These will be bought in kits from Russia so, i don't think HAL would take much time to assemble them.
Is it possible at BRD? Like MiG-29
Sukhoi Su-30MKI
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
India. I think the plan is to upgrade while the jets are overhauled.
Even so, the assembly area is better used for LCA's assembly. Otherwise HAL will take 4 years and keep that line occupied for MKI only.
Not to mention, it's pointless buying more. Even 40 more Mk1A is a better option.
Yes. HAL will overhaul 20 jets a year, while IAF's BRD can upgrade 10. So the upgrades can easily come in at that rate for the entire fleet.
Ideally, at least one, maybe even two private lines should be started. If it were up to me I wouldn't trust HAL with such a crucial project at all, but at the very least involve other, far more competent players.
Why do you say that? Ultimately don't we need both? PAF might be a joke, but the PLAAF continues to grow at a crazy speed, adding cutting edge fighters. Both the Su-30 and Rafale, in significant numbers, will be crucial on that front.
LCA's are important in numbers as interceptors and maybe for CAS (although I think India should buy some aircraft like Warthogs/Su-25's and assign them to the Army, along with attack helis & gunships for that role); which is why I'd try to involve a couple of private players/lines as well - but why would a Su-30 purchase be completely useless according to you?
They're reliable, high quality aircraft, that will be upgraded to remain cutting edge; and we'll need advanced aircraft in high numbers to maintain credible deterrence against China's ever-expanding fleet even while we are theoretically clobbering Pakistan.
I think the original plan was to induct some 350 Su-30 MKI. Right now we're at 260 including the 20 on order, if I'm not mistaken. With no certainty on the LCA - Mk2 / MCA & the Rafale deal in controversy, we need to make up the most for the FA we retire. I don't see any better way than induction of the MKI's. Right up to 350 followed by gradual up gradation to Super Sukhoi standards over the next two decades. They have their disadvantages in terms of Op Ex & heavy maintenance but quantity has a quality of its own especially if we are to stack up against the Chinese who're taking giant strides in both quality & quantity of their FA.
Further, I believe based on material I've read that the upgrade to the Super Sukhoi version is delayed as the IAF seems to be interested in the same engine which will power the Su-57. That's under development and will require some more time to mature. Hopefully, with the upgrades, whenever they come, it should be less maintenance intensive than the present lot are.
Yup, we can't get too picky right now. I'd go for more Sukhois (although a close eye needs to be kept on any HAL workmanship), and I recently read that Russia will make its first order of SU-57's around 2020 - I'd go for a few squadrons off the shelf of those too. Other than that, hopefully bring in the private sector for LCA production, wrap up the IAF and IN Rafale mega-deal ASAP (if the current Gvt returns), do whatever jugaad is necessary to keep Mirages & MiG-29's flying (buy lightly used ones from other AF's either to bolster numbers or increase spare parts supply), and if possible either purchase a limited amount of CAS aircraft or at least purchase attack helis in large numbers (and handover to the Army) so that the rest of the AF isn't occupied with CAS in a conflict.
I understand the argument that more quantity is a quality in itself, but the counter argument is can they afford to budget this increase while acquiring the necessary platforms to fill in the existing/upcoming capability gaps?
Why do you think the current paralysis in defense procurement will end if the current admin returns? What needs to happen for more streamlined & timely acquistion process. I'm not being facetious or anything, I just truly never understood why the IAF became so inept in moving forward with deals/inducting platforms.
That's a good question; I couldn't tell you whether there is or isn't - but if there isn't room in the budget, they'll have to find a way to make room, imo.
Let me explain the conditional clause I inserted about the current Government returning; I'm saying that I'm much more hopeful of a big Rafale deal being concluded under the BJP for a couple of reasons -
1) I don't know whether it was this forum, the previous one, or both - but there was a guy called Parikrama (later Aashish) who used to regularly post pretty reliable, inside info about the military and Government, including and especially when it came to military procurement/projects (I believe he even had a dedicated thread about the MMRCA etc). And based on the information he posted, it seemed that before the whole Rafale controversy began, the current Government was pretty close to concluding a big deal for locally built Rafales - the only remaining question was whether the IN would also opt for Rafales (and some of his posts suggested that the Rafale had an edge in that tender too).
