The MKI's radar will be a new one that will follow the development of the PAK FA's N036. This was confirmed even by the NIIP boss years ago.
Sukhoi Su-30MKI
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
The MKI's radar will be a new one that will follow the development of the PAK FA's N036. This was confirmed even by the NIIP boss years ago.
In Rafale season, HAL’s 3-year delay in Sukhoi rollout raises concerns; company says delivery on schedule
THE CONTROVERSY over the 36-jet Rafale deal has brought Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) under the spotlight with “serious concerns” being raised in official quarters over the three-year delay in the public sector giant’s production of Russian-origin Sukhoi Su-30 MKI aircraft for the IAF.
Official sources told The Indian Express that HAL was scheduled to deliver the last of a set of 140 Russian-origin fighters by March 2017, which has now been pushed to March 2020.
“We had asked the IAF to pay an additional Rs 2,000 crore to HAL for setting up additional facilities to compress the delivery schedule (of March 2017) and deliver the last of the contracted 140 aircraft by March 2015. But there were further delays in production,” sources said.
HAL missed out on the Rafale deal signed in 2016 after the manufacturer, France’s Dassault Aviation, opted for other Indian companies under the offset clause for local tie-ups, with a bulk of the work awarded to Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence. Opposition parties have alleged that the government has acted in a manner that harmed the interests of HAL, and benefitted Ambani.
In the case of Sukhoi Su-30 MKI, 50 fighter jets were supplied in “flyaway condition” by Russia as part of the direct contract with India, and HAL was contracted to deliver 222 more — under licensed production — in six different contracts. The first four contracts were for a total of 140 aircraft, while two additional contracts were for another 40 and 42 aircraft, respectively.
Of the contracts totalling 140 aircraft, HAL is yet to produce 33, sources said. But the public sector company has directly procured some aircraft from Russia and delivered them to the IAF to bridge the gap. These deliveries were from the two additional contracts, thereby ensuring that 188 of the 222 aircraft have been given to the IAF, sources said. For the current production year, sources said, 12 aircraft are scheduled but only one has been produced so far.
“If these Russian aircraft were not procured by HAL, the delay in delivery would be five years, not just three years. The full set of 140 aircraft were to completely delivered by 2014-15 but are still awaited,” sources said.
When contacted, Gopal Sutar, Chief of Media Communications of HAL, said that “there is no delay in the production and delivery schedules”. “We have so far given 199 aircraft, which form the backbone of our precious customer, the Indian Air Force,” Sutar said.
“HAL has successfully absorbed the entire manufacturing technology in four phases and the Su 30 MkI is produced from the raw material stage by handholding our private partners. HAL is perhaps the only aerospace company in the world where the raw material enters the gates of the company and the final product flies away,” Sutar said.
According to sources, the IAF has also given “production concessions” to HAL to ensure that it can accept the aircraft made by the public-sector manufacturer, ranging from use of short-life components to delay in supply of role equipment.
Asked why these concessions were given to HAL, a senior IAF official said, “If these concessions were not accorded, the delays would have been even more, which would have seriously affected the operational capability of IAF.”
Of the authorised 42 squadrons of fighter aircraft, IAF currently has only 31, a number that is expected to dip further as older aircraft, such as the MIGs, are phased out.
Sources also said that they “have seen the difference in the quality of the production standard between HAL-produced aircraft and the original Russian-supplied aircraft.” The issues pointed out by the IAF to HAL vary from time to time, indicating a lack of proper quality control and lack of awareness in handling such issues at HAL, sources said.
“The question of quality compromise does not arise in any of the HAL products. This is raised time and again just to score points. It seems that a very few understand how quality issues are taken care of in aerospace manufacturing,” Sutar said.
“Generally, the quality is built into the product in the aerospace industry, and this includes our Su 30 MKI because of the nature of the production process. Besides, HAL has consistently stood guarantee for the quality of its products with the monitoring level of quality assurance by the Government-owned Quality Assurance’s authorities as a customer’s representative. So why raise the quality issue?” Sutar said.
In 2016, a new government-to-government deal on Rafale led to the cancellation of the proposal of buying 126 fighter jets under a competitive tender process by the previous UPA government. Under that proposal, 108 Rafale fighter jets were to be made by HAL in India. But the public sector firm was unable to come to an agreement with Dassault over various issues, and the proposal was withdrawn by the government in June 2015.
