Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[RATHORE]

Whatever we order again will take 3 years to arrive, whether it is the Rafale or the MKI.

But we need 2 new squadrons each of Rafale and MKI to be ordered or the IAF will become smaller than the PAF once the Migs exit.

I would go for two more squadrons of Su-30's (but work towards upgrading the whole fleet as had been discussed earlier). Start up one or two private lines of the LCA Tejas MK1A - with the intention of ramped up production and eventually taking HAL out of the picture altogether.

And I'd wrap up that old, rumored, large scale Rafale production deal (~150 for IAF, ~50 for INAA) but with the slight twist of 36 more Rafales immediately as a G-2-G deal since locally produced ones are probably far in the future (and when the big deal is signed, we make 36 less than we originally would have).

Last of all, I would keep an eye on the Russian PAK FA program; and once they finally complete them and roll them out, I would look into purchasing a few squadrons to make up numbers and start getting our pilots familiarized with stealth fighters.

I think a mixed bag solution like this would help India maintain decent numbers while fielding a high quality force. But out of all of my suggestions, the Tejas solution is most crucial; that's the only way we'll make up the sheer numbers shortfall any time in the near future. And once we have LCA's in decent numbers for Air Defense, that'll free up the heavier and more powerful fighters to undertake offensive operations.

 

[randomradio]

I would go for two more squadrons of Su-30's (but work towards upgrading the whole fleet as had been discussed earlier). Start up one or two private lines of the LCA Tejas MK1A - with the intention of ramped up production and eventually taking HAL out of the picture altogether.

And I'd wrap up that old, rumored, large scale Rafale production deal (~150 for IAF, ~50 for INAA) but with the slight twist of 36 more Rafales immediately as a G-2-G deal since locally produced ones are probably far in the future (and when the big deal is signed, we make 36 less than we originally would have).

Last of all, I would keep an eye on the Russian PAK FA program; and once they finally complete them and roll them out, I would look into purchasing a few squadrons to make up numbers and start getting our pilots familiarized with stealth fighters.

I think a mixed bag solution like this would help India maintain decent numbers while fielding a high quality force. But out of all of my suggestions, the Tejas solution is most crucial; that's the only way we'll make up the sheer numbers shortfall any time in the near future. And once we have LCA's in decent numbers for Air Defense, that'll free up the heavier and more powerful fighters to undertake offensive operations.

Fully privatising LCA is impossible. The IAF offered it to the private industry, nobody took it. They all prefer subcontracting work, and nobody wants to directly compete with HAL yet.

Everything else you said, yep.

 

[chanakya]

Yes, the MKIs are.

We can, but there's also the question of penetrating defences, which the Rafale is better at. When the MKI request was made by the SFC, the MKI was the best option at the time, now it's the Rafale. Tomorrow, it will be the AMCA. The day after, something else.

The rafale is a very capable aircraft and we should get at least 36 more esp as our intitial ranche deliveries end just about the time, the new mk4 of the rafale is expected.

But letnot f's orget that till about 2012 su30mki was a beast comparable to f18 and f15 till the amercians began to upgrade radars, avionics, ew and weapons. India failed to start su 30mki upgrades in time. Iaf will always be the boy in the toy store asking for new toys but the government must have the to vision to force them to draw maximum life from existing platforms and much as we spend money on new acquisitions we must move rapidly to upgrade our existing inventory

 

[randomradio]

The rafale is a very capable aircraft and we should get at least 36 more esp as our intitial ranche deliveries end just about the time, the new mk4 of the rafale is expected.

Yep, I'm hoping for a follow-on contract by 2020.

But letnot f's orget that till about 2012 su30mki was a beast comparable to f18 and f15 till the amercians began to upgrade radars, avionics, ew and weapons. India failed to start su 30mki upgrades in time.

The Russians have screwed up their avionics development a bit. They didn't start working on a Flanker AESA until recently, so we are waiting for that. In the meantime, the Russians have offered an Irbis-E upgrade for the MLU, so we have to see if the IAF will bite that or not.

A lot of other stuff on MKI will be indigenised, like the EW suite, MAWS, IRST, cockpit, comm suite, navigation, IMA architecture etc. I'm assuming the flight controls and avionics will have to be separated if this is to happen.

