Sukhoi Su-30MKI
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
We are buying them to kill the airforce finally. People do not realize how the Airforce is being killed, slowly and steadily, in the name of "Indian products" and political oneupmanship enabling corrupt DPSUs to persist.
Will write a comparatively detailed write up later. Just arrived back at the home base after a hectic tour all over.
Briefly, we are losing experience and aircrafts simultaneously and do not have the financial "sanction" to make up numbers of both men and material or retain the experience.
Briefly , we have to replace 5 types of aircraft in next 15 years
If Tejas Mk1 , Mk1A , Mk2 don't materialise as promised , then we are doomed
Only if the 2nd tranche of 36 Rafales are not ordered in the next term. If possible, these 36 should be assembled in a DRAL-owned assembly line, along with the IN's 57 Rafales.
Right now, the best option is for the govt to stop MMRCA, and simply hold a national tender for private players only. The winner of the tender can be the SP and will be the lead integrator for the Rafale. Nobody will complain if Reliance wins this tender and IAF will get Rafales way sooner. We won't need 2nd tranche either.
Honestly I don't believe Reliance Will get the tender soon .
Or a new fighter winning the contract
Or Mk1A flying out.
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Best if we atleast upgrade the Su 30
The present strength is how much? 31 plus squadrons? Off the cuff as under:
11 x Su-30 MKI
06 x Jaguars
03 X Mig-29s
03 X Mirage 2000s (understrength)
06 x Mig 21 Bison
02 x Mig-27 UPG
Now, on an average, 03 x pilots per aircraft are factored. Work out the numbers required, the sanctioned strength (as sanctioned by MoD and MoF under GoI directives) of officers for all platforms (Su-30s are taking 6 per aircraft) and you will come to a position of severe manpower crunch as we add on Su-30s as there is simply no Government sanction for increment of manpower. To make matters worse, a well honed fighter pilot takes about a decade to create. But the steep pyramidal structure in career progression, with severe attrition arising out of limited promotion and no financial incentive to retain non-promoted experienced pilots in form of NFU (ironically given to DPSUs and OFBs/HAL across the workforce), is creating a severe deficit in the service bracket 10-20 years, which is highly experienced and already on the way out as they seek to switch over to Private/Civil aviation sector with roughly six to seven times pay and lesser (a fraction) work load. To make the matters worse, of the platforms above, there is a crunch of spares for the older aircrafts - Jaguars and Mirage 2000s and the Mig-21s and Mig 27s are left with hardly any airframe life. The latter are sticking around as IAF has nothing in pipeline and if it was to decommission these too, we will be left with a token airforce hardly worth the name.
This situation has led to a severe problem in terms of number of flying hours available to the young pilots (service bracket 1-5 years who need extensive flying to 'master' their platforms, leave alone develop tactics and skill to emerge as excellent fighter pilots) on the platform as the same are flown as sparingly as possible.
Same is the story in the transport - crews in aging An-32s have been left with no option but to under perform as both the engines and the airframes, due to the age, need careful 'nursing' lest a catastrophe ensues. Avro HS-748s are a joke in this era, so am not going to bother about them.
Now for the LCA - HAL has recently blamed IAF for delay as IAF demanded a thicker canopy. Does it take a genius to understand the science behind safety against bird hits? Especially when HAL is involved in data analysis of every such incident? Even if IAF has jacked up the demand now (which is incorrect), is it not HAL's "R&D" task to anticipate such things, instead of 'waiting' for 'user' to 'create' demand?
Too optimistic.
IAF will be written off in next 3 years .... hope we do not have to fight a war.
You cannot manage 6 pilots by SU30: the Nato standard to train a pilot is for him to fly his plane 180 h by year and the Indian standard is more! If you have 6 pilot by SU 30 you will need to fly each SU 30 around 1080 h by year! In fact the first overhaul of a SU 30 was done at 1000 h after 10 years so they fly only 100 h by Year.
In France we have 1.4 Pilot by Rafale , they fly 180 h by year and each Rafale fly 250 h by year. When a Rafale reach 250 h it is store in a special area at Chateaudun base until the end of the year!
How quickly can this canopy issue be sorted out, and please tell me it's the last significant point of disagreement between HAL and IAF re: Tejas. If we don't deal with this ASAP and start pumping out LCA's on an industrial scale we're gonna be screwed six ways to Sunday.
Not sure how that works out. If 3 of those pilots are expected to fly, then the MKI has to do 450 hours a year at the minimum to keep the pilots properly trained, which is impossible during peacetime. The WSOs will also need some flying time anyway. If an MKI flies 450-500 hours a year, then it's lifetime will be done in 10-15 years instead of 40 years.
In case of smaller aircraft like M-2000, which fly 180 hours or less a year, 3 pilots would mean the aircraft has to fly 450 hours a year at the minimum too.
I actually read somewhere that the IAF's pilot to fighter jet ratio is 1.25:1. The total sanctioned pilot strength in the full fleet is 4000 pilots for 1750 aircraft.
