Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[Hellfire]

Service Record for Group Captain Mohanto Panging 20446 F(P) at Bharat Rakshak.com
Commissioned: 16 Dec 1989
Retired: 5 Apr 2014
Total service = 25 years

Achieved more than 3300 hours in 2010. 2000 hours on the Su-30.

Pertinent to note, he was the first batch of officers to get experience on the aircraft and was, in all probability, also responsible for training the subsequent batch of pilots. This 2000 is inclusive of his flying in Russia, which would have been extensive in order to prepare the first batch for subsequent roles in training and evaluation of pilots in India.

So we can assume he stopped flying in Apr 2011 after he became a GC.

Why? Don't Group Captains fly in India? Most of COs and nowadays Flight Commanders are Group Captains. And they need to maintain their 'currency'.

So between 1997 and 2011, he flew 2000 hours on the Su-30, which means about 150 hours per year.

For training both self and others

Also, a WSO will not require as much flying time as the pilot. So his actual flying time may have dropped ever since he became a WC in 2004.

A misplaced assumption, I assure you.

And you are talking of an aircraft which was brand new. Now extrapolate the hours onto a Mig-21 Bison, Mirage 2000 or Mig -27 UPG as also a Jaguar. Do the figures work out?

I can sit and do this all day long

Heck, this was a point of discussion somewhere, as we munched on cakes watching the Surya Kirans fly their 9 Hawks in a dazzling display

 

[RATHORE]

AFAIK, the new canopy has already been designed. Now all HAL has to do is place orders for new glass. It can all be done without any delays.

That's a big relief, thanks.

 

[R!cK]

AFAIK, the new canopy has already been designed. Now all HAL has to do is place orders for new glass. It can all be done without any delays.

It is not as easy as just designing a new canopy, a thicker canopy results in increased weight which alters the Centre of Gravity of the aircraft. The CG will need to be rebalanced and will require additional flight tests to ensure:

1. Pressurosation/durability of the new canopy
2. CG balancing
3. Flight control laws adjustment

Makes more sense to be part of Mk1A configuration as the CG is already expected to be altered with additional hardware and control laws to be altered accordingly.

Good Day!

 

[randomradio]

It is not as easy as just designing a new canopy, a thicker canopy results in increased weight which alters the Centre of Gravity of the aircraft. The CG will need to be rebalanced and will require additional flight tests to ensure:

1. Pressurosation/durability of the new canopy
2. CG balancing
3. Flight control laws adjustment

Makes more sense to be part of Mk1A configuration as the CG is already expected to be altered with additional hardware and control laws to be altered accordingly.

Good Day!

HAL says they will be introducing the new canopy on the FOC jets. So this was likely already planned long before they made it public.

 

[Hellfire]

HAL says they will be introducing the new canopy on the FOC jets. So this was likely already planned long before they made it public.

If that be the case, then the news report wherein HAL indicated that delay will occur because of the 'new demand' was their typical play at blaming IAF to cover their ineptitude somewhere else. Create an artificial problem and/or emergency and then 'solve' it

 

[randomradio]

If that be the case, then the news report wherein HAL indicated that delay will occur because of the 'new demand' was their typical play at blaming IAF to cover their ineptitude somewhere else. Create an artificial problem and/or emergency and then 'solve' it

HAL has been doing that for decades. Their main grouse is they had already paid for the glass meant for the smaller canopy, an article has pointed that out.

Even now, apparently IAF is unhappy with the Mk1A's "delivery schedule". Although we do not know what exactly they are unhappy about, but HAL says they can comfortably increase production rate to above 24 jets per year, which is more than what IAF can afford anyway. So this could be a classic case of under-promising with the intention to over-deliver. Then they can advertise that as a major achievement.

 

[Parthu]

So this could be a classic case of under-promising with the intention to over-deliver. Then they can advertise that as a major achievement.

That wouldn't be classic.

Classic would be over-promise and under-deliver.

 

[randomradio]

That wouldn't be classic.

Classic would be over-promise and under-deliver.

Point is they will use that as leverage to try and maintain monopoly, which shouldn't happen.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Delhi approaches Moscow for Sukhoi fighters

 

[randomradio]

@Falcon @vstol Jockey

I have a theory. We planned to operate 270 MKIs in 13.5 squadrons.

