Sure. As per your instructions we'd discuss it only after 2030. Happy ?
Sukhoi Su-30MKI
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
Carbon composite skin would cause less bouncing and more RF absorption thereby reducing the Radar Cross Section. Plus, it should help MKI shed some weight, which in turn will increase its kinematics. So, it's worth in my book.
Plus, even if we don't change the skin, still with the help of lighter and more modern avionics CoG and CoP would definitely change. For example Bars weight is 650kgs. A new gen radar would weight much less. OLS-30 weighs around 200kgs. New gen IRST would be half in weight. So a new FBW is a must for MKI MLU, with or without the addition of Carbon Fibre skin. Period.
Replied above.
Even new engines with different weight shall warrant new FBW. There is no getting around this fact.
Su-30MKI IRST/TV camera view:
Although not as discreet in IR spectrum as Rafale but much more so than Mig-29UPG. Impressive.
Although not as discreet in IR spectrum as Rafale but much more so than Mig-29UPG. Impressive.
The upgrades will happen in tranches naturally, with new technologies being introduced with every tranche.
3 tranches of 4 squadrons each over a 15-year period makes the most sense.
3 tranches of 4 squadrons each over a 15-year period makes the most sense.
I sincerely hope we avoid this type of science project like the DARIN upgrade route we undertook for the Jaguars. While that project may have worked wonders in upgrading a FA with fairly limited capacities besides up skilling HAL & IAF teams which later stood them in good stead when they negotiated the technical package with the Russians , we can ill afford such a venture in today's day & age .
A good case in point would be why the IAF gave up on the engine upgrades of the Jaguars after pursuing the matter for more than a decade. The Jaguars are way past their shelf life & we're the only air force still flying them long after other AFs have number plated them . In any case we'd be flying the MKIs into the late 40's possibly upto the mid to late 50's too when practically every other AF including the Russians would've number plated them .
The MKIs have a limited utility in modern air warfare especially going ahead in the 2030s , mostly due to it's origin derived as it is from the Flanker family with it's own design limitations being dated as of the present what to speak of the future .
We need it upgraded in the immediate future only because it's woefully behind times as far as modern FAs go besides being our only bet against the Chinese along with the extremely limited numbere of Rafales we have . Whatever upgrades will follow the deep upgrades today during it's MLU will & should be of a limited nature purely to keep it up to date .
A good case in point would be why the IAF gave up on the engine upgrades of the Jaguars after pursuing the matter for more than a decade. The Jaguars are way past their shelf life & we're the only air force still flying them long after other AFs have number plated them . In any case we'd be flying the MKIs into the late 40's possibly upto the mid to late 50's too when practically every other AF including the Russians would've number plated them .
The MKIs have a limited utility in modern air warfare especially going ahead in the 2030s , mostly due to it's origin derived as it is from the Flanker family with it's own design limitations being dated as of the present what to speak of the future .
We need it upgraded in the immediate future only because it's woefully behind times as far as modern FAs go besides being our only bet against the Chinese along with the extremely limited numbere of Rafales we have . Whatever upgrades will follow the deep upgrades today during it's MLU will & should be of a limited nature purely to keep it up to date .
I suppose the first squadron that was updated would be already outdated by the time process is completed.
That's the idea behind the tranche-wise upgrades. While the first tranche is upgraded, the next tranche is developed.
As long as fighter jets are flying with external weapons load, MKI won't be outclassed by anything. With proper upgrades it shall serve us very well upto late 2040s if not more.
Having said that we need to start work on MKI replacement very soon. Otherwise we won't have any air dominance heavy-weight fighter jet as our lead fighter.
Medium weight planes are good, but nothing replaces heavy-weight fighters for air-dominance role, IMO.
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MKI with full carbon-composite skin, GaN AESA radar, QWIP based dual-band IRST, SPECTRA like EW system and if possibly new engines is going to be fiend of the sky.
If we replace the Titanium and Aluminium skin with CFC then its RCS is going to drop several times. DRDO has made a break-through in CFC material(as part of AMCA programne). The CFC absorbs all kinds of RF waves and returns and spikes are much less.
As Far as I know, Those air-inlets of Su-30 Engines are major contributor of RCS.
F-35 & F-22 are being integrated with external pylons. So is AMCA & I'm referring to both the versions . Proper upgrades is the key word here . Now try to seek it's compatibility with what I've cited earlier namely design limitations . Hint : read #2111 of this thread .
I very much doubt the next ASF would be a heavy fighter . I could be wrong but the way UCAVs are evolving we could see a heavy calibre in the UCAV category or it would be medium calibre FAs & UCAVs all the way along with lighter versions of both.
I'm all for a SPECTRA like EW system not just in the MKIs but other FAs in our inventory as well if we have indeed mastered this system .
The USAF has developed haemorrhoids maintaining it's fleet of Raptors & now Lightnings expending a good chunk of it's budget on them . Ditto for all those AFs which have opted for the Lightnings in spite of which those Lightnings spend more time on the ground undergoing all kinds of maintenance after per hour of flight time , burning a hole in the budget of their respective AFs .
IAF has specifically refused to order more MKIs ( the original plan was to go in for 350-375 nos ) precisely because it eats up a good chunk of their OpEx . What you're proposing vis a vis replacement of Al & Ti with RM coating , RF absorbent Carbon composites (?) will sink the IAF . It's ok to have a wish list . Let it not cloud your judgement about whether it's achievable & if yes , desirable purely from the financial PoV . Then there's it's operational efficiency to be considered too .
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Yes, true. But we already use RAM there and Su-30MKI's RCS is much less than what people would assume. Even HVT sir in one of his tweets said that MKI in air to air load is picked up by the radar at the same time as a light fighter would with full load and drop tanks.
Plus we can always put a radar-blocker like what Boeing did with Super Hornet in MKI MLU.
Yes, but they still have integral IWB for stealth mode which Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen, Su-35, F-15EX, F-16V, F/A-18E/F will never have. So MKI remains relevant as long as the above are. With proper upgrades, of course.
NGAD is much bigger ASF than anything USAF has got till date. FCAS is bigger than Rafale. Tempest is bigger than Typhoon. You need endurance in your primary Air Superiority Fighter. That warrants a heavy-weight fighter.
Our EW is going to be superior to the French. Already we are on a very high level. So, yes, sooner or later all our Fighter Jets(especially high-end ones) are going to have SPECTRA like or even better EW.
Quality comes at a price. Air Dominance is anything but cheap.
The original plan was just of 230 jets. 40 were later ordered as MRCA was delayed and as Brahmos carriers.
What I have listed above is neither hypothetical, far-fetched or beyond our capabilities/budget. We've already made a breakthrough in carbon-fiber tech with LCA program.
With AMCA program we've made even a bigger breakthrough. With ultra wide band radio frequency absorbing CFC skin. If IAF decides to put this on MKI then it shall happen and MKI's RCS would reduce by multiple times over now. It should be done if we want MKI to remain competent against J-20 and other emerging threats.
Look at this:
You change the metallic skin of MKI with this and it would become semi-stealthy.
About this material, check this tweet:
What skin are we using in the LCA Mk-2 ? Is this the same skin you've written about in #2114 ? @Rajput Lion
Usage in AMCA and TEDBF is confirmed. LCA-MK2 should definitely have this. Why not use it when we already have this tech? Tejas already uses plenty of CFC. MK2 should use this one I think.
This CFC RAM is very similar to F-35's RAM which also has ultra band absorbent properties. It can absorb EM waves from 0.1MHz to 60GHz and is effective against all Bands of RF spectrum(according to LM patents).
But even with RAM a plane can't be stealthy as it requires shaping plus IWB. But usage of such CFC in skin should drop the RCS drastically over conventional 4th gen fighters.
I just want Uttam + Indian missiles & bombs as soon as possible.. ( seems plan is to begin upgrade in 5 years )
Deep upgrade means , atleast first tranche will retire before it can get upgraded.
We cannot do with 10 + years without upgrade.
Considering LCA mk2, Amca & MRFA all will take similar time lines.
LOL! you should be called Resident Optimist 2. If you know what I mean
You need to have solid evidence to backup these claims.
Do you have evidence?
No. 1 is my favourite poster here, so I don't mind be called no. 2
However, I don't post anything optimistic or pessimistic. I understand if my posts give such impression. But I only talk about two things:
1. Things that have already happened(that I have got evidence).
2. Things that are about to happen(that I have some solid reasons to believe).
Nothing more, nothing less, Brother!
Go and research about D-29 and D-Jag. You'll find the answers. Now our scientists have got access to the fabled SPECTRA. Soon most of our Front line fighters will have an analogue or even better.
A fiend only against 4th gen jets, mostly. If the MKI cannot defeat missiles fired at it, then it's gonna be useless, otherwise it will still be somewhat useful.