2) After the sheer amount of noise the Congress has made on the Rafale, it'd take something uniquely shameless, even from the Congress, to go ahead and still conclude the purchase of the same plane.
3) New reports are now emerging that part of the reason Congress made a hue and cry about Rafales (other than political expediency) is because striking a deal for the other aircraft (Eurofighter) would have proved far more beneficial for them; some people in the current Gvt even went as far as suggesting that one reason Congress never bought Rafales was because they weren't getting the "commission" they wanted.
4) Recall AK Antony's tenure as Def Min.
As of now, HAL doesn't have the money to convert the MKI production line into a marriage hall let alone another aircraft line., courtesy this brilliant dispensation.
No chance. LCA and MCA will both go to HAL.
We are already top heavy. Buying more MKIs is pointless, when in the same time we can buy Rafales which will cost much cheaper than the first order 'cause we have already paid for the customisation and infrastructure.
We don't need Warthogs, its utility has passed. LCA with smart weapons like Brimstone or SANT that can hit moving targets will be more effective.
LCA will never go to private players beyond subcontracting work. But private players will be making 70% of the LCA anyway. Only HAL will be the lead integrator. Private players had their chance, they didn't take it.
Whatever MKIs we buy now will receive major upgrades only in 2040. There's no point buying anymore than we have already. The focus should be on upgrading whatever's left and focus on the PAK FA/FGFA instead. The requirement for it will come up in a few years. Until then Rafales are more important.
The problem with MKI is it doesn't change anything. Our requirement for 200+ Rafales will remain as it is. It's not like buying 40 MKI will make it 160+ Rafales. All it does is eat into the budget and not provide any capability upgrade.
MKI will get the Su-35's engine, not the Su-57's. Su-57's main engines are years away, 2025.
I never said it's an either or situation. You're making it out to be so. Our requirement of MKI is independent of Rafale. Well, given the political uncertainty, I very much doubt if the BJP will return to power on its own. We know which way the Congress swings. Assuming the third gender of Indian politics comes to power with Congress support, we can be pretty certain what does that signify for the Rafale.
Taking into consideration, all these uncertainties, there's a case to be made for more MKI's. If for nothing, then just to make up the nos.
I was quoting PKS from memory where in he wrote some time back that the Super Sukhoi would get engines meant for the Su-57 & that would be somewhere after 2023.
There was a plan for 90 more jets with 1 base through MII. But it died in favour of a tender under SPM.
As an emergency purchase, I doubt there is enough money for both MKI and Rafale as two separate deals. HAL is pushing for both 60 more LCA and 40 MKI. But the IAF is not interested in either right now.
Not for conversion of MKI line, here HAL doesn't have money to pay for salaries, forget any line transformations.The second line has already been sanctioned and paid for.
And additional MKI's are pointless that this gutless enterprise in PMO doesn't even pay for the MKI's already built and delivered.
What HAL needs to do is now start identifying land it can liquidate to pay for LUH and HTT40 production and keep running the ALH line, and seek some export customers for it.
It's plan B should be :
to create a JV with ADAG for sale of SU30MKI's to IAF and transfer all of it's Service and MRO to Ambani group, next day there will be an order for 400 MKI;s out of thin air. (They should the JV Aarti systems)
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I say they have to make provisions for additional MKI's. And what Rafales are you talking about? They've already paid Dassault an advance of 2 billion USD. I guess there's another 6 billion to be paid in the span of 4 years beginning now. Is that a big deal? Or are you referring to additional procurements of Rafales?
Additional batch of 36 Rafales. Right now, we have paid for the infrastructure of at least 90 Rafales. We only have to pay for the aircraft, spares and weapons for a second deal. Plus, it is expected to come in between 2022 and 2025, which will take care of any procurement gap between the first batch of Rafales and the MMRCA tender deliveries. Not to mention, the second batch will be partially built and fully assembled in India, which is much better than getting the 40 MKIs in CKDs.
As if now, consider any further procurement to be is in deep cold storage.
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