Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Even now the Govt should Create A
JV Between Dassault and HAL for the 114 + 57 Naval aircraft , under the Strategic Partner policy
 
Sancho said:
Yes, we can compare the flyaway unit cost and if we had more info's, we could also compare the system costs (including training, spares and logistics). All you need is to take the cost at equal basis and you can compare it.
Weapon deals are not combined with the fighter deal, but separate contract, in this case with MBDA, or Rafael for Spice, just as in the case of the Mirage upgrade.
But since the government didn't even wanted to give out the flyaway cost, which was accidentally made public, we know, that it was higher than the Congress claim. So what we need to know, is if the Congress figure is correct, but the government does not want to disclose that, make your own conclusions why.

The main problem however are not Congress claims on costs or HAL, but that the IAF requirement was cut down, without any logical statement on why and by whom. Just was why the prime requirement of licence production in India was cut too?
For both the government only provides contradictions, but no proper explanation and till date, there is not a single proof for an IAF requirement for less than the 126.
Click to expand...

We will see the MMRCA 2.0 decision next year

Secondly the Cost increase is due to Technology Transfer to DRDO for Kaveri and
Other projects
 
Sancho said:
Yes, we can compare the flyaway unit cost and if we had more info's, we could also compare the system costs (including training, spares and logistics). All you need is to take the cost at equal basis and you can compare it.
Click to expand...
The fly away cost of bare aircraft as per MMRCA configuration is well know and the deal for 36 aircraft is also known. Compare the two and you will find that the deal for 36 aircraft is cheaper. Just remember congress has never quoted the figures in USD or Euro but in INR only. Do you know why? What was the rupee value against these currencies in 2011 when the commercial bids were received and what is it now? What was the escalation rate and as on May 2014 the deal had not beed signed. Let us imagine that the deal was signed in Apr 2014 with first deliveries to start in 2017. What would have been the price of Rafale aircraft with an escalation of 3.75% on the date of delivery of first aircraft?
This is how even the best educated people end up being fooled.
 
vstol Jockey said:
The fly away cost of bare aircraft as per MMRCA configuration is well know and the deal for 36 aircraft is also known. Compare the two and you will find that the deal for 36 aircraft is cheaper.
Click to expand...

If that would be the case, we wouldn't talk about of for a year now.
Congress claims 526 crores, NDA paid 670 crores, but without confirmation of the earlier, we have no comparison.
The only statement for the total MMRCA cost came from DM Parrikar, with 90.000 crores.

vstol Jockey said:
Just remember congress has never quoted the figures in USD or Euro but in INR only.
Click to expand...

Just as the current government, see above.
 
Sancho said:
If that would be the case, we wouldn't talk about of for a year now.
Congress claims 526 crores, NDA paid 670 crores, but without confirmation of the earlier, we have no comparison.
The only statement for the total MMRCA cost came from DM Parrikar, with 90.000 crores.
Just as the current government, see above.
Click to expand...
Pappu quoted a figure based on USD12b for 126 aircraft. you can calculate what is the unit fly away cost for each fighter for 126 from this. This was the cost when commercial bids were opened. And Rupee was about 50 to a dollar. $12b for 126 means unit fly away price of $105/ac and rupee at 50 means 525 cores/ac. Now we have from news reports that each fighter fly away cost is Euro 91-94M and Rupee when the deal was signed was at 66 to a dollar and 75 to a Euro. Now calculate the price in INR. It comes to 682 crores for single seater. Within the UPA time itself the deal for bare aircraft had crossed USD30B for 126 aircraft. I am quoting wiki which I myself do not trust much but the links for info quoted in that give a better picture.
Rafale deal controversy - Wikipedia

so you see that Puppu is telling lies and all those who believe in him are fools.1544798393941.png
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Picdelamirand-oil
Sancho said:
Read the transcript of the judgement and don't get into conclusions based on media jumping the gun. They didn't investigated a single issue, only read the documents/info's the government provided and then followed their arguments.
Click to expand...

To my line "The whole point the SC was looking was any prima facie to start an investigation and thats what they did." your reply is "They didn't investigated a single issue":sick:

Courts job is not to investigate anything! But to check if there is any wrongdoing in prima facie and direct the investigation agency to start looking into it. (Is that different where you come from ? :cautious:)

Did you read the report? because there is some important part just for you.