Uttam will be the cherry on top, but I think we are going full Russian there. They are obviously ahead in the radar department. We were supposed to get an FGFA-derived radar with our own software for the MKI. Who knows what's happening there?

Iaf will always be the boy in the toy store asking for new toys but the government must have the to vision to force them to draw maximum life from existing platforms and much as we spend money on new acquisitions we must move rapidly to upgrade our existing inventory

Aren't they doing that already?

The Mig-29s have been upgraded to Mig-35 standards minus the AESA radar. They are good until 2030.
And M-2000s and Jaguars are in the process of being upgraded. 100 jets will fly into the 2040s.

That takes care of all our old aircraft.

 

[Sancho]

su30mki was a beast comparable to f18 and f15 till the amercians began to upgrade radars, avionics, ew and weapons.

Actually it remained a beast, because it's PESA radar, just as Su 35 BMs belong to the he best radars in the world, also while US legacy fighters getting customized IRST upgrades, the Flankers have them since decades.
The only problem MKI has, is RCS and EW, both fields where the Su 35 BM made considerable improvements and where even the Su 30 MKM has advantages, because it came later and added modern EW sensors too.
We know that the coming upgrade will deal with these issues and even a BARS upgrade would make it superior to most AESAs too, because size matters, not just technology.

Apart of that, the biggest issue are costs! Russian fighters are known to be cheap to procure, but expensive to maintain. That's even more true for heavy class fighters and by the fact how dependent IAF is on the MKI, because of falling squad numbers and hardly capable fighters in the fleet (MKI, Mig 29, M2K).
IAF needs a 2nd alternative fighter in large numbers to be spread around the country, that is also more cost effective. Only the the workload of the MKI can be reduced.

Add all of that together and you have the MRCA/MMRCA requirements.

 

[_Anonymous_]

The Mig-29s have been upgraded to Mig-35 standards minus the AESA radar. They are good until 2030

Are we referrung to the MiG -29's of RuAF or IAF? Assuming it's the latter, why didn't they come retrofitted with AESA? ( of Israeli or any other like brand, given the Russians have yet to come up with an AESA)

 

[Sancho]

Are we referrung to the MiG -29's of RuAF or IAF? Assuming it's the latter, why didn't they come retrofitted with AESA? ( of Israeli or any other like brand, given the Russians have yet to come up with an AESA)

There is no Mig 29 upgrade to Mig 35 standard, but to SMT standard. That's the Migs got the same Zhuk ME pulse doppler radar and RD 33-3 engines, contrary to the Mig 35, that is based on the newer airframe, with new radar, EW and engines.

Neither AESA, nor the Mig 35 were fully developed when the upgrade was fixed and the AESA required nose modifications and the Russians had difficulties with finding the right balance between size of the radar and weight balance for the fighter.


People tend to hype AESA as something special, but it's only a newer radar technology, while the trend in modern air combat is, to use passive sensors like IRST, IR MAWS and advanced RWRs, to detect and track targets from long distances and up to 360° around the fighter. That and RCS reductions, by using modern materials and coatings, are the key differences for Mig 35 and Su 35. Both have come with more EW sensors, than latest F15, F16, F18s today!

 

[_Anonymous_]

There is no Mig 29 upgrade to Mig 35 standard, but to SMT standard. That's the Migs got the same Zhuk ME pulse doppler radar and RD 33-3 engines, contrary to the Mig 35, that is based on the newer airframe, with new radar, EW and engines.

Neither AESA, nor the Mig 35 were fully developed when the upgrade was fixed and the AESA required nose modifications and the Russians had difficulties with finding the right balance between size of the radar and weight balance for the fighter.


People tend to hype AESA as something special, but it's only a newer radar technology, while the trend in modern air combat is, to use passive sensors like IRST, IR MAWS and advanced RWRs, to detect and track targets from long distances and up to 360° around the fighter. That and RCS reductions, by using modern materials and coatings, are the key differences for Mig 35 and Su 35. Both have come with more EW sensors, than latest F15, F16, F18s today!

So @randomradio was being his super optimistic self, as usual?

 

[Sancho]

So @randomradio was being his super optimistic self, as usual?