THE SUKHOI DEAL
THE CONTROVERSY over the 36-jet Rafale deal has brought Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) under the spotlight with “serious concerns” being raised in official quarters over the three-year delay in the public sector giant’s production of Russian-origin Sukhoi Su-30 MKI aircraft for the IAF.
Official sources told The Indian Express that HAL was scheduled to deliver the last of a set of 140 Russian-origin fighters by March 2017, which has now been pushed to March 2020.
“We had asked the IAF to pay an additional Rs 2,000 crore to HAL for setting up additional facilities to compress the delivery schedule (of March 2017) and deliver the last of the contracted 140 aircraft by March 2015. But there were further delays in production,” sources said.
HAL missed out on the Rafale deal signed in 2016 after the manufacturer, France’s Dassault Aviation, opted for other Indian companies under the offset clause for local tie-ups, with a bulk of the work awarded to Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence. Opposition parties have alleged that the government has acted in a manner that harmed the interests of HAL, and benefitted Ambani.
In the case of Sukhoi Su-30 MKI, 50 fighter jets were supplied in “flyaway condition” by Russia as part of the direct contract with India, and HAL was contracted to deliver 222 more — under licensed production — in six different contracts. The first four contracts were for a total of 140 aircraft, while two additional contracts were for another 40 and 42 aircraft, respectively.
Of the contracts totalling 140 aircraft, HAL is yet to produce 33, sources said. But the public sector company has directly procured some aircraft from Russia and delivered them to the IAF to bridge the gap. These deliveries were from the two additional contracts, thereby ensuring that 188 of the 222 aircraft have been given to the IAF, sources said. For the current production year, sources said, 12 aircraft are scheduled but only one has been produced so far.
“If these Russian aircraft were not procured by HAL, the delay in delivery would be five years, not just three years. The full set of 140 aircraft were to completely delivered by 2014-15 but are still awaited,” sources said.
When contacted, Gopal Sutar, Chief of Media Communications of HAL, said that “there is no delay in the production and delivery schedules”. “We have so far given 199 aircraft, which form the backbone of our precious customer, the Indian Air Force,” Sutar said.
“HAL has successfully absorbed the entire manufacturing technology in four phases and the Su 30 MkI is produced from the raw material stage by handholding our private partners. HAL is perhaps the only aerospace company in the world where the raw material enters the gates of the company and the final product flies away,” Sutar said.
According to sources, the IAF has also given “production concessions” to HAL to ensure that it can accept the aircraft made by the public-sector manufacturer, ranging from use of short-life components to delay in supply of role equipment.
Asked why these concessions were given to HAL, a senior IAF official said, “If these concessions were not accorded, the delays would have been even more, which would have seriously affected the operational capability of IAF.”
Of the authorised 42 squadrons of fighter aircraft, IAF currently has only 31, a number that is expected to dip further as older aircraft, such as the MIGs, are phased out.
Sources also said that they “have seen the difference in the quality of the production standard between HAL-produced aircraft and the original Russian-supplied aircraft.” The issues pointed out by the IAF to HAL vary from time to time, indicating a lack of proper quality control and lack of awareness in handling such issues at HAL, sources said.
“The question of quality compromise does not arise in any of the HAL products. This is raised time and again just to score points. It seems that a very few understand how quality issues are taken care of in aerospace manufacturing,” Sutar said.
“Generally, the quality is built into the product in the aerospace industry, and this includes our Su 30 MKI because of the nature of the production process. Besides, HAL has consistently stood guarantee for the quality of its products with the monitoring level of quality assurance by the Government-owned Quality Assurance’s authorities as a customer’s representative. So why raise the quality issue?” Sutar said.
In 2016, a new government-to-government deal on Rafale led to the cancellation of the proposal of buying 126 fighter jets under a competitive tender process by the previous UPA government. Under that proposal, 108 Rafale fighter jets were to be made by HAL in India. But the public sector firm was unable to come to an agreement with Dassault over various issues, and the proposal was withdrawn by the government in June 2015.