"We find no reason for anyintervention on the sensitive issue of purchase of 36 defence aircrafts. Perception of individuals cannot be the basis of a fishing and roving enquiry bythis Court, especially in such matter"
Click to expand...
"We do not find any substantial material on record to show that this is a case of commercial favouritism to any party by the Government, as the option to choose the IOP does not rest with the Indian Government"
Click to expand...
"It is no doubt true that the company has come into being in the recent past, but the press release suggests that there was possibly an arrangement between the parent Reliance company and Dassault starting from the year 2012"
Click to expand...
"The official respondents have claimed that there are certain better terms in IGA qua the maintenance and weapon package. It is certainly not the job of this Court to carry out a comparison of the pricing details in matters like the present,"
Click to expand...

Here on I can just quote SC not Dassault or PIB :p
 
  • Agree
  • Like
Reactions: Parthu, Picdelamirand-oil and vstol Jockey
The whole "controversy" is a desperate attempt by LockMart to block the sale by bribing corrupt Congress politicians.

The same corrupt politicians that aren't in any way concerned about price gouging when it's American aircraft that are concerned, like the P-8I. Surprise, surprise.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Picdelamirand-oil
Ashwin said:
Courts job is not to investigate anything! But to check if there is any wrongdoing in prima facie and direct the investigation agency to start looking into it
Click to expand...

How do you check if something is wrong? By investigating the facts! You can call it checking or reviewing, don't care, what matters is, they needed to look into the facts of the matter and they didn't!
You can't say the pricing was right, if you haven't looked into it, beyond the limited infos the government provided.
You can't say there was no cronyism, when you haven't looked into the issue issue either.

It's as simple as that and as it turns out, SC seems to have made itself even more to a joke than I thought initially.

Ashwin said:
Did you read the report? because there is some important part just for you

Here on I can just quote SC not Dassault or PIB :p
Click to expand...

Of course I did, that's why I told you to do it too and not just take initial media speculations for granted. But the parts you quoted are nothing new, because that what we know all along. We know what the DPP says, we know that the government referred to it in their documents, we now know, that SC simply took those documents as proof without doing any proper fact search.

But what we needed to know was, what happend during the talks in Paris! That's what was complained about in the petition, that's where the cronyism allegedly happend and that's where the SC had to look into, if they were serious about checking wrongdoing.
But they didn't, although they even said, that President Hollands statements would be contrary to the DPP rules!!! So if they realiased that, how can they not check it for wrongdoing (to use your wording)??? They dismissed it only by saying, that interviews can't be the base of reviews by the court.
 
vstol Jockey said:
Pappu quoted a figure based on USD12b for 126 aircraft. you can calculate what is the unit fly away cost for each fighter for 126 from this. This was the cost when commercial bids were opened. And Rupee was about 50 to a dollar. $12b for 126 means unit fly away price of $105/ac and rupee at 50 means 525 cores/ac. Now we have from news reports that each fighter fly away cost is Euro 91-94M and Rupee when the deal was signed was at 66 to a dollar and 75 to a Euro. Now calculate the price in INR. It comes to 682 crores for single seater. Within the UPA time itself the deal for bare aircraft had crossed USD30B for 126 aircraft. I am quoting wiki which I myself do not trust much but the links for info quoted in that give a better picture.
Rafale deal controversy - Wikipedia

so you see that Puppu is telling lies and all those who believe in him are fools.View attachment 3789
Click to expand...

Lol so he is telling lies and you quoted wiki and mix up some figures so that must be a fact now?

All that matters are official info's and as long as the government doesn't provide them, there is no way to say, which claim was correct.
 
Sancho said:
What a waste of time, they created the whole circus, just to state at the end, that they didn't looked into pricing, process offsets/cronyism, because they shouldn't interfere in defence matters. Lol.
But the remark on the CAG report was interesting if true.
Click to expand...

=>

Sancho said:
and as it turns out, SC seems to have made itself even more to a joke than I thought initially.
Click to expand...

=>




Manu Pubby on Twitter



So they didn't just made a verdict without proper review of the facts, but also seems to have based their justifications and conclusions on false infos.
 
Last edited:
On Rafale Verdict, Manohar Parrikar Tweets "Satyamev Jayate"

Rafale Verdict: A bench headed by Chief Justice Ranjan Gogoi said there was no occasion to doubt the decision-making process in the multi-billion dollar Rafale deal.

PANAJI:
Goa Chief Minister Manohar Parrikar Friday welcomed the Supreme Court's clean chit to the Narendra Modi government in procurement of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France.

"Satyamev Jayate (truth alone triumphs)," tweeted Mr Parrikar who was defence minister when the Indian and French governments signed an agreement to purchase the planes from Dassault.

lciarivg_manohar-parrikar_625x300_15_October_18.jpg


Earlier Friday, the court also dismissed all petitions seeking a direction to the CBI to register a complaint for alleged irregularities in the Rafale deal.