Everybody is free to have random thoughts, but you have to understand the difference between the old Mig 29s and a new Mig 35s, to see what is what. Just as you have to look beyond radar and flight performance of the Flankers, to see what has changed between the original Su 35 and the Su 35BM, only then you can judge where the Russians might have messed up, or if they have at all.

Su 27 => Su 35BM => Su 57

All with high flight performance and manuverability, but with every new generation, the RCS as well as EW made a considerable improvement!

 

[randomradio]

Are we referrung to the MiG -29's of RuAF or IAF? Assuming it's the latter, why didn't they come retrofitted with AESA? ( of Israeli or any other like brand, given the Russians have yet to come up with an AESA)

The IAF Mig-29s.

There's not much difference between the Mig-29UPG and Mig-35. The AESA radar wasn't ready when we signed the contract the previous decade, it's still not ready even today, and it's unlikely our Mig-29s will get it since they don't have much life left. Our Mig-29s also have other international avionics, so it's been MKIzed with an indigenous EW suite, French HMDS etc.

Oh, btw there are two Mig-35 versions. One that was offered to India in MMRCA and the other that is still in development for the RuAF. This is what the Russians are claiming now. As of now there is not much information about this new Mig-35, but the avionics for the Mig-35 that was offered to us is part of the Mig-29UPG.

It's all semantics. The SMT is basically an upgrade of the Mig-29A variants with Mig-29M avionics. And the Mig-35 is basically the new marketing term for the Mig-29M. People who commit to actual analysis know this.

 

[_Anonymous_]

The IAF Mig-29s.

There's not much difference between the Mig-29UPG and Mig-35. The AESA radar wasn't ready when we signed the contract the previous decade, it's still not ready even today, and it's unlikely our Mig-29s will get it since they don't have much life left. Our Mig-29s also have other international avionics, so it's been MKIzed with an indigenous EW suite, French HMDS etc.

Oh, btw there are two Mig-35 versions. One that was offered to India in MMRCA and the other that is still in development for the RuAF. This is what the Russians are claiming now. As of now there is not much information about this new Mig-35, but the avionics for the Mig-35 that was offered to us is part of the Mig-29UPG.

It's all semantics. The SMT is basically an upgrade of the Mig-29A variants with Mig-29M avionics. And the Mig-35 is basically the new marketing term for the Mig-29M. People who commit to actual analysis know this.

Assuming we will fly both the MiG -29 & Mirage -2k well into the 2030's, shouldn't we be retrofitting them with the whole she bangs - AESA, IRST, MAWS, EW suite, etc? Ditto with the Jaguar ( aside from the AESA). Why the thrift? Doesn't make sense.

 

[randomradio]

Assuming we will fly both the MiG -29 & Mirage -2k well into the 2030's, shouldn't we be retrofitting them with the whole she bangs - AESA, IRST, MAWS, EW suite, etc? Ditto with the Jaguar ( aside from the AESA). Why the thrift? Doesn't make sense.

Technological hurdles, not exactly thrift.

Mig-29 has been upgraded for only 1000-1500 more hours. So it's not a good idea to spend so much money on a "non-existent" AESA radar right now. At the current time, it's better than anything that PAF possesses, and does its job. It's not expected to fly into the 2030s. AFAIK, one squadron was expected to exit in 2027. It has everything else.

M-2000 has received a kickass upgrade that's even better than the Mig-29. It doesn't need an IRST since the MICA-IR is good enough for the job. That's also why even the Rafale doesn't have IRST today. As for AESA, it doesn't exist for the M-2000. RBE-2AA, EL/M 2052 and Uttam are viable options. The aircraft will be upgraded for 5500 hours more, so it's good into the 2040s. But the AESA upgrade can come only after 2030, if the IAF does plan on flying the jet into the 2040s.

Jaguar DARIN III will have the whole shebang. The ASRAAM makes up for the lack of IRST. And IRST is mainly for air superiority fighters anyway, so it doesn't matter.

 

[Sancho]

There's not much difference between the Mig-29UPG and Mig-35.

Except for...

...different airframe
...more weapon stations
...different engine
...TVC
...IR MAWS
...LWR
...modifications for a pod station
...and after all AESA radar

Other than that, they are the same.