THE SUKHOI DEAL
- 272 Sukhoi SU-30 MKI aircraft for IAF
- 50 in flyaway condition from Russia, 222 to be made by HAL under licence
- 6 contracts with HAL, first four for 140, next two for 40 and 42 respectively
- 3-year delay in production of 33 aircraft from the first four contracts
so you make money by just outsourcing the work to OEMs.
the IAF loses $$ because they have to add HAL as the middle man (instead of directly going to OEM)
Where can I sign up to get into this kind of work?
Government of India has to provide jobs to reservation quota chaap people otherwise who will employ these lazy buffoons who are enjoying free salaries at cost of tax payers money. IAF needs and India's defence preparedness be damned.
11 BRD to Hand Over First SU 30 MKI overhauled by them to operational Squadron on 26 Oct 18 in a landmark event at Ojhar.
PMO, these days you can get even sweeter offers than this. Heck you can get a Foreign vendor pay off the some of your debt for the facility that you can't pay for.
As for as HAL, guess who makes the money, when HAL makes profits?
First indigenously overhauled Su 30 MKI fighter aircraft handed over for use
ANI | Nashik [India] Last Updated at October 26, 2018 13:45 IST
In a landmark event, Air Marshal Hemant Sharma, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief of Maintenance Command, handed over the first indigenously overhauled Su 30 MKI aircraft to Air Marshal HS Arora, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief of South Western Air Command at an impressive ceremony held at Air Force Station, Ojhar.
11 BRD is the only fighter aircraft repair depot of the Indian Air Force and undertakes repair and overhaul of frontline fighters such as MIG-29 and Sukhoi 30 MKI. It was established on 29 April 1974 and subsequently renamed as 11 Base Repair Depot (BRD) on 1 January 1975.
The depot progressively built and improved the technical expertise and infrastructure over the years and by 1983 it had overhauled 100 Su-7 aircraft. From 1983 to 1988, the depot also undertook overhaul of MIG-21 and 28 aircraft were produced. Later, overhaul facility for MIG-23 aircraft was set up in 1986 and 248 aircraft were overhauled till May 2015.
Overhaul of MIG-29 aircraft commenced in the year 1996 and presently, the upgradation of MIG-29 and Repair and Overhaul (ROH) of Su-30 MKI aircraft is being undertaken at the depot. In addition, 11 BRD is the only agency to undertake overhaul of ejection seats and role equipment of Su-30 MKI aircraft, both for IAF and HAL.
Earlier, the first Su-30 MKI overhauled by this depot successfully took off on 24 April 2018 and has been flight tested for its airworthiness, before inducting it for operational tasks at a flying squadron.
First indigenously overhauled Su 30 MKI fighter aircraft handed over for use
++++
However, it is not the first Su-30 MKI to be overhauled in India as the article states, it is the first Flanker overhauled by BRD. The first overhaul of Flanker in India was performed by HAL, Nashik. The aircraft (SB-027, delivered to IAF as part of the 3rd batch of the Sukhoi-30 Program) was delivered to IAF on 9th January, 2015.
Note: 3rd batch of Sukhoi 30 is the first batch of Su-30 MKI, as the first two batches were Su-30Ks. The 3rd batch joined 20th Squadron 'Lightnings' based at Lohegoan, Pune in 2002.
ANI | Nashik [India] Last Updated at October 26, 2018 13:45 IST
In a landmark event, Air Marshal Hemant Sharma, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief of Maintenance Command, handed over the first indigenously overhauled Su 30 MKI aircraft to Air Marshal HS Arora, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief of South Western Air Command at an impressive ceremony held at Air Force Station, Ojhar.
11 BRD is the only fighter aircraft repair depot of the Indian Air Force and undertakes repair and overhaul of frontline fighters such as MIG-29 and Sukhoi 30 MKI. It was established on 29 April 1974 and subsequently renamed as 11 Base Repair Depot (BRD) on 1 January 1975.
The depot progressively built and improved the technical expertise and infrastructure over the years and by 1983 it had overhauled 100 Su-7 aircraft. From 1983 to 1988, the depot also undertook overhaul of MIG-21 and 28 aircraft were produced. Later, overhaul facility for MIG-23 aircraft was set up in 1986 and 248 aircraft were overhauled till May 2015.
Overhaul of MIG-29 aircraft commenced in the year 1996 and presently, the upgradation of MIG-29 and Repair and Overhaul (ROH) of Su-30 MKI aircraft is being undertaken at the depot. In addition, 11 BRD is the only agency to undertake overhaul of ejection seats and role equipment of Su-30 MKI aircraft, both for IAF and HAL.
Earlier, the first Su-30 MKI overhauled by this depot successfully took off on 24 April 2018 and has been flight tested for its airworthiness, before inducting it for operational tasks at a flying squadron.
First indigenously overhauled Su 30 MKI fighter aircraft handed over for use
++++
However, it is not the first Su-30 MKI to be overhauled in India as the article states, it is the first Flanker overhauled by BRD. The first overhaul of Flanker in India was performed by HAL, Nashik. The aircraft (SB-027, delivered to IAF as part of the 3rd batch of the Sukhoi-30 Program) was delivered to IAF on 9th January, 2015.
Note: 3rd batch of Sukhoi 30 is the first batch of Su-30 MKI, as the first two batches were Su-30Ks. The 3rd batch joined 20th Squadron 'Lightnings' based at Lohegoan, Pune in 2002.
IAF recieves first Sukhoi overhauled by HAL
By OneIndia Defence Desk Updated: Friday, January 9, 2015, 19:31 [IST]
The Indian Air Force (IAF) on Friday received the first desi-overhauled Sukhoi. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar handed over the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL)-overhauled Su-30 MKI to the IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha at an event held at Nashik.
Su-30MKI the backbone of IAF
The Sukhois have become the backbone of IAF fighter fleet. With concerns of the falling Squadrons growing, the IAF heavily depends on the Sukhois. Patting HAL on its back, Defence Minister said the workforce in Nashik played a key role in absorbing technology.
"India will continue to need fighter planes such as Sukhois due to not-so-friendly neighbourhood. Keep-up the good work towards increasing the production capacity. We are one family and let us work together," Manohar Parrikar said.
HAL-IAF inter-dependent
Air Chief Arup Raha said that the IAF would continue to depend on HAL heavily in future too. "We both are inter-dependent," he said. HAL Chairman Dr R K Tyagi, said that the second aircraft is also ready for delivery.
"HAL will also act as a single window OEM for supporting Su-30MKI fleet. We are confident of improving the serviceability and ramp up capacity," he added. The Su-30 overhaul facility at HAL Nashik is only of its kind in the world and has export prospect since nearly 10 countries have Su-30 fleet.
New facilities for the Sukhois
HAL set up 10 new shops for the overhaul of Sukhois. In addition, existing facilities like pipeline overhaul, plating/process and shops of Aircraft Manufacturing Divisions are extensively used during the overhaul. Tentative Repair Technical Documents (RTD) were received from Russia. During the overhaul process, the technologies have been finalised with the help of Russian and HAL experts.
There are 2478 number of tasks/technology process to execute the complete overhaul of aircraft. Online system for tracking and monitoring of parts are also established at Nashik.
Overhauling is a complex process
During overhaul, an aircraft undergoes stripping to skeleton level, checking and reconditioning of each and every repairable component, incorporating more than 600 modifications, replacing the non-repairable defective/life expired components and finally rebuilding it to original configuration of latest standard of Su 30 MKI aircraft.
More than 10000 lines of unique part numbers, amounting to nearly 75000 quantities are processed, reconditioned, repaired, overhauled and assembled back on the aircraft. After successful testing of various systems on ground and in air, as per stipulated flight profiles, the aircraft is certified to fly for next assigned TBO life. At present, the TTL (Total Technical Life) of the aircraft is 6000 hrs/25 years.
Overhauling process starts when aircraft along with document is received in ARS (Aircraft Receiving Section), incoming test are performed and de-painting of total structure is done.
Aircraft is virtually dismantled
During aircraft dismantling, major components such as engines, wings, control surfaces are dismantled first and detail dismantling to remove various aggregates/pipelines, flight control rods /bell cranks, fabricated and standard parts etc. are carried out thereafter.
The parts dismantled and pre-surveyed are sent to the concerned overhaul shops for further operations/processes. Aggregates of various systems such as mechanical system, landing gear system, aircraft armament system, aeronautical equipment system, electrical systems, avionics systems are overhauled to give it new TBO life.
"Broadly, the procedure involved are dismantling, fault finding, part reconditioning/replacement, assembly and testing. Seven hundred and forty such varieties of aggregates are involved from all overhauling shops of Nasik and sister Divisions," says HAL chairman Dr Tyagi.
Read more at: IAF receives first Sukhoi overhauled by HAL
Last edited:
Vijainder K Thakur (@vkthakur) Tweeted:
The only reservation that the IAF can conceivably have about upgrading Su-3Omki could be HAL's involvement in the upgrade. Other than that, suggesting that the Su-30mki cannot be effectively upgraded is moronic. Additional Sukhois not an answer to fleet shortage, IAF tells ministry ( )
The only reservation that the IAF can conceivably have about upgrading Su-3Omki could be HAL's involvement in the upgrade. Other than that, suggesting that the Su-30mki cannot be effectively upgraded is moronic. Additional Sukhois not an answer to fleet shortage, IAF tells ministry ( )
Vijainder K Thakur (@vkthakur) Tweeted:
DRDO's RCI's Dual Band IRST for Su-30MKI. Some technical information Google Sites ( )
DRDO's RCI's Dual Band IRST for Su-30MKI. Some technical information Google Sites ( )
Be careful about his articles and comment's wrt Russian fighters!
IAF never stated that MKIs can't be upgraded, but that it has to get costly upgrades, to be technically viable for the future and comparable to MMRCAs. That's part of the reason, why new MKIs doesn't make sense.
His bias towards Russia is getting more and more evident. He his releasing articles on Sputniknews, which is known for unreliable and Russia biased reports.
He once stated in an article, that heavy class fighters like the MKI, wouldn't be as costly to operate and referred to costs of a Forbes article. Problem was, that I looked up the article and that it showed that heavy class F15s are considerably more expensive to operate than medium class fighters like F16s or F18s and when I pointed that out to him on Twitter, I got blocked.
=>
The Hourly Cost Of Operating The U.S. Military's Fighter Fleet [Infographic]
You are continually speaking rubbish. Su30 MKI is made in India including avionics, radar etc. This means that as India develops avionics and radar for Tejas MK2 or AMCA, the same can be used in Su30. How is that expensive? In fact Su30 is the cheapestBe careful about his articles and comment's wrt Russian fighters!
IAF never stated that MKIs can't be upgraded, but that it has to get costly upgrades, to be technically viable for the future and comparable to MMRCAs. That's part of the reason, why new MKIs doesn't make sense.
His bias towards Russia is getting more and more evident. He his releasing articles on Sputniknews, which is known for unreliable and Russia biased reports.
He once stated in an article, that heavy class fighters like the MKI, wouldn't be as costly to operate and referred to costs of a Forbes article. Problem was, that I looked up the article and that it showed that heavy class F15s are considerably more expensive to operate than medium class fighters like F16s or F18s and when I pointed that out to him on Twitter, I got blocked.
=>
The Hourly Cost Of Operating The U.S. Military's Fighter Fleet [Infographic]
Sure. And the Russians are stupid enough to let us make Su-30 100% indigenous. You will never have indigenous engines and radar on Su-30, this is how they milk their customers after selling aircraft dirt cheap. Made in India is a tricky term, you might make an Al-31F in India, but with all the critical components flying in from abroad, sure Made in India it is.
We have no other option but to get more
Su 30
More Rafales ie after the First 36 will come only after 2022
Su 30
More Rafales ie after the First 36 will come only after 2022
Only to people that have no idea about avation and defence. You proved that on DFI and now you are desperate for my attention here as well, not worth my time.Do you understand that Su30 only uses minor components from Russia as part of the contract, not major component? Engine, radar are all made in India. India funded the project when Russia was bankrupt and hence Russia gave the ToT to India in full. Russia is loyal, unlike USA.
Whatever we order again will take 3 years to arrive, whether it is the Rafale or the MKI.
But we need 2 new squadrons each of Rafale and MKI to be ordered or the IAF will become smaller than the PAF once the Migs exit.