A bench headed by Chief Justice Ranjan Gogoi said there was no occasion to doubt the decision-making process in the multi-billion dollar deal.

On the issue of offset partner, the bench, also comprising Justices SK Kaul and KM Joseph, said there was no substantial evidence of commercial favouritism to any private entity.

The top court said there has been a necessity for fighter aircraft and the country cannot remain without jets.

On Rafale Verdict, Manohar Parrikar Tweets "Satyamev Jayate"
 





@Ashwin, do you see now why SC has made itself and the verdict to a joke? They didn't verify anything and took the info's the government gave them, including mistakes.😅
 
Was pretty interesting to follow the whole issue on news and social media yesterday. First everyone jumped the gun and claimed clean chit for Rafale and the government. Then it got clear that the SC did not really looked into the matters, which is why the verdict was rushed so fast and at the end of the day, there was a U turn and everyone was jumping on SC for the several factual mistakes in the verdict.

What's really disappointing here, is that they actually could helped the to clear things up, by being transparent and providing real answers to the public. Now the hope is on CAG.
 
Sancho said:
How do you check if something is wrong? By investigating the facts! You can call it checking or reviewing, don't care, what matters is, they needed to look into the facts of the matter and they didn't!
You can't say the pricing was right, if you haven't looked into it, beyond the limited infos the government provided.
You can't say there was no cronyism, when you haven't looked into the issue issue either.

It's as simple as that and as it turns out, SC seems to have made itself even more to a joke than I thought initially.
Click to expand...
Again different shades of ignorance! . SC do not investigate cases its job of different agencies. They looked into any reason to order one which there is none. Conjecture and media hype is not enough. It needs hard evidence like money trail to prove things.

Look at the AW101 Scam case, There were enough pointers to start an investigation but not enough factual evidence to prove and convict. The political rivalry will keep it alive and burning just to point fingers.

Quoting SC: "Perception of individuals cannot be the basis of a fishing and roving enquiry bythis Court, especially in such matter"

Sancho said:
@Ashwin, do you see now why SC has made itself and the verdict to a joke? They didn't verify anything and took the info's the government gave them, including mistakes.😅
Click to expand...

You should be disappointed with your lack of knowledge on how a judicial system works and not the SC.

Sancho said:
But what we needed to know was, what happend during the talks in Paris!
Click to expand...

Sancho said:
=>



=>



So they didn't just made a verdict without proper review of the facts, but also seems to have based their justifications and conclusions on false infos.
Click to expand...

Sancho said:
Was pretty interesting to follow the whole issue on news and social media yesterday. First everyone jumped the gun and claimed clean chit for Rafale and the government. Then it got clear that the SC did not really looked into the matters, which is why the verdict was rushed so fast and at the end of the day, there was a U turn and everyone was jumping on SC for the several factual mistakes in the verdict.

What's really disappointing here, is that they actually could helped the to clear things up, by being transparent and providing real answers to the public. Now the hope is on CAG.
Click to expand...

Again making a narrative of fiction and conjecture by using some grammatical errors. Thereby trying to discredit the entire judgment. These leftists don't care about the damage of these kinds of pseudo scams makes to the security of the nation. But people like you are their cannon fodders who just want to oppose thing based on some kind of skepticism which you yourself can't really explain.



 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Picdelamirand-oil
Ashwin said:
They looked into any reason
Click to expand...

And that's exactly what they didn't as they admitted themselves! They didn't looked into the price, since they felt it was not their job. They didn't looked into the cronyism charge, because it was an only an interview.
They didn't looked into why or how the numbers were cut, because they felt that it was not up to them to decide...
...so at the end of the day, they didn't looked into a single issue that was raised, only on the basis of the documents the government provided and ended up following the government line.

Ashwin said:
You should be disappointed with your lack of knowledge on how a judicial system works and not the SC.
Click to expand...

😅 So that's all you have to say on the mess they created? Blame the messenger? Lol

Did you realise, that they also claimed 20 squads of 5th gen fighter were inducted by the enemies? They messed that up also, since the documents provided by the government stated 20 squads of 4th and 5th gen fighters.
They made a judgement based on one sided "facts" and got even these pre-written justifications wrong.
 