It doesn't need an IRST since the MICA-IR is good enough for the job.

If that would be true, there wouldn't be a need to upgrade F15s, F16s, F18s, or even Rafale F4, with a dedicated IRST. But it's not true of course, because the IR seekers of WVR missiles have only very limited range, while dedicated IRST systems, can detect, track and ID targets at far greater distances and with more capabilities. Not to mention that IRST is the longest range sensor, to counter stealth fighters!

 

[randomradio]

Except for...

...different airframe
...more weapon stations
...different engine
...TVC
...IR MAWS
...LWR
...modifications for a pod station
...and after all AESA radar

Other than that, they are the same.

Different airframe is obvious. It's an upgrade, not a new build. You obviously haven't kept up with the discussion, but we are talking about avionics.

Apart from that, it's pretty much the same avionics. It has the same MAWS and LWS called SOAR and SOLO.

If the AESA radar was ready back then, it's obvious the IAF would have chosen it.

Another entirely useless post.

 

[Sancho]

Different airframe is obvious. It's an upgrade, not a new build.

Lol and that's exactly the point that makes all what you said before, just the usual misinformation!

The Mig 29 UPG is upgraded to the SMT standard, that's why it uses the same techs and systems of the SMT.
Mig 35 is a new build fighter, based on the newer Mig 29M2 airframe, just as INs Mig 29Ks.

So you can upgrade the 29K to Mig 35 standard, but you can't upgrade IAFs older airframes with all the new techs and systems.

 

[randomradio]

Lol and that's exactly the point that makes all what you said before, just the usual misinformation!

The Mig 29 UPG is upgraded to the SMT standard, that's why it uses the same techs and systems of the SMT.
Mig 35 is a new build fighter, based on the newer Mig 29M2 airframe, just as INs Mig 29Ks.

So you can upgrade the 29K to Mig 35 standard, but you can't upgrade IAFs older airframes with all the new techs and systems.

Dude, you literally have no idea about anything.

When it comes to avionics, all variants of the single seat Mig-29 can be equipped with all avionics made for the Mig-29. So an 80s model Mig-29 can very easily carry 2020s era avionics, which is what the UPG is. The only exception is the Mig-29UB, which cannot carry a radar, but can carry everything else.

Mig-35 has a very slightly modified airframe, and no, it's not based on the "Mig-29M2". Mig-29M2 is simply the twin seat version of the single seat Mig-29M. The single seat version of the Mig-35 is simply called Mig-35, without any other designation, while the twin seat version is Mig-35D, which is a slight modification of the Mig-29M2. So not knowing this shows that you don't even have a basic understanding of the various Fulcrum variants.

The Mig-29K and Mig-29UPG now have roughly the same avionics. In fact, it was planned that way, plus, there were not many other options anyway.

Only those who are not in the know get suckered into semantics.

 

[R!cK]

@Sancho @randomradio

I think you guys also need to consider the fact that this upgrade was finalised and signed by early 2008. which took the Mig-29K as the standard of specification. The entire fleet was expected to be upgraded by 2010, it was a pretty relevant standard of upgrade for that period. There was no logic in going for a Russian AESA that was not in service even with the Russians, otherwise the IN's Mig-29Ks would have been equipped with an AESA rasar. But Russia being Russia and India being India, the upgrades never followed the specified timelines and in year 2018, we still have nearly one squadron to complete upgrading.

The Mirage story is no different, the fundamental problem has been that no upgrade program had ever maintained the specified timelines nor been negotiated without taking ages. So by the time Standard of Upgrade is finalized to completion of negotiation/contract signature, the tech is half outdated already. Combine that with the usual delay in execution, the upgraded units are not very contemporary for the generation they are expected to serve. So it's better to just think of these upgrades as mere life extension, with minor enhancement in combat potential. Luckily for us, our western neighbour doesn't seem to be in a position to penalize us for this.

Good Day!

India to upgrade MiG-29 fleet
Sun, Mar 11 2007. 02 02 PM IST

NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force has inked a deal to upgrade its 78 MiG-29 fighters to compensate for a rapid depletion of its fighter fleet.