I don't believe that the IAF plans to raise another squadron beyond 13.5. Rather the new order for 18 jets will take care of attrition and establish the 13th squadron with full strength instead. Which means 8 or 10 jets will help raise full 14 squadrons, with the remaining 8 or 10 jets being part of attrition replacements.

 

[R!cK]

@Falcon @vstol Jockey

I have a theory. We planned to operate 270 MKIs in 13.5 squadrons.

I don't believe that the IAF plans to raise another squadron beyond 13.5. Rather the new order for 18 jets will take care of attrition and establish the 13th squadron with full strength instead. Which means 8 or 10 jets will help raise full 14 squadrons, with the remaining 8 or 10 jets being part of attrition replacements.

The initial plan was to operate 14 Squadrons.

12 SQ with 19 aircraft each
2 SQ with 20 aircraft each (Brahmos equipped)

12x19 + 2x20 + 4 attrition replacement(at time of contract) = 272 units

The same was confirmed by Ex ACM Arup Raha. The IAF currently operates 12 SQ of Sukhois. We however lost 4 additional aircraft after that including the unit lost by HAL which will be reimbursed but not built without a fresh contract.

A new contract will thus cater for 4+ attrition replacement and additional units for new SQ formation. Personally I'd expect an order for 44+ units, so that Brahmos modification is performed on new build aircraft rather than in-service aircraft. These might not be Super standard but contain incremental hardware upgrades compared to current ordered batch of Sukhois.

- Contrary to several opinions here, Mk1A order will be placed this year regardless of how successful it is as a platform. With current political situation, no government will be in position to turn down an indigenous fighter and lower budgetary allocations will ensure low opportunities for foreign fighter procurement aswell. Even IN recognises this and is desperate to make MK2 work as MRCBF is not expected to take off anytime soon.

Good Day!

 

[randomradio]

2 SQ with 20 aircraft each (Brahmos equipped)

Do we know which squadrons will get the Brahmos upgrade? Both Pune squadrons, or one in Pune and one in Chabua/Tezpur?

Personally I'd expect an order for 44+ units, so that Brahmos modification is performed on new build aircraft rather than in-service aircraft.

I would actually upgrade our oldest squadrons with Brahmos-A so that both can get eventually phased out after 20 more years of service.

The Brahmos upgrade comes with some performance degradation due to the weight increase in the fuselage. It's best to just upgrade the older aircraft instead. Once Brahmos-M comes into the picture, all MKIs can carry a greater number of a more capable missile.

Contrary to several opinions here, Mk1A order will be placed this year regardless of how successful it is as a platform. With current political situation, no government will be in position to turn down an indigenous fighter and lower budgetary allocations will ensure low opportunities for foreign fighter procurement aswell. Even IN recognises this and is desperate to make MK2 work as MRCBF is not expected to take off anytime soon.

Good Day!

The Mk1A is meant to replace the Mig-21. An AESA radar plus modern AAMs with the potential for higher sortie rates is more than enough as a Mig-21 replacement. The Mk1A is bound to be better than the Mk1, and the Mk1 itself is considered a 4th gen aircraft with its BVR capability. If you look at it this way, it's already good enough to order even without significant weight reduction.

The N-Mk2 is going to take a long time though, possibly post 2030. And the MRCBF contenders, Rafale and SH, are pointless due to the elevator limitations of both the carriers. It's better to go for 2 more squadrons of modernised Mig-29K instead. The navy should be aiming for much more capable aircraft than the Rafale or SH.

 

[sid4587]

Do we know which squadrons will get the Brahmos upgrade? Both Pune squadrons, or one in Pune and one in Chabua/Tezpur?



I would actually upgrade our oldest squadrons with Brahmos-A so that both can get eventually phased out after 20 more years of service.

The Brahmos upgrade comes with some performance degradation due to the weight increase in the fuselage. It's best to just upgrade the older aircraft instead. Once Brahmos-M comes into the picture, all MKIs can carry a greater number of a more capable missile.



The Mk1A is meant to replace the Mig-21. An AESA radar plus modern AAMs with the potential for higher sortie rates is more than enough as a Mig-21 replacement. The Mk1A is bound to be better than the Mk1, and the Mk1 itself is considered a 4th gen aircraft with its BVR capability. If you look at it this way, it's already good enough to order even without significant weight reduction.

The N-Mk2 is going to take a long time though, possibly post 2030. And the MRCBF contenders, Rafale and SH, are pointless due to the elevator limitations of both the carriers. It's better to go for 2 more squadrons of modernised Mig-29K instead. The navy should be aiming for much more capable aircraft than the Rafale or SH.

4 brahmos equipped squadron should be there in A&N/Sabang islands.

 

[R!cK]

Do we know which squadrons will get the Brahmos upgrade? Both Pune squadrons, or one in Pune and one in Chabua/Tezpur?

Initial plan was Pune + Tezpur. Then Pune + Thanjavur. Even Kalaikunda is a possibility if Thanjavur is not finalised. Not sure what's the final now. The project is a but behind schedule now and under the radar aswell.

I would actually upgrade our oldest squadrons with Brahmos-A so that both can get eventually phased out after 20 more years of service.

The Brahmos upgrade comes with some performance degradation due to the weight increase in the fuselage. It's best to just upgrade the older aircraft instead. Once Brahmos-M comes into the picture, all MKIs can carry a greater number of a more capable missile.

You have a valid point. I was just considering the cost and time taken to carry out such an extensive modification on an in service aircraft but overall your argument makes sense. Perhaps this is why IAF decided to perform the modification on older aircraft when they could easily decide to do it in new builds at that time.

The Mk1A is meant to replace the Mig-21. An AESA radar plus modern AAMs with the potential for higher sortie rates is more than enough as a Mig-21 replacement. The Mk1A is bound to be better than the Mk1, and the Mk1 itself is considered a 4th gen aircraft with its BVR capability. If you look at it this way, it's already good enough to order even without significant weight reduction.

I'm in agreement with your point. My post was in response to all the previous posts that expected Tejas program to roll down. People don't realise it's beyond a point to accept a demise of the project both politically and industrially. Only solution here is to reach a middle ground and continue improving the product gradually like every other developing nation with an active aviation project does.

The N-Mk2 is going to take a long time though, possibly post 2030. And the MRCBF contenders, Rafale and SH, are pointless due to the elevator limitations of both the carriers. It's better to go for 2 more squadrons of modernised Mig-29K instead. The navy should be aiming for much more capable aircraft than the Rafale or SH.

Honestly there is no need for IN to have more fighters before that period, they are not getting the coastal patrolling duties as previously expected and the number of carriers aren't increasing atleast until 2030 is over. Best solution is to add 1-2 SQ of Mig-29K as you suggested and pray for Rafale to win MMRCA. Then it's easier to place order for a tranche of MII Rafales towards the end of the program that will be much ahead of iAC-II commissioning.

4 brahmos equipped squadron should be there in A&N/Sabang islands.

Due to fear of incidents like Tsunami, IAF is reluctant to have combat aircraft permanently based in A&N. This was settled in UPA-II era and the solution was to have Sukhois permannently based at Thanjavur, the current government has gone 1 step ahead and made the SQ based at Kalaikunda to be responsible for A & N aswell. This meas we have 2 dedicated SQ of Sukhois at less than 1 hour distance from A&N mainland, sufficient until we add more SQ to fulfill our air defence and combat capability.

Good Day

 

[randomradio]

4 brahmos equipped squadron should be there in A&N/Sabang islands.

40 aircraft won't give us that many. But distributing 10 MKIs each into 4 squadrons can do it.

 

[randomradio]

Initial plan was Pune + Tezpur. Then Pune + Thanjavur. Even Kalaikunda is a possibility if Thanjavur is not finalised. Not sure what's the final now. The project is a but behind schedule now and under the radar aswell.

It's also possible that these 40 modified MKIs will actually be shared among multiple squadrons.

Perhaps this is why IAF decided to perform the modification on older aircraft when they could easily decide to do it in new builds at that time.

HAL wanted to build 40 new MKIs with Brahmos, but the IAF turned that down.

Honestly there is no need for IN to have more fighters before that period, they are not getting the coastal patrolling duties as previously expected and the number of carriers aren't increasing atleast until 2030 is over. Best solution is to add 1-2 SQ of Mig-29K as you suggested and pray for Rafale to win MMRCA. Then it's easier to place order for a tranche of MII Rafales towards the end of the program that will be much ahead of iAC-II commissioning.

I'd actually like to see 1 squadron of Rafale alongside the MKI in Great Nicobar.

When you say "coastal patrolling duties", are you actually referring to coast based fighters? We haven't reached a point where we can afford that yet. But I'd definitely like to see us operating some F-35Bs out of our LHDs by 2030 or so.

Due to fear of incidents like Tsunami, IAF is reluctant to have combat aircraft permanently based in A&N. This was settled in UPA-II era and the solution was to have Sukhois permannently based at Thanjavur, the current government has gone 1 step ahead and made the SQ based at Kalaikunda to be responsible for A & N aswell. This meas we have 2 SQ of Sukhois at less than 1 hour distance from A&N mainland, sufficient until we add more SQ to fulfill our air defence and combat capability.

We will see permanent presence of MKIs at Great Nicobar. A new base will be built. This is apart from Car Nicobar and Campbell Bay.

India to Base Its Fighter Jets on Andaman & Nicobar Islands in Bengal Bay

 

[R!cK]

It's also possible that these 40 modified MKIs will actually be shared among multiple squadrons.

Less likely. Logistics infrastructure wont be created at multiple locations, considering how IAF lags for the same already. It makes sense to have dedicated SQ for specialist missions much like the SFC dedicated SQ are at positioned together. These can however perform the regular air defence requirements anyway.

HAL wanted to build 40 new MKIs with Brahmos, but the IAF turned that down.

I know. But if IAF wanted the last 42 aircraft order could easily be converted to Brahmos versions since the idea was already floating at that point. They possibly decided against it considering the same point you raised.

I'd actually like to see 1 squadron of Rafale alongside the MKI in Great Nicobar.

Someday, hopefully we will live long enough to see that lol. The next 10 years wont see IAF settling their fleet shortage, so less likely we will have enough fighters to base outside mainland. But who knows.

When you say "coastal patrolling duties", are you actually referring to coast based fighters? We haven't reached a point where we can afford that yet. But I'd definitely like to see us operating some F-35Bs out of our LHDs by 2030 or so.

Yea was exactly my point. The idea way floated when the current government came in to have IN responsible for Southern air defence patrols, which was shot down by IAF as usual. With the current financial situation, less likely to change anytime soon.

We will see permanent presence of MKIs at Great Nicobar. A new base will be built. This is apart from Car Nicobar and Campbell Bay.

India to Base Its Fighter Jets on Andaman & Nicobar Islands in Bengal Bay

This is not permanent basing. Small units from Thanjavur and Kalaikunda will rotate now and then to maintain operational flexibility. Similar to the southern air defence patrol units that keeps changing every year. This is not a year round phenomenon. Usually a small contingent of 4-6 units are based at forward locations for short durations to ensure flexibility and infrastructure utilisation.

Good Day!

 

[randomradio]

Less likely. Logistics infrastructure wont be created at multiple locations, considering how IAF lags for the same already. It makes sense to have dedicated SQ for specialist missions much like the SFC dedicated SQ are at positioned together. These can however perform the regular air defence requirements anyway.

I guess if a Brahmos base is attacked, they can all blow up together.

Yea was exactly my point. The idea way floated when the current government came in to have IN responsible for Southern air defence patrols, which was shot down by IAF as usual. With the current financial situation, less likely to change anytime soon.

We will need Theatre Commands if the navy is to get some land based fighters.

This is not permanent basing. Small units from Thanjavur and Kalaikunda will rotate now and then to maintain operational flexibility. Similar to the southern air defence patrol units that keeps changing every year. This is not a year round phenomenon. Usually a small contingent of 4-6 units are based at forward locations for short durations to ensure flexibility and infrastructure utilisation.

They should do something permanent on the Islands over the next 10 years though.

 

[R!cK]

People visiting the Airshow, anything informative or interesting available about Super Sukhoi upgrade?

 

[Himanshu]

"We proceed from the fact that it will be possible to furnish Su-30MKI fighters with as many as five new BrahMos NG missiles, which are being developed for light fighter jets. We are planning that a Su-30MKI plane will be capable of carrying two missiles under each wing and one missile under the fuselage," Pathak said.

More:
Russian-made Su-30MKI fighter jets to carry five BrahMos missiles

HAL chairman: We are hoping to land a squadron worth of orders for the Su-30 MKI from the IAF. The existing facility will transform into a repair and overhaul for the existing fleet.

“We have got an official request from the Indian side to supply 18 more kits of the Su 30 MKI. This request came in January and now we are preparing our commercial offer,” Anatoly G Punchuk, Deputy Director of the Russian Federal Service for Military Technical Cooperation said.

India goes to an old friend for fighter aircraft