IAF changes medical norms to up number of pilots
IAF’s pilot-cockpit ratio was only 0.81 for fighter jets. In comparison, the ratio is 2:1 for USA and 2.5:1 for Pakistan. The sanctioned pilot to cockpit ratio in IAF is 1.25 for fighters, 1.5 for transport planes and 1 for helicopters. “The insufficiency in the number of available pilots in the IAF deteriorates our operational capabilities,” said the panel.
But the problem now is the IAF is nearing its sanctioned pilot strength of 4000, IIRC, they were short by less than 400 pilots last year, but the number of jets are now falling drastically.
We are cooked without the 2nd tranche though.
And I hope they get a move on with the LCA Mk1A. The Israeli stuff is a necessary technology infusion before our own indigenous tech matures.
AFAIK, the new canopy has already been designed. Now all HAL has to do is place orders for new glass. It can all be done without any delays.
Not 06 pilots, 03 x Pilots with 03 x WSOs.
Am not sure about the specifics of canopy issue. But you can surely bank on 'delays' with associated blame game. The services, as a rule, are prohibited from speaking publicly, hence HAL gets away with selective leaks and the general ignorance of the indigenous lobby.
'Pumping' out LCA will be only if HAL gets its act together and finishes setting up lines for the same. Funding for the same has already been allocated, yet they are failing to upscale. Reason is simple - they are simply behind their own time lines by a large factor.
If members were to read the figures posted by Picdelamirand-oil, they will be able to understand the problem that IAF is staring at. @STEPHEN COHEN
Precisely. So, not happening. (Your figures are off by the way, Picdelamirand-oil is more or less accurate in summary)
Why do you think that I have said that we have a major problem as we face increasing depletion of strength and fail to retain experience with hardly any wiggle room to train our young pilots?
All because the champions of indigenous production, who at a moments notice cry 'traitor' and 'corruption' if someone stresses on need to induct platforms immediately through import, fail to realize the problem being faced by IAF.
Assuming a rate of 100 hours per year for a fighter pilot, by the end of 10 years, the officer has 1000 hours of flying, considered some experience. On the other hand, a transport pilot in IAF would have flown about 2000 hours by then. But in civil aviation, the same pilot would fly 1000 hours in a year! And be paid five to six times more.
And it is this bracket, 10-20 years, which is in mid 30s and faces a very stiff competition in terms of promotion and career progression/financial incentives that then switches over to civil sector as other priorities i.e. raising their kids, securing their future etc, come into play. So, essentially, IAF loses out on the 'experienced' lot.
Mirage 2000s and Mig 21s and 27s have drastically lower sortie rates per pilot per year too, for obvious reasons. So, in essence, theoretically the pilot at 10 years is flying even lesser than Su-30 pilot.
Another issue - lack of people joining. Over the past 6 years, on an average, two thirds of the IAF vacancies at NDA have been filled. That some fraction of this is unable to join the flying branch due to reasons of medicals/aptitude, is another issue that crops up as these cadets move to the Air Force Academy.
LCA Mk 1 is sub-par, with exemptions granted to HAL in oder to make up numbers. And apprehensions on the ability of HAL to deliver in a timely manner even the sub-par machines, persist.
One needs to take a look at the Su-30MKI assembly, Jag upgrade program and the M2K program.
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@vstol Jockey Is this how it is now?
@Falcon When the MKI program started, each pilot was receiving 200-300 hours a year. During CI-04, an Indian pilot in the exercise claimed he was receiving 225 hours a year. So I think there are less pilots available compared to the number of jets, not the other way round.
And it doesn't make sense for the MKIs alone to have 1740 pilots and WSOs for just 290 jets.
IAF short of not only Fighter Jets but Pilots too
The Indian Air Force (IAF) is short of not only fighter jets but also pilots to fly them in the event of a war. The IAF on February 1, 2018, had 3,855 pilots against a sanctioned strength of 4,231, a shortfall of 376, confirmed Union Minister of Defence (State) Dr Subhash Bhamre in a written reply to Harshvardhan Singh Dungarpur in the Rajya Sabha on Monday.
The Indian Navy is also short by 91 pilots. The sanctioned strength is 735 while the force has 644 pilots. The Army Aviation Corp has a shortage of 192 pilots. Against the mandated strength of 794, the force has only 602 pilots.
The Indian Air Force (IAF) is short of not only fighter jets but also pilots to fly them in the event of a war. The IAF on February 1, 2018, had 3,855 pilots against a sanctioned strength of 4,231, a shortfall of 376, confirmed Union Minister of Defence (State) Dr Subhash Bhamre in a written reply to Harshvardhan Singh Dungarpur in the Rajya Sabha on Monday.
The Indian Navy is also short by 91 pilots. The sanctioned strength is 735 while the force has 644 pilots. The Army Aviation Corp has a shortage of 192 pilots. Against the mandated strength of 794, the force has only 602 pilots.