Under the $800-million deal, signed recently with a consortium of Russia’s state-owned Rosboron export and United Aircraft Corporation, the IAF’s fleet of three squadrons of MiG-29 air superiority jets will get their service life extended from 25 to 40 years.

The IAF, which is currently phasing out MiG-21 and MiG-23 jets, has seen its strength plunging to an all-time low of 29 squadrons, as against its sanctioned strength of 45.

The force is also in the final stages of negotiating a 1.5-billion euro deal with French company Thales for upgrading 52 Mirage 2000H fighters to extend their service life by 25 years.

The MiG-29 upgrade will include installing beyond visual range air-to-air missiles, new Klimov-33 engines with digital fuel injection, Phazotron Zhuk-ME phased array radar, an all-glass cockpit and aerial refuelling prods.

Initially, two MiG-29s will be sent to Russia for prototype development and the rest will be upgraded in HAL’s Nashik-based Ozar plant.

“The upgradation will be completed by 2010,” a defence ministry official said.

The agreement also stipulates the setting up of a service centre in India for the MiG-29. This centre will also look after the navy’s carrier-borne MiG-29K fighters, the first of which will be inducted by the end of 2008.

India to upgrade MiG-29 fleet - Livemint

 

[randomradio]

@Sancho @randomradio

I think you guys also need to consider the fact that this upgrade was finalised and signed by early 2008. which took the Mig-29K as the standard of specification. The entire fleet was expected to be upgraded by 2010, it was a pretty relevant standard of upgrade for that period. There was no logic in going for a Russian AESA that was not in service even with the Russians, otherwise the IN's Mig-29Ks would have been equipped with an AESA rasar. But Russia being Russia and India being India, the upgrades never followed the specified timelines and in year 2018, we still have nearly one squadron to complete upgrading.

The Mirage story is no different, the fundamental problem has been that no upgrade program had ever maintained the specified timelines nor been negotiated without taking ages. So by the time Standard of Upgrade is finalized to completion of negotiation/contract signature, the tech is half outdated already. Combine that with the usual delay in execution, the upgraded units are not very contemporary for the generation they are expected to serve. So it's better to just think of these upgrades as mere life extension, with minor enhancement in combat potential. Luckily for us, our western neighbour doesn't seem to be in a position to penalize us for this.

Good Day!

The Mig-35 that was offered in the MMRCA was basically Mig-29K/UPG avionics on a Mig-29M airframe. And they brought that package in a Mig-29M2 for testing. It was originally called Mig-29MRCA. A similar configuration was recently sold to Egypt. So the configuration itself has still not changed even in 2018.

As for the M2000, the upgrades are top notch. Even the French are now going for pretty much the same upgrade, 10 years later. No AESA for them either.
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/16...Upgrade_Nearly_Similar_To_That_Of_IAF_Mirages

Point being, the configurations are still relevant. If someone else wants to upgrade their Mig-29 and M2000, they have no choice but to pick what India has already picked for UPG and M2000I. At best, you can choose new stuff for tech that have a smaller gestation period, like cockpit, HMDS and computers.

But yeah, these upgrades are not exactly expected to bring them on par with today's "advanced" aircraft. Even the Americans are introducing AESA radars on their F-16s only now. The idea is to keep these aircraft relevant. The Mig-29UPG and M2000I/TI with their current configurations will be operated alongside similar class of aircraft even in the late 2020s in the US and other advanced economies. The USAF will be operating their Block 52s without AESA even after 2025. Our high end tech insertion will obviously come from the MKI MLU, Rafale, MCA and AMCA for now.

 

[Sancho]

I think you guys also need to consider the fact that this upgrade was finalised and signed by early 2008.

Quote myself here =>

There is no Mig 29 upgrade to Mig 35 standard, but to SMT standard. That's the Migs got the same Zhuk ME pulse doppler radar and RD 33-3 engines, contrary to the Mig 35, that is based on the newer airframe, with new radar, EW and engines.

Neither AESA, nor the Mig 35 were fully developed when the upgrade was fixed and the AESA required nose modifications and the Russians had difficulties with finding the right balance between size of the radar and weight balance for the fighter.

 

[Sancho]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1058685014047510528