S-400 'Triumf' News & Discussion

Both. Basically your air defence is screwed by either or both, making it a dumb purchase.
Then Chinese air-defences are also equally screwed. Turkey has S-400, India has S-400. Both will be reverse engineering and India is also likely to get Russian codes for disabling S-400. If either of them gets it, it will find its way to US.

And historically, India has been operating S-300s, Su-30MKI and other platforms. So did a lot of other countries which could have sold its secrets to USA and YET China kept on buying Russian weapons till very recently.

Something here does not add up. I think all of this 'Secret Backdoors' or 'Vulnerabilities' are simply impossible. Becuase otherwise, whole import market of weapons will not exist.
 
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Because China actually does reverse engineer and then copy everything and they're too big for Russia to get annoyed at them for doing it - see HQ-9. They're probably also secretly doing research into beating Russian air defences. Turkey is getting it so that NATO can analyse it.
And what makes you think countries like India and Turkey do not reverse engineer.
If China can find out some secret vulnerabilities, so can India.
 
S400 and Rafale deals, as Su30MKI in its time, are maybe game changers, but mainly a political gesture in direction of China and Pak.
 
And what makes you think countries like India and Turkey do not reverse engineer.
If China can find out some secret vulnerabilities, so can India.
China is only buying it to find out what you have. They are streets ahead of you on radar and EW. They also got 6 systems for less than you paid for 5 systems but somehow you think you are Russia's favourite.
 
Then Chinese air-defences are also equally screwed. Turkey has S-400, India has S-400. Both will be reverse engineering and India is also likely to get Russian codes for disabling S-400. If either of them gets it, it will find its way to US.

And historically, India has been operating S-300s, Su-30MKI and other platforms. So did a lot of other countries which could have sold its secrets to USA and YET China kept on buying Russian weapons till very recently.

Something here does not add up. I think all of this 'Secret Backdoors' or 'Vulnerabilities' are simply impossible. Becuase otherwise, whole import market of weapons will not exist.
As stated, China only buys them to find out what you have and Russia sells them for less to China.

Until they copied all the tech and modified it.

The import weapons market will still exist but only dummies buy from enemies or friends of their enemies.
 
As stated, China only buys them to find out what you have and Russia sells them for less to China.

Until they copied all the tech and modified it.

The import weapons market will still exist but only dummies buy from enemies or friends of their enemies.

Import weapons market

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Where you can see that Europe is as strong as Russia
 
Why don't you post a rejoinder here? For the benefit of this blog.

His arguments are actually too stupid to refute, but I'll do it anyway. His arguments can be surmised into 4 points.

One: China now has stealth aircraft, which makes them immune to the radar-reliant S-400.
Two: Western aircraft like Rafale, M-2000 etc will be picked up as enemies by the S-400. Meaning the IFF, friend or foe systems, will not be compatible.
Three: The Russians will not provide the source codes necessary to integrate the S-400 into our grid.
Four: S-400 sucks, it won't work as advertised. He goes on to literally make up reasons for it.

Rebuttals:
One: Radar vs stealth is not black and white. And as our air chief has already pointed out, the Chinese stealth is not so advanced that it creates asymmetric capabilities. Although at lower ranges than conventional aircraft, the S-400 can still shoot down the J-20 at a long enough range. However the main advantage of the S-400 is in its ability to target HVAs like AWACS, recce, EW, tankers etc at extremely long ranges, which can significantly decrease the potency of the J-20. The J-20 itself will have to be killed by fighter jets of our own.

Two and Three: In both cases, we do not need anything exceedingly special from foreign countries. We will use our own IFF, comm and datalinks. As such there will be no problems in integrating the S-400 into our IACCS. So there is no need to operate the S-400 as a standalone system. In fact, Turkey planned to integrate the S-400 with their NATO systems. As for the F-35, the Israelis have specifically modified their version to be able to network with their indigenous assets. So if we are interested in buying the F-35 some day, we can opt for the Israeli modifications ourselves. There's nothing in American inventory that we cannot integrate with the S-400.

Four: He's given ridiculous reasons, like something about heavily networked radars, terminal accuracy etc, all *censored*-pulled.

There's one important point he's made about the PAF F-16s capable of being equipped with the capability to defeat the S-400 since the Americans have extensive experience with the S-400 in Syria. Yep, he's entirely talking out of his *censored*. Nobody gives up their threat libraries to anybody else, especially Pakistan. It's priceless information. And it's not like Russia is using the actual capabilities of the S-400 in Syria or anywhere else anyway. Peacetime operations use completely different frequencies compared to wartime. So even if by some magic, PAF gets their hands on some signals to update their threat library, either through China or Turkey, it won't affect India since we are capable enough to make our own signals in due course of time.

Overall, it's an extremely low quality article.
 
China is only buying it to find out what you have. They are streets ahead of you on radar and EW. They also got 6 systems for less than you paid for 5 systems but somehow you think you are Russia's favourite.

I remember reading somewhere that the S-400's India is getting will have elements of the yet-to-be-fielded S-500. This may, at least partially, explain the difference in price.
 
I remember reading somewhere that the S-400's India is getting will have elements of the yet-to-be-fielded S-500. This may, at least partially, explain the difference in price.

China bought 2 regiments of the S-400 with 3 battalions each, 6 in total. India bought 5 regiments with either 2 or 3 battalions each, we don't know yet. Likely 2 each for a total of 10 battalions. It's possible we may have bought 1 or 2 regiments with 3 battalions instead.

Originally, India's contract was expected to be above $6B, which would indicate 12 battalions in total, which we haggled our way down to $5.4B.

Also, India's deal comes with license production of 6000 missiles, while China's deal is a direct purchase.

India's S-400 may or may not have the 2 new missiles planned for the S-500, we don't know that and there's no point speculating, but our deal is definitely cheaper and better than what China got.

The S-500 is still in development, but it's possible to get the two new missiles in case we order a second batch of 5 regiments at a later date, if not the S-500 itself.
 
Either way, you're getting *censored* raped.

I have no clue what you're on about. Your reasoning really doesn't hold up at all; and I anyhow don't understand your sudden concern for India's security or how we fair in a business deal.
 
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We would be paying for this in Indian rupees I understand,
Also the price of Deal is different as per different sources.
For example the MMRCA was anywhere between 10 billion to 20 billion by some sources

China bought 2 regiments of the S-400 with 3 battalions each, 6 in total. India bought 5 regiments with either 2 or 3 battalions each, we don't know yet. Likely 2 each for a total of 10 battalions. It's possible we may have bought 1 or 2 regiments with 3 battalions instead.

Originally, India's contract was expected to be above $6B, which would indicate 12 battalions in total, which we haggled our way down to $5.4B.

Also, India's deal comes with license production of 6000 missiles, while China's deal is a direct purchase.

India's S-400 may or may not have the 2 new missiles planned for the S-500, we don't know that and there's no point speculating, but our deal is definitely cheaper and better than what China got.

The S-500 is still in development, but it's possible to get the two new missiles in case we order a second batch of 5 regiments at a later date, if not the S-500 itself.