Likely referring to the Su-30MKI.
Should India spend Rs 1000cr on a single fighter jet?
The average Indian fighter pilot flies 200-250 hours in a year, which is necessary for training etc.
Should India spend Rs 1000cr on a single fighter jet?
The average Indian fighter pilot flies 200-250 hours in a year, which is necessary for training etc.
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Magazine Documents/2015/March 2015/0315india.pdf
IAF fighter pilots log an average of 180 to 200 flight hours a year in a variety of air-to-air and surface attack mission profiles.
IAF fighter pilots log an average of 180 to 200 flight hours a year in a variety of air-to-air and surface attack mission profiles.
GC retd Mohanto Panging
Sukhoi to land at Pasighat
He has a good reason, having belonged to the "original lot" of Sukhoi pilots. "I, too, had gone to Russia to bring the first 12 Sukhois to India in 1997 and tomorrow one of those will land at my doorstep," he said. He had trained in Moscow to fly the Sukhoi. "As far as I know, there have been only three fighter pilots from Arunachal Pradesh and all are now retired," he said.
Besides the Sukhoi, Panging has flown the MiG 29, Hunter, Jaguar and the Sea Harrier during his time in the IAF, clocking 2,000 flying hours in Sukhois and overall 3,500 flying hours.
Service Record for Group Captain Mohanto Panging 20446 F(P) at Bharat Rakshak.com
Commissioned: 16 Dec 1989
Retired: 5 Apr 2014
Total service = 25 years
Achieved more than 3300 hours in 2010. 2000 hours on the Su-30.
So we can assume he stopped flying in Apr 2011 after he became a GC. So between 1997 and 2011, he flew 2000 hours on the Su-30, which means about 150 hours per year.
Also, a WSO will not require as much flying time as the pilot. So his actual flying time may have dropped ever since he became a WC in 2004.
So one can guesstimate he used to receive 200+ hours as a pilot on the Su-30.
Sukhoi to land at Pasighat
He has a good reason, having belonged to the "original lot" of Sukhoi pilots. "I, too, had gone to Russia to bring the first 12 Sukhois to India in 1997 and tomorrow one of those will land at my doorstep," he said. He had trained in Moscow to fly the Sukhoi. "As far as I know, there have been only three fighter pilots from Arunachal Pradesh and all are now retired," he said.
Besides the Sukhoi, Panging has flown the MiG 29, Hunter, Jaguar and the Sea Harrier during his time in the IAF, clocking 2,000 flying hours in Sukhois and overall 3,500 flying hours.
Service Record for Group Captain Mohanto Panging 20446 F(P) at Bharat Rakshak.com
Commissioned: 16 Dec 1989
Retired: 5 Apr 2014
Total service = 25 years
Achieved more than 3300 hours in 2010. 2000 hours on the Su-30.
So we can assume he stopped flying in Apr 2011 after he became a GC. So between 1997 and 2011, he flew 2000 hours on the Su-30, which means about 150 hours per year.
Also, a WSO will not require as much flying time as the pilot. So his actual flying time may have dropped ever since he became a WC in 2004.
So one can guesstimate he used to receive 200+ hours as a pilot on the Su-30.
Just to add to the above discussion, IAF squadrons are not allocated with sufficient pilots to operate all the aircraft within their disposal. A SQ of 19 Su-30 MKI have a dedicated number of aircraft that is reserved for maintenance and conversion training. The squadrons are usually provided with enough pilots to operate only 70-80 % of the aircraft under them. The aircraft scheduled for active service are rotated to distribute flight hours on each air frame and to schedule maintenance accordingly. This is done because you don't want part of your fleet to exceed FH targets for the year and be moved to short term storage like what France does. Flight scheduling is performed by considering also the maintenance/overhaul requirements, you wouldn't want several aircraft from the same SQ being due for overhaul at the same time.
However, world over the practice is just the opposite by having a pilot ratio higher than 1 to account for staff rotation, leave and training. But this is how IAF manages the current pilot shortage. Just my understanding of the current setup.
Good Day!
However, world over the practice is just the opposite by having a pilot ratio higher than 1 to account for staff rotation, leave and training. But this is how IAF manages the current pilot shortage. Just my understanding of the current setup.
Good Day!
Okay, if you must insist.
Use rationale you have just given above, extrapolate it to the number of flying hours per pilot per annum as claimed, multiply with a factor of 3, work out the airtime per aircraft.
It HAS to make sense somewhere
3 pilots to a platform is IAF requirement for operations in war. It is perfectly of sense.
Precisely, the 'sanctioned' strength can never be reached as the HR policy is so cockeyed that there is a high attrition in 10-20 years service bracket, those who have substantial experience. Also, I did point out that lesser people are joining nowadays.
Suggest, walk across o DGCA and do a quick survey of the number of hours flown by fighter pilots as they file their hours for their ATPL, it shall be very interesting.
I, of course, am willing to be wrong.