Sancho said:
And that's exactly what they didn't as they admitted themselves! They didn't looked into the price, since they felt it was not their job. They didn't looked into the cronyism charge, because it was an only an interview.
They didn't looked into why or how the numbers were cut, because they felt that it was not up to them to decide...
...so at the end of the day, they didn't looked into a single issue that was raised, only on the basis of the documents the government provided and ended up following the government line.
Click to expand...
  • PAC and CAG are looking at the price. SC felt its redundant and a waste of time. And yes it is not their job. (Which is common sense)
  • Offset and partner selection were according to the procedure. Categorically cleared it.
  • Some misinterpreted statement is nothing. Again lack of hard evidence (You should really read into how judicial system works)
  • Numbers are not up to them to decide !. IAF officers gave statement on it.
  • All issues were checked into. (Maybe not your conspiracy though, try filing a PIL)
Sancho said:
😅 So that's all you have to say on the mess they created? Blame the messenger? Lol
Click to expand...
When the messenger is too ignorant how institution in a country works you have to.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GuardianRED and Shekhar Singh
Rafale deal: Dassault reaffirms intention to produce jets

“Dassault Aviation will ensure successful production in the country, through the Dassault Reliance joint venture in Nagpur, as well as through a full-fledged supply chain network involving 30 (other) companies, with which Dassault Aviation has signed contracts,” it said, adding that the French company is in dialogue with an additional 60 companies to join its supply chain network.
Click to expand...
[....]
Adding the deal “is absolutely clean in accordance with Indian laws and regulations,” Eric Trappier, Chairman and CEO, Dassault Aviation said in the statement that the first Falcon part is currently under delivery out of its facility in Nagpur.
Click to expand...

Rafale deal: Dassault reaffirms intention to produce jets
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sancho, randomradio and R!cK
Reliance will be out of Rafale deal if Cong comes to power in 2019: Moily
'We believe in Rafale jet...it is good...it cannot be cancelled...it is our own baby, we only had finalised it with the HAL,' he said

Senior Congress leader MVeerappa Moily Friday said if his party was voted to power in the next Lok Sabha polls, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would be accommodated as an offset partner and Anil Ambani's Reliance Defenceeased out of the Rafale deal.

Moily, who ruled out scrapping the Rafale deal if his party was voted to power, told reporters, "When our government comes, we will go back to the HAL as an offset partner...definitely we are committed to it".

"We believe in Rafale jet...it is good...it cannot be cancelled...it is our ownbaby, we only had finalised it with the HAL," he said.

Addressing a press conference here on his party's stand on thedefence deal, the former Union minister said his party was only opposed to "unlawful gains" by somebody under the guise of the defence deal and not the fighter jet.

Asked if Reliance would be out of the ambit of the Rafale framework as an offset partner, he shot back, "how that company can be in..?"

To a question on approaching the Supreme Court since the Congresshas alleged that the court was fed "false information" by the government, Moily said constituting a Joint Parliamentary Committee(JPC) was their demand.

"The Congress is very clear that only a Joint Parliamentary Committeewill be competent to go into the Rafale deal...we are not going to Supreme Court...we did not petition the court in the past too," he said, adding only Parliament would be the appropriate forum for the scrutiny.

Recalling the Congress-led governments constituting and facing JPCs in the past, Moily said the BJPgovernment wanted to hide the truth.

"They know that they have everything to hide and nothing to disclose," he alleged.

On Prime Minister Narendra Modi accusing the Congress of threatening every institution in India, Moily said it was a "big joke".

It is only the BJP-led government that has destroyed the institutions, be it the CBI or the planning commission, he said.

On the BJP's demand for a debate in Parliament which they said was more powerful than a JPC probe, the Congress leader said the saffron party did not know the basic features of parliamentary procedures.

"A JPC can investigate the matter. The discussions had already been done on the deal. What more discussion would they like?" he said.

Asked about his accusation against Indian Air Forcechief B S Dhanoa, Moily said, "It is not correct to say that I called him a liar...one of the television channels took it out of context".

The Congress leader said he only questioned Dhanoa quipping "fine" following theSupreme Court judgment on the Rafale deal.

"I asked him what is fine...I think in a matter like this, the armed forces or the chiefs anyone, they should not unnecessarily get into political controversies," Moily said.

About the Supreme Court's ruling on the deal, he quoted extensively from it and said it was not a "clean chit to the BJPgovernment".

Both Modi and theGovernment of India would "face the music" since the court has been "misled", he alleged.

"If BJP is a real democratic party, it should take up the challenge, constitute JPC and face it. They have no faith in Parliament," he said.

The prime minister did not have time to attend the sitting though he was available in his chamber, the Congress leader added.
https://www.business-standard.com/a...es-to-power-in-2019-moily-118122100851_1.html
 
  • Like
Reactions: LoneWolfSandeep and Sancho
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom