Tejas Mk2 (Medium Weight Fighter) - News and discussions

Not just a card board presentation.

Plans on how they will reverse the compromises made on TEDBF platform to unleash it's full potential as a Airforce asset. How they will remove the over engineering, etc.

The only reason Eurofighter is the 2nd choice for IAF, is because Super Hornet is a Naval fighter inherently.
 
Ankit Kumar said:
I hope that happens, but it has a severe constraint. IAF (even if I am pessimist) will sign MRFA by 2025 end.

ADA/HAL guys will need to present a complete proposal before that on completing TEDBF as OCRA.
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LCA MK2, yet to make even its first flight. There are reports of some of MK2 tech will go to TEDBF. Separate flight evaluation also needs to be done on TEDBF, so realistically speaking ORCA is minimum 10-12 years away from first development trials, if we sanction it today. If HAL/ADA is proposing IAF as an alternative to mrfa, then they are trying to scamming IAF, and if IAF beleive ORCA I will tell they are the dumbest in this country.
 
Jersey27 said:
Lol... Did the French military "lose its sharpness" by sticking to the Rafale instead of buying the F-35 from USA?
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Yeas, but gap between Rafale & F35 is so narrow that it makes little effects of French airforce. Also they had the luxury of NATO's security umbrella, neither they are bordering with any enemy country ,and the only threat they are facing is Russia. You may not agree,but deep in our heart e all now know what Russia can do in battlefield. That's nothe case of India,we have two nuclear tipped enemy sitting next to our wall. Unlike Russia, Pakistan is a battle hardened military power, unlike Russia, Chinese have acces to modern military equipment. Both these are not having any scarcity of regular military personal too.
Ankit Kumar said:
Cancelling either will require the other orders to go up to 18 squadrons
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You will not by two Eicher min truck instead of one Ashok Leyland,when the requirement was one Ashok Leyland,right? The thing like endurance , pickup cannot be replicated with two mini truck.
 
Hydra said:
You will not by two Eicher min truck instead of one Ashok Leyland,when the requirement was one Ashok Leyland,right? The thing like endurance , pickup cannot be replicated with two mini truck.
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That surely is one argument.

Then again we will have to see the cost difference and capability difference between the two.

My personal opinion long has been that we should go for import of 2 more Rafale squadrons. We can manage it financially and will ensure our numbers don't fall anymore in the interim.

A local assembly along with ToT for a 4.5 gen Western platform imo is cost prohibitive.

My opinion is go for 2 more Rafale squadrons and order an additional Tejas Mk1A squadron.

Put the remaining resources to pay the French for Engine JV, and work upon Tejas MK2 and AMCA for the time being.
 
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Yes I think in the end it will be another 36 G2G deal in the pipeline, but we have to see whether they go for it approved pre 2024 election (just AoN, not the rest of procedure) or post it till they come back in power. The way I see it, MoD & Modi both have set a mandate of net export matching net import by 2025-30 period for a minimum & and they also want exports to go past import figure, ie net exporter and also save forex. Complete political agenda oriented move as this is going to be one of BJP election propaganda.
So at this stage, any big import like jets, both mrfa & navy jets, will completely ruin this, Gov will end up screwing its own mandate. You either buy a whole lot of jets from HAL to balance between desi buy & forex spend, ie mk1a/mk2 all will happen post 2026 so won't effect this strategy in short term to be used in election. Hence mrfa will keep getting delayed till at least 2026 even though IAF keep pushing for it at every opportunity. Push n shove game between Gov-IAF going on. We can see geopolitics dictated us & China resolving the border dispute temporarily. So the immediate need for critical yet very expensive buys is balanced on this, ie postponed for now.
The forex situation itself is another reason why mrfa won't proceed in short term. RBI selling ~ 13-15billion each month in spot market to keep inflation away & keep rupee under 80 mark. Compared to April May , forex shrunk from 600B to 550B now. Now every defence deal will probably get paid in India rupee aka domestic buy. I won't be surprised if gov in near future ask companies that you only can get our deal if you accept part payment in rupee (for off the shelf purchase) and you also need to go thru make in india route(for indian partner jv project).
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
My opinion is go for 2 more Rafale squadrons and order an additional Tejas Mk1A squadron.

Put the remaining resources to pay the French for Engine JV, and work upon Tejas MK2 and AMCA for the time being.
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Why more mk1a? With current orders we get to 6 squadrons of it, one rather underpowered Mig 21 replacement that is good enough for CAP & scrambling against intrusion. 2 each for western & eastern patrols & 2Sq in reserve imo this is enough. It would be a sin to ask an underpowered single engine jet with small payload ability to do multi role a2g fighting besides its job. Like sending khotta habildars to do spec ops.
The real fighter jet is mk2 with properly 100kn powered engine & avionics, fuel, payload capacity to match multirole requirement. HAL & ADA should be making every effort to apply all matured tech & capability into Mk2 properly so it can be trusted enough like the mirages. Mk2 should be the jet that is like foot soldier, with 15+ squadrons ordered.
AMCA, in its current form, it is possible in mk1 it is more of 4.5gen plane with stealth shape and 5th gen advanced avionics. in mk2 Amca will be proper 5+ gen jet. But in both cases, the procurement cost will be damn high irrespective of it doing stealth or non stealth missions. So we have to consider a numeric model where for 1 amca we need 2 tejas mk2. If we are able to afford 6-8sqn of amca then to sustain that number, double the amount of mk2 must be inducted.
Rest we supplement via foreign buy. Frankly I am surprised we are not making a twin engine 4.5 gen jet because the world is moving to stealth jets, so we are directly moving into stealth twin engine configuration because we have no time and not enough money.
 
marich01 said:
Why more mk1a? With current orders we get to 6 squadrons of it, one rather underpowered Mig 21 replacement that is good enough for CAP & scrambling against intrusion. 2 each for western & eastern patrols & 2Sq in reserve imo this is enough. It would be a sin to ask an underpowered single engine jet with small payload ability to do multi role a2g fighting besides its job. Like sending khotta habildars to do spec ops.
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Its payload capacity is more than Mig27 for A2G missions and range/payload more than Mig23 for A2A mission. Its capabilities are also better than DARIN 2 airframes by a long shot.

It has availability rates which match that of Civil Aviation. And reasonable operational and acquisition cost.

We will be retiring 3 Jaguar squadrons between 2024 and 2030.
marich01 said:
The real fighter jet is mk2 with properly 100kn powered engine & avionics, fuel, payload capacity to match multirole requirement. HAL & ADA should be making every effort to apply all matured tech & capability into Mk2 properly so it can be trusted enough like the mirages. Mk2 should be the jet that is like foot soldier, with 15+ squadrons ordered.
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Any new design will take a minimum of 5 years for testing and certification. IAF will be lucky to have the first MK2 in service by 2029-30.

And it will be fine replacement for 3 Mig29UPG, 3 Mirage 2000 and 3 Jaguar DARIN 3 squadrons over a decade.
 
marich01 said:
AMCA, in its current form, it is possible in mk1 it is more of 4.5gen plane with stealth shape and 5th gen advanced avionics. in mk2 Amca will be proper 5+ gen jet. But in both cases, the procurement cost will be damn high irrespective of it doing stealth or non stealth missions. So we have to consider a numeric model where for 1 amca we need 2 tejas mk2. If we are able to afford 6-8sqn of amca then to sustain that number, double the amount of mk2 must be inducted.
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Shouldn't think a lot about that option. That will not be as quick as the Tejas MK2 will.

Just ensure the resources are always given and committed for that project.
 
Ankit Kumar said:
Any new design will take a minimum of 5 years for testing and certification. IAF will be lucky to have the first MK2 in service by 2029-30.

And it will be fine replacement for 3 Mig29UPG, 3 Mirage 2000 and 3 Jaguar DARIN 3 squadrons over a decade.
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Yeah I am suggesting for beyond 2028-30, will HAL entirely close mk1a production line right after the current order done? I would guess some orders can arrive in 2030 or after. The point is to match economy of scale we will need single & twin engine 4gen planes that should be coming from our domestic industry. Even with huge orders Amca or rafales will never be possible to induct in enough numbers available to us. mk1a, mk2 & twin engine variant (IAF version of tedbf/orca) 4.5 gen planes are here to stay for some more time till at least 2050. I am hoping tejas airframes are capable of holding out for 20-25 years at minimum given how long mig 21 is around.
We are just getting the mirages 2nd hand, how long the spares can extend availability, 2-5 years I'd guess.
 
marich01 said:
Yeah I am suggesting for beyond 2028-30, will HAL entirely close mk1a production line right after the current order done? I would guess some orders can arrive in 2030 or after. The point is to match economy of scale we will need single & twin engine 4gen planes that should be coming from our domestic industry. Even with huge orders Amca or rafales will never be possible to induct in enough numbers available to us. mk1a, mk2 & twin engine variant (IAF version of tedbf/orca) 4.5 gen planes are here to stay for some more time till at least 2050. I am hoping tejas airframes are capable of holding out for 20-25 years at minimum given how long mig 21 is around.
We are just getting the mirages 2nd hand, how long the spares can extend availability, 2-5 years I'd guess.
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19 airframes is the capacity currently. That gives us the cushion to add 1 more squadron worth orders for MK1.

Once production stops in 2028-29, the MK1A facility can be converted into MK2.

Additional possible capability is in the Nashik line.
 
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19 really? I thought it was 8, new facility is yet to fully start production.

Saw HT posted article on Mk2 yesterday.

www.hindustantimes.com

LCA Mk-2 set to have heavier payload capacity, better range

The Cabinet Committee on Security, headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, had on August 31 cleared the much-awaited project for the development of LCA Mk-2 that is expected to form an important element of future air combat.
www.hindustantimes.com www.hindustantimes.com
 
marich01 said:
19 really? I thought it was 8, new facility is yet to fully start production.

Saw HT posted article on Mk2 yesterday.

www.hindustantimes.com

LCA Mk-2 set to have heavier payload capacity, better range

The Cabinet Committee on Security, headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, had on August 31 cleared the much-awaited project for the development of LCA Mk-2 that is expected to form an important element of future air combat.
www.hindustantimes.com www.hindustantimes.com
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Original production line, converted HAL Kiran Hangers and the new one.

Lack of orders mean that full capacity is not being utilised.
marich01 said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1571706898725871617

https://twitter.com/x/status/1571794224365936640
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Wrong.

Egypt wants to procure a LIFT platform to replace their K8 trainers.
 
Ankit Kumar said:
That surely is one argument.

Then again we will have to see the cost difference and capability difference between the two.

My personal opinion long has been that we should go for import of 2 more Rafale squadrons. We can manage it financially and will ensure our numbers don't fall anymore in the interim.

A local assembly along with ToT for a 4.5 gen Western platform imo is cost prohibitive.

My opinion is go for 2 more Rafale squadrons and order an additional Tejas Mk1A squadron.

Put the remaining resources to pay the French for Engine JV, and work upon Tejas MK2 and AMCA for the time being.
Click to expand...
In my calculation,4 squadrons minimum is required against Pakistan,5 squadrons is required against China & 1 permanent at Delhi during peace time itself. During two front scenario 6-7 squadrons will be required.
So total 4 squadrons of Rafale is as good as not having Rafale at all.
 
Hydra said:
In my calculation,4 squadrons minimum is required against Pakistan,5 squadrons is required against China & 1 permanent at Delhi during peace time itself. During two front scenario 6-7 squadrons will be required.
So total 4 squadrons of Rafale is as good as not having Rafale at all.
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Tejas MK1A will not be very effective against China. So 4-5 squadrons along western borders.

And then MK2 as it starts to come will be deployed everywhere.

We need a new white paper on defence.
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
Tejas MK1A will not be very effective against China. So 4-5 squadrons along western borders.

And then MK2 as it starts to come will be deployed everywhere.

We need a new white paper on defence.
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Lca mk1A wing area is as big as MWF making it suitable for high altitude missions lifting weight s as much as MWF.

Sensors, aesa radars, EW pod..

I don't think IAF will have any aircraft barring Rafale to field there.
 
Ankit Kumar said:
Tejas MK1A will not be very effective against China. So 4-5 squadrons along western borders.

And then MK2 as it starts to come will be deployed everywhere.

We need a new white paper on defence.
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I was talking about Rafale or mmrca, not Tejas.
 
Screenshot 2022-10-03 at 12.58.39 AM.png
 
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