private companies, so you want to include HAL.
Lol you changed the topic, when I gave you examples for final assembly in India, that you couldn't refute. So who is not admitting to the facts here?
All such know-how with regard to metallurgy, production processes etc. is more often than not dual-use.
The 'industry' doesn't care if the product is military or commercial. Industry only cares how much of the know-how is coming in, and how important the local manufacturing scene becomes at the global stage.
Therein lies the fallacy of TATA's "entrepreneurship". TATA is chasing an assured market. Unless there is an assured order from IAF/IN, they refuse to get a production line to India - of any aircraft.
DRAL's Falcon on the other hand, is not chasing an assured order from anyone - its chasing a POTENTIAL market.
Between the two, DRAL is the bigger entrepreneur.
Lol you changed the topic, when I gave you examples for final assembly in India, that you couldn't refute. So who is not admitting to the facts here?
Simple - you. I never said or implied DRAL was the first to have an assembly line in India. Even a 2 year old knows that it was HAL - did in the 60s and 70s.
The implication was always that DRAL is the first private company to do so.
But of course, it requires someone who's mental age is more than 2 to realize that.
Trappier explained the plan, and I already give a translation of it on several post begining here:
MMRCA 2.0 - Update and discussion
The plan is much more ambitius that just Falcon production.
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