US - Iran Flare Up

War is not a one way street. Take a look at a satellite image of US air bases in the middle east like Al udeid. Many US aircraft are out in the open and not in hardened shelters. The defence systems are mostly point defence and are not tailor made to handle medium range ballistic missiles. As demonstrated by the abqaiq attack, US defence analysts are stunned at the accuracy of the attacks. Iran has thousands of missiles including ballistic and cruise, and many of them will get through causing military deaths and damage to assets.. Missiles from Iranian proxies will cause significant damage too. It will not be without costs for the US..
The SAM radars were pointing the wrong way in that attack (towards Yemen), they won't be at US bases. Lots of ballistic missiles were fired during Desert Storm and nearly all were shot down, plus Iran has a limited supply and can only produce them so fast. The US can fire cruise missiles forever. I would expect very little damage compared to the complete obliteration of Iran's navy and air force, which will reduce their potency in the region for some time.

And yes, war is a 2-way street, which is why they should not have started one.
 
That's not possible.. There will come a time when America will have to choose between a kinetic response to Iranian attacks on Saudi/UAE or vacate it's bases in the middle east, and hence give up on an entire region. Because, there is only so much pain that UAE or Saudis can bear, if all they see is a future with more Iranian attacks on their infrastructure. If the US does not retaliate militarily after the next few big attacks ( which will happen ), then, Iran will offer the Arabs a choice ( reminds me of Don Corleone ) that the attacks will stop, if the US is kicked out of all its bases in the UAE/Saudi/Kuwait.. And the Arabs will kick Uncle Sam out, if all they see in their future is a combination of sanctions and military inaction...
As of now, initial reports coming out of Washington is of enhanced sanctions. Moreover, with the exit of Bolton & his team and with Trump showing some flexibility on Macron's urging towards Iran, why did the Iranians jump the gun is something which isn't quite explained. The downside of all this is if Trump doesn't actually have a Plan B having unilaterally exited the 5+1 agreement with Iran expecting them to succumb to US pressure for more concessions.
 
Then Iran will definitely be attacked. The only motivation Trump has not to go to war is economic damage and election promises, but if serious economic damage is done via the targeting of oil tankers anyway, then Iran will get pummelled, because if the economy loses, you lose elections regardless.

Iran's ability to interfere with shipping depends on its navy, and that can be wiped in a single day without ever setting foot on Iranian soil or even flying in Iranian airspace, hence minimal casualties, if any. That would be followed by a naval blockade and a no fly zone over the Strait of Hormuz for Iranian jets.

So some people are very naive in their thinking that America would have to get bogged down in another Iraq-like scenario.
There's the larger ME region and Iran's proxies there who could completely paralyse all oil production and shipment if the US annihilates the Iranian Navy or even it's strategic assets like it's CM / BM & N enrichment program. The Iranians have little to lose which is why they're indulging in brinkmanship. Besides, why would the US unilaterally take on Iran while the Europeans appear as bystanders? We already have the example of Israel fighting a grim battle of attrition with the Hezbollah since the past 3 decades. Now it's the KSA + UAE alliance against the Houthis coming a cropper.
 
There's the larger ME region and Iran's proxies there who could completely paralyse all oil production and shipment if the US annihilates the Iranian Navy or even it's strategic assets like it's CM / BM & N enrichment program. The Iranians have little to lose which is why they're indulging in brinkmanship. Besides, why would the US unilaterally take on Iran while the Europeans appear as bystanders? We already have the example of Israel fighting a grim battle of attrition with the Hezbollah since the past 3 decades. Now it's the KSA + UAE alliance against the Houthis coming a cropper.
Who? Yemen and Syria? They're bogged-down in their own turmoil. The Iranians have a lot to lose, given that they're already suffering economically. It will take them a long time to replace the lost assets and they'll lose any power in the region.

Quite simple really. Iran has attacked a sovereign country, and that country has the right to act to defend itself from attack under international law, with or without UN approval. And if they ask for US help in that defence, then that defence is also legal. Iran just allowed themselves to attacked legally under international law.

The problem is that Iran itself hasn't suffered enough attrition during these battles.
 
The SAM radars were pointing the wrong way in that attack
Modern radars have 360 degree coverage... It might be that iranian cruise missiles and drones avoided saudi/American AD bubbles in Kuwait and KSA.. by navigating around them..

Lots of ballistic missiles were fired during Desert Storm and nearly all were shot down
Only 88 missiles were fired by Saddam during desert storm. Iran can fire many hundreds of missiles. Also the scuds were short range missiles which could be hit by patriot point defence systems. Iran can fire medium range missiles in an elevated trajectory at US bases and personnel... Also the accuracy of Iranian missiles is better than ancient scuds.. US will still be able to prevail in an all-out shooting match... but will definitely bleed in the process..
 
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Who? Yemen and Syria? They're bogged-down in their own turmoil. The Iranians have a lot to lose, given that they're already suffering economically. It will take them a long time to replace the lost assets and they'll lose any power in the region.

Quite simple really. Iran has attacked a sovereign country, and that country has the right to act to defend itself from attack under international law, with or without UN approval. And if they ask for US help in that defence, then that defence is also legal. Iran just allowed themselves to attacked legally under international law.

The problem is that Iran itself hasn't suffered enough attrition during these battles.
In case you haven't noticed, the Houthis in Yemen have successfully tied down significant numbers of KSA & UAE's armed forces. Iran's presence in Syria, the Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Hamas in Gaza tie down the Israelis. Then there are Iranian proxies in Iraq to be considered.

Further, left to themselves the UAE + KSA wouldn't dare take on the Iranians single handedly. All 3 parties know the ground realities enough to make Iran consider the strike against KSA as we've seen. Which brings us to the US. Let's see if Trump is just a windbag with his bark worse than his bite or does he actually mean business. The Iranians obviously have considered Trump to be the former.
 
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The SAM radars were pointing the wrong way in that attack (towards Yemen), they won't be at US bases. Lots of ballistic missiles were fired during Desert Storm and nearly all were shot down, plus Iran has a limited supply and can only produce them so fast. The US can fire cruise missiles forever. I would expect very little damage compared to the complete obliteration of Iran's navy and air force, which will reduce their potency in the region for some time.

And yes, war is a 2-way street, which is why they should not have started one.

:LOL::LOL::LOL:


Activities of the House Committee on Government Operations
One Hundred Second Congress
First and Second Sessions, 1991 - 1992
Report 102-1086, pages 179- 188

Performance of the Patriot Missile in the Gulf War.


a. Summary.-The Patriot missile system was not the spectacular success in the Persian Gulf War that the American public was led to believe. There is little evidence to prove that the Patriot hit more than a few Scud missiles launched by Iraq during the Gulf War, and there are some doubts about even these engagements. The public and the Congress were misled by definitive statements of success issued by administration and Raytheon representatives during and after the war. It is probable that many of the individuals giving such statements, including the President of the United States and Gen. H. Norman Schwarzkopf, were not aware at the time that the claims of success were false.

American soldiers lives could be unnecessarily endangered if they are deployed in future conflicts based on inaccurate assessments of the Patriot's capabilities. They may depend on Patriot battalions destroying almost all of the enemy missiles, as the Army now claims, when the actual defensive capabilities may mean that it could actually miss almost all of the threatening missiles. Realistic tests are needed to ascertain the true capabilities of this system.

American troops deployed in the Gulf War performed courageously by all accounts. The Patriot crews, in particular, conducted their defensive operations admirably, despite being under the constant threat of chemical and biological attack. The investigation found no fault with the performance of the troops operating the Patriot system. The incorrect initial reports of Scud destruction appear to have been caused primarily by the confusion of war, misleading indicators of success from the Patriot's computer, and the absence of rigorous and systematic ground damage searches in Saudi Arabia.

Official assessments of the number of Scuds destroyed by the Patriot missile system in the war have fallen from 100 percent during the war, to 96 percent in testimony to Congress after the war, to 80 percent, 70 percent and, currently, the Army believes that as many as 52 percent of the Scuds were destroyed overall but it only has high confidence that the Patriot destroyed 25 percent of the Scud warheads it targeted.

Independent review of the evidence in support of the Army claims reveals that, using the Army's own methodology and evidence, a strong case can be made that Patriots hit only 9 percent of the Scud warheads engaged, and there are serious questions about these few hits. It is possible that the Patriots hit more than 9 percent, however, the evidence supporting these claims is even weaker.

The speed of the Scuds, the limitations of the Patriot missile system, and the confusion and targeting difficulties caused by the breakup of the Scud missile as it reentered the atmosphere seem to have contributed to the high failure rate.

The Patriot is not designed to explode upon impact with its target, thus, the explosions in the sky were a misleading indicator of success for both troops and the public. Nor can the system determine if the Patriot missile actually hit its intended target. It can only determine that it detonated near a point in space where it calculated the target should be, sending back a "probable kill" indicator, or that the missile missed and, therefore, detonated to self-destruct.

However, these indicators are inaccurate. Many of the targets turned out to be debris from the poorly designed Scuds as they broke up in flight. At least 45 percent of the 158 Patriots launched in the war were launched against debris or false targets.

Even for those warheads correctly targeted, the Patriot must detonate when it is within a few meters of the Scud to have a high probability of destroying the warhead, according to the Army. However, the Patriot's fuse could detonate at up to six times the required miss distance, resulting in an extremely low or no probability of kill, yet the computer would still record the engagement as a probable kill, according to the Army.

In addition to the probable kill indicator and other tracking data, the Army assessment relies heavily on reports of ground damage. In every case were a warhead kill is claimed, the absence of ground damage is cited as evidence of Patriot success. However, intelligence officials that collected many of these reports from military personnel in the war say that they are unverified, contradictory, erroneous and misleading. Many of the Scuds claimed as warhead kills landed in the desert, the sea or sparsely populated areas.

Finally, some Scuds that were not engaged by Patriots exhibited characteristics identical to those cited as evidence of Patriot interceptions. The Scuds flew in at high speeds, broke up into debris, and upon impact the warheads were found to be duds or only partially burned. In cases where Patriots had attempted to intercept such a Scud, this behavior would be cited as crucial evidence in scoring the engagement as a successful kill.

The Army evaluation of the Patriot's performance was performed by a small team consisting of nine officials from the Patriot Program Office and related Army offices and others from the prime contractor on the program, the Raytheon Co. In addition, as of the April subcommittee hearing, the Army had paid Raytheon $520,000 to provide analysis of Patriot performance in the war. On average, between three and nine Raytheon personnel supported the Army in the post-war performance analysis and approximately 12 Raytheon personnel provided support to the Army in Saudi Arabia and Israel in analyzing Patriot performance and operations.

An oversight hearing was held by the Legislation and National Security Subcommittee on April 7, 1992. Testimony was presented by expert analysts and administration representatives, including: Steven Hildreth, senior analyst, Congressional Research Service; Richard Davis, Director, Army Issues, General Accounting Office; Reuven Pedatzur, Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies, Tel Aviv; Theodore Postal, Ph.D., Center for International Studies, MIT; Charles Zraket, former president, MITRE Corp.; Peter Zimmerman, Center for Strategic and International Studies; Gen. Jay Garner, U.S. Army accompanied by Gen. Robert Drolet, Col. Jim Gustine, Col. David Heebner, Col. Skip Garrett, Chief Warrant Officer Stewart and Staff Sergeant Lopez; and James W. Carter, vice president, missile systems division, Raytheon Co., accompanied by Stephen Stanvick and Robert Stein.

The subcommittee investigation was conducted with the extensive assistance of nonpartisan analysts from the General Accounting Office, the Congressional Research Service, and the Office of Technology Assessment. Subcommittee investigators conducted extensive interviews with numerous experts as well as officials from the Patriot Program Office in Hunstville, AL and in the Pentagon. Investigators reviewed volumes of classified material concerning the performance of the Patriot missile in the Gulf War.

This material reviewed included:



  • Three consecutive versions of the Patriot Program Manager's "Assessment of Patriot Performance in Israel and Saudi Arabia;"
  • "Analysis of Damage Caused by Scud Missile Ground Impacts in South West Asia," Ballistics Research Laboratory;
  • "Analysis of Video Tapes to Assess Patriot Effectiveness," Army Materiel Test and Evaluation Directorate
  • "Summary of SSM Attacks on Israel During Desert Storm," Israeli Air Force;
  • "Iraqi SRBM Launch Activity During Desert Storm," Missile and Space Intelligence Center
  • "Summary of Patriot-Scud Engagements" Training and Doctrine Command Systems Manager [TSM]
  • Experiment 2 digital engagement data
  • " Evaluation of the Army Report 'Analysis of Video Tapes to Assess Patriot Effectiveness" Dated 31 March 1992," George N. Lewis and Theodore A. Postol, MIT
  • and "Report on 'Patriot Effectiveness,"' Peter D. Zimmerman, CSIS.
Investigators also reviewed over 140 video tapes of media broadcasts provided the subcommittee by the Raytheon Co., and classified Israeli precision and infrared video tapes.

Testimony presented by expert witnesses from the General Accounting Office concluded that the Army's assessment of Patriot effectiveness could not be supported by the data that the Army said it used to arrive at that assessment. GAO specifically concluded that the two principal supporting documents in the Army analysis had serious limitations and did not support the assessment.

A senior analyst from the Congressional Research Service concurred with the GAO testimony and found further that based on the Army's own analysis and methodology, one Scud warhead may have been destroyed by a Patriot missile. :)

Army officials said their original assessment was based primarily on two reports: a classified Ballistic Research Laboratory [BRL] report on Patriot effectiveness; and the Army's classified TSM (Training and Doctrine Command Systems Manager) summary of Patriot-Scud engagements. The General Accounting Office examined both of the primary reports in detail. GAO concluded that these reports simply did not support the Army's stated claims of success. GAO analysts testified:

"The conclusion we reached was that the data the Army used to support their original assessment-that the Patriot's performance in the Gulf was about 70 percent successful-just could not be supported by the data that they said they used to come up with that assessment."​
The GAO specifically critiqued the TSM Summary:

"Our review of the principal supporting documents showed the data had serious limitations and did not support the assessment ...."
Our review of the [TSM] spreadsheet and several binders of supporting notes showed that the spreadsheet was actually an inaccurate summary of information obtained through telephone calls to various units in the Gulf, Army staff offices in the Pentagon, or the Patriot Project Office. In addition, many gaps and inconsistencies existed between the data presented on the spreadsheet and the supporting records. For example, there were several instances in which Patriot operators reporteddestroying more Scud warheads than there were missiles launched. In other instances, the supporting telephone record showed the Scud was diverted away from a protected area, but the spreadsheet showed the Scud's warhead was destroyed. In some cases, there were no records supporting the spreadsheet entries."
"The System Manager told us that he was not surprised that we found gaps and inconsistencies in the data. He said the spreadsheet was not intended to be used as an analysis of Patriot's performance. He said it was intended as a tool to keep himself and others at the Air Defense School abreast of events in the Gulf; therefore, he made no attempt to analyze and refine the data."​
The GAO also appraised the BRL report and noted several serious limitations:

The report included information on only about one-third of the Saudi engagements, although the Project Manager's assessment cited it as a source for all engagements.
The report assumed that Patriot destroyed Scud warheads in the air unless warhead damage was found on the ground. This assumption is improper because some units did not attempt to locate damage. The report's analysis of identified damage was limited because
(1) it was based on the efforts of one engineer working in Saudi Arabia for 5 days in February 1991 and 19 days in March 1991,
(2) it relied heavily on photographs and interviews with military personnel assigned to the Patriot units, and
(3) site visits were always made days or weeks after an impact when craters had often been filled and missile debris removed.​
Congressional Research Service Senior Analyst Steven Hildreth also criticized the accuracy of the Army report in his testimony before the subcommittee. He concluded:

" Questions can be raised about the thoroughness of the BRL report. In one engagement, for example, the Army uses the BRL report to show there was no ground damage reported. U.S. and Saudi officials. however, re ported finding Scud and Patriot debris in a crater after an attack. In another case, Saudi military officers confirmed damage from a Scud attack, and journalists reported seeing a Scud missile or fuel tank lying in the street. The Army relies on the BRL report to say there was no damage reported."​
Reuven Pedatzur, defense affairs analyst with Ha'aretz Daily and the Jaffee Center for International Affairs at Tel Aviv University, testified that Israeli military officers credit the Patriot with hitting only one Scud warhead, with perhaps two others partially damaged:

" During the war a team of Israeli experts, with the participation of representatives from Raytheon and from the U.S. Army, undertook a comprehensive study of the Patriot's intercept attempts.... It was possible to identify those features of the Patriot system which hampered its attempts to intercept the al-Husseins, such as an inability to distinguish between warhead and debris, and the ineffectiveness of its fuse at the high closing speeds which developed between the al-Husseins and the Patriots...."
" During the first day in which the Patriots were operated in Israel, the batteries reported "hits" against the al-Hussein warheads. But in fact the Iraqi missiles were not hit, continued on their route and exploded upon ground impact. Obviously, the reports emanating from the Patriot batteries were at variance with reality...."
" The reports of successful hits received from the Patriot batteries were found to derive only from the fact that the Patriot warheads were activated precisely where and when intended...."​
The video recordings showed clearly that the Patriots were not hitting the Iraqi missiles' warheads, in some cases they were missing by hundreds of meters.

A panel of expert witnesses disagreed over the reliability of video footage of Patriot engagements that seemed to show Patriots consistently missing the Scuds at which they were aimed. Dr. Theodore Postol of MIT explained:

"The Patriot can be thought of as a platform which carries a shotgun that sprays pellets at the target it is to destroy ... if the Patriot fires its pellets at a range much greater than 5 to 10 meters from its target, it will be increasingly unlikely that even one pellet will hit the target. Thus, a 30 meter miss distance is nine times less likely to damage the target than a 10 meter miss and a 100 meter miss is 100 times less likely to damage the target. "
"This means that if miss distances much larger than 100 meters are observed, the result will be a near zero probability that even one pellet from the interceptor will have hit the target."​
Dr. Postol contended that his analysis of video tapes of roughly 25 Patriot intercept attempts showed "all but 2 to 4 intercept attempts are hundreds of meters or more."

Dr. Peter Zimmerman and Dr. Charles Zraket disagreed. They presented charts and video tapes prepared by the Raytheon Co. to argue that in the 1/30 of second it takes to go from one still frame of a video tape to the next, the Scud would travel 35 meters at full speed. Thus, Dr. Zimmerman said:

"Video images will always show a late detonation; it is in the nature of the recording process. Television will always show the Patriot detonating behind the Scud. As a result, videotape will nearly always mislead the unwary analyst into perceiving a clean intercept as a miss with the Patriot warhead detonating too late, behind the Scud warhead which is its target. "​
Dr. Zraket asserted that the ground damage studies "would provide the most valid indirect method of assessing results." He testified:

"Simple calculations indicate that the 500 to 600 pounds of high explosive in the Scud warhead would be sufficient ... to demolish virtually all types of residential and much commercial construction. When Scuds explode in populated areas such devastation is unmistakable, and the lack of such devastation associated with the identified impact of a Scud warhead is conclusive evidence that the warhead did not explode upon impact ...."
" There is a common sense argument that ... if you don't have a lot of catastrophic damage in an area say in Israel or in eastern Saudi Arabia, when something like over 30 Scuds fell in each of the inhabited areas and almost 50 were fired into each area, then common sense tells you that something is going on that is preventing that Catastrophic damage."​
General Garner testified that since the subcommittee staff investigation began the Army officials responsible for the analysis had redone their evaluation. The new analysis was presented in general terms to the subcommittee at the hearing. The supporting documents were provided to the subcommittee after the hearing. The revised Army analysis would no longer rely on the two reports that had been the foundation of their original appraisal. The Army would no longer rely on the TSM report and would supplement the BRL report with other ground damage information. The Army also testified that as a result of its new analysis, it had adjusted the claims of Patriot success. The new analysis concluded:

The Patriot had delivered "a miracle performance."
The Army knows the Patriot was operationally successful, but did not have scientific proof of that success.
The data collection effort was the best the Army could do; it was a war, not a test range.​
The Army's new effectiveness assessment was that the Patriot had hit, though not necessarily destroyed, 40 percent of the Scuds it engaged in Israel and 70 percent in Saudi Arabia.

Of the Scuds intercepted, the Army had high confidence the Patriot had destroyed 25 percent of the warheads.

Examination of the new analysis indicates that although improved in clarity and format, the revised assessment continues to suffer from many of the same deficiencies as the original assessment. The Army assessment does not support the overall effectiveness claim or the specific claims of the Scud warheads destroyed. The strongest evidence in the Army assessment indicates that the 158 Patriots fired during the war destroyed a few Scud warheads, although there are doubts about these.

Hearing.-"Oversight Hearing on the Performance of the Patriot Missile- in the Gulf War," April 7, 1992.
 
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In case you haven't noticed, the Houthis in Yemen have successfully tied down significant numbers of KSA & UAE's armed forces. Iran's presence in Syria, the Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Hamas in Gaza tie down the Israelis. Then there are Iranian proxies in Iraq to be considered.

Further, left to themselves the UAE + KSA wouldn't dare take on the Iranians single handedly. All 3 parties know the ground realities enough to make Iran consider the strike against KSA as we've seen. Which brings us to the US. Let's see if Trump is just a windbag with his bark worse than his bite or does he actually mean business. The Iranians obviously have considered Trump to be the former.
The Houthis have successfully used human shields combined with complaints to the UN about the resulting consequences of that. 75 years ago we weeded out a superpower from entrenched position all across Europe inside 11 months. The difference was called area bombing. This new style of war is honestly tedious and it doesn't really protect civilians at all and it makes wars last forever. Give the civilians a month to leave Houthi areas and then flatten them from the air, then move in and take them. If anyone fires a shot while you're moving in, withdraw and give the area another 48 hours of saturation bombardment. The last step is to be repeated until successful.

The UN will briefly cry their eyes out, but the war will be over and there will be no more casualties.
 
:LOL::LOL::LOL:


Activities of the House Committee on Government Operations
One Hundred Second Congress
First and Second Sessions, 1991 - 1992
Report 102-1086, pages 179- 188
Performance of the Patriot Missile in the Gulf War.


a. Summary.-The Patriot missile system was not the spectacular success in the Persian Gulf War that the American public was led to believe. There is little evidence to prove that the Patriot hit more than a few Scud missiles launched by Iraq during the Gulf War, and there are some doubts about even these engagements. The public and the Congress were misled by definitive statements of success issued by administration and Raytheon representatives during and after the war. It is probable that many of the individuals giving such statements, including the President of the United States and Gen. H. Norman Schwarzkopf, were not aware at the time that the claims of success were false.

American soldiers lives could be unnecessarily endangered if they are deployed in future conflicts based on inaccurate assessments of the Patriot's capabilities. They may depend on Patriot battalions destroying almost all of the enemy missiles, as the Army now claims, when the actual defensive capabilities may mean that it could actually miss almost all of the threatening missiles. Realistic tests are needed to ascertain the true capabilities of this system.

American troops deployed in the Gulf War performed courageously by all accounts. The Patriot crews, in particular, conducted their defensive operations admirably, despite being under the constant threat of chemical and biological attack. The investigation found no fault with the performance of the troops operating the Patriot system. The incorrect initial reports of Scud destruction appear to have been caused primarily by the confusion of war, misleading indicators of success from the Patriot's computer, and the absence of rigorous and systematic ground damage searches in Saudi Arabia.

Official assessments of the number of Scuds destroyed by the Patriot missile system in the war have fallen from 100 percent during the war, to 96 percent in testimony to Congress after the war, to 80 percent, 70 percent and, currently, the Army believes that as many as 52 percent of the Scuds were destroyed overall but it only has high confidence that the Patriot destroyed 25 percent of the Scud warheads it targeted.

Independent review of the evidence in support of the Army claims reveals that, using the Army's own methodology and evidence, a strong case can be made that Patriots hit only 9 percent of the Scud warheads engaged, and there are serious questions about these few hits. It is possible that the Patriots hit more than 9 percent, however, the evidence supporting these claims is even weaker.

The speed of the Scuds, the limitations of the Patriot missile system, and the confusion and targeting difficulties caused by the breakup of the Scud missile as it reentered the atmosphere seem to have contributed to the high failure rate.

The Patriot is not designed to explode upon impact with its target, thus, the explosions in the sky were a misleading indicator of success for both troops and the public. Nor can the system determine if the Patriot missile actually hit its intended target. It can only determine that it detonated near a point in space where it calculated the target should be, sending back a "probable kill" indicator, or that the missile missed and, therefore, detonated to self-destruct.

However, these indicators are inaccurate. Many of the targets turned out to be debris from the poorly designed Scuds as they broke up in flight. At least 45 percent of the 158 Patriots launched in the war were launched against debris or false targets.

Even for those warheads correctly targeted, the Patriot must detonate when it is within a few meters of the Scud to have a high probability of destroying the warhead, according to the Army. However, the Patriot's fuse could detonate at up to six times the required miss distance, resulting in an extremely low or no probability of kill, yet the computer would still record the engagement as a probable kill, according to the Army.

In addition to the probable kill indicator and other tracking data, the Army assessment relies heavily on reports of ground damage. In every case were a warhead kill is claimed, the absence of ground damage is cited as evidence of Patriot success. However, intelligence officials that collected many of these reports from military personnel in the war say that they are unverified, contradictory, erroneous and misleading. Many of the Scuds claimed as warhead kills landed in the desert, the sea or sparsely populated areas.

Finally, some Scuds that were not engaged by Patriots exhibited characteristics identical to those cited as evidence of Patriot interceptions. The Scuds flew in at high speeds, broke up into debris, and upon impact the warheads were found to be duds or only partially burned. In cases where Patriots had attempted to intercept such a Scud, this behavior would be cited as crucial evidence in scoring the engagement as a successful kill.

The Army evaluation of the Patriot's performance was performed by a small team consisting of nine officials from the Patriot Program Office and related Army offices and others from the prime contractor on the program, the Raytheon Co. In addition, as of the April subcommittee hearing, the Army had paid Raytheon $520,000 to provide analysis of Patriot performance in the war. On average, between three and nine Raytheon personnel supported the Army in the post-war performance analysis and approximately 12 Raytheon personnel provided support to the Army in Saudi Arabia and Israel in analyzing Patriot performance and operations.

An oversight hearing was held by the Legislation and National Security Subcommittee on April 7, 1992. Testimony was presented by expert analysts and administration representatives, including: Steven Hildreth, senior analyst, Congressional Research Service; Richard Davis, Director, Army Issues, General Accounting Office; Reuven Pedatzur, Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies, Tel Aviv; Theodore Postal, Ph.D., Center for International Studies, MIT; Charles Zraket, former president, MITRE Corp.; Peter Zimmerman, Center for Strategic and International Studies; Gen. Jay Garner, U.S. Army accompanied by Gen. Robert Drolet, Col. Jim Gustine, Col. David Heebner, Col. Skip Garrett, Chief Warrant Officer Stewart and Staff Sergeant Lopez; and James W. Carter, vice president, missile systems division, Raytheon Co., accompanied by Stephen Stanvick and Robert Stein.

The subcommittee investigation was conducted with the extensive assistance of nonpartisan analysts from the General Accounting Office, the Congressional Research Service, and the Office of Technology Assessment. Subcommittee investigators conducted extensive interviews with numerous experts as well as officials from the Patriot Program Office in Hunstville, AL and in the Pentagon. Investigators reviewed volumes of classified material concerning the performance of the Patriot missile in the Gulf War.

This material reviewed included:



  • Three consecutive versions of the Patriot Program Manager's "Assessment of Patriot Performance in Israel and Saudi Arabia;"
  • "Analysis of Damage Caused by Scud Missile Ground Impacts in South West Asia," Ballistics Research Laboratory;
  • "Analysis of Video Tapes to Assess Patriot Effectiveness," Army Materiel Test and Evaluation Directorate
  • "Summary of SSM Attacks on Israel During Desert Storm," Israeli Air Force;
  • "Iraqi SRBM Launch Activity During Desert Storm," Missile and Space Intelligence Center
  • "Summary of Patriot-Scud Engagements" Training and Doctrine Command Systems Manager [TSM]
  • Experiment 2 digital engagement data
  • " Evaluation of the Army Report 'Analysis of Video Tapes to Assess Patriot Effectiveness" Dated 31 March 1992," George N. Lewis and Theodore A. Postol, MIT
  • and "Report on 'Patriot Effectiveness,"' Peter D. Zimmerman, CSIS.
Investigators also reviewed over 140 video tapes of media broadcasts provided the subcommittee by the Raytheon Co., and classified Israeli precision and infrared video tapes.

Testimony presented by expert witnesses from the General Accounting Office concluded that the Army's assessment of Patriot effectiveness could not be supported by the data that the Army said it used to arrive at that assessment. GAO specifically concluded that the two principal supporting documents in the Army analysis had serious limitations and did not support the assessment.

A senior analyst from the Congressional Research Service concurred with the GAO testimony and found further that based on the Army's own analysis and methodology, one Scud warhead may have been destroyed by a Patriot missile. :)

Army officials said their original assessment was based primarily on two reports: a classified Ballistic Research Laboratory [BRL] report on Patriot effectiveness; and the Army's classified TSM (Training and Doctrine Command Systems Manager) summary of Patriot-Scud engagements. The General Accounting Office examined both of the primary reports in detail. GAO concluded that these reports simply did not support the Army's stated claims of success. GAO analysts testified:

"The conclusion we reached was that the data the Army used to support their original assessment-that the Patriot's performance in the Gulf was about 70 percent successful-just could not be supported by the data that they said they used to come up with that assessment."​
The GAO specifically critiqued the TSM Summary:

"Our review of the principal supporting documents showed the data had serious limitations and did not support the assessment ...."​

Our review of the [TSM] spreadsheet and several binders of supporting notes showed that the spreadsheet was actually an inaccurate summary of information obtained through telephone calls to various units in the Gulf, Army staff offices in the Pentagon, or the Patriot Project Office. In addition, many gaps and inconsistencies existed between the data presented on the spreadsheet and the supporting records. For example, there were several instances in which Patriot operators reporteddestroying more Scud warheads than there were missiles launched. In other instances, the supporting telephone record showed the Scud was diverted away from a protected area, but the spreadsheet showed the Scud's warhead was destroyed. In some cases, there were no records supporting the spreadsheet entries."​

"The System Manager told us that he was not surprised that we found gaps and inconsistencies in the data. He said the spreadsheet was not intended to be used as an analysis of Patriot's performance. He said it was intended as a tool to keep himself and others at the Air Defense School abreast of events in the Gulf; therefore, he made no attempt to analyze and refine the data."​
The GAO also appraised the BRL report and noted several serious limitations:

The report included information on only about one-third of the Saudi engagements, although the Project Manager's assessment cited it as a source for all engagements.​

The report assumed that Patriot destroyed Scud warheads in the air unless warhead damage was found on the ground. This assumption is improper because some units did not attempt to locate damage. The report's analysis of identified damage was limited because​

(1) it was based on the efforts of one engineer working in Saudi Arabia for 5 days in February 1991 and 19 days in March 1991,​

(2) it relied heavily on photographs and interviews with military personnel assigned to the Patriot units, and​

(3) site visits were always made days or weeks after an impact when craters had often been filled and missile debris removed.​
Congressional Research Service Senior Analyst Steven Hildreth also criticized the accuracy of the Army report in his testimony before the subcommittee. He concluded:

" Questions can be raised about the thoroughness of the BRL report. In one engagement, for example, the Army uses the BRL report to show there was no ground damage reported. U.S. and Saudi officials. however, re ported finding Scud and Patriot debris in a crater after an attack. In another case, Saudi military officers confirmed damage from a Scud attack, and journalists reported seeing a Scud missile or fuel tank lying in the street. The Army relies on the BRL report to say there was no damage reported."​
Reuven Pedatzur, defense affairs analyst with Ha'aretz Daily and the Jaffee Center for International Affairs at Tel Aviv University, testified that Israeli military officers credit the Patriot with hitting only one Scud warhead, with perhaps two others partially damaged:

" During the war a team of Israeli experts, with the participation of representatives from Raytheon and from the U.S. Army, undertook a comprehensive study of the Patriot's intercept attempts.... It was possible to identify those features of the Patriot system which hampered its attempts to intercept the al-Husseins, such as an inability to distinguish between warhead and debris, and the ineffectiveness of its fuse at the high closing speeds which developed between the al-Husseins and the Patriots...."​

" During the first day in which the Patriots were operated in Israel, the batteries reported "hits" against the al-Hussein warheads. But in fact the Iraqi missiles were not hit, continued on their route and exploded upon ground impact. Obviously, the reports emanating from the Patriot batteries were at variance with reality...."​

" The reports of successful hits received from the Patriot batteries were found to derive only from the fact that the Patriot warheads were activated precisely where and when intended...."​
The video recordings showed clearly that the Patriots were not hitting the Iraqi missiles' warheads, in some cases they were missing by hundreds of meters.

A panel of expert witnesses disagreed over the reliability of video footage of Patriot engagements that seemed to show Patriots consistently missing the Scuds at which they were aimed. Dr. Theodore Postol of MIT explained:

"The Patriot can be thought of as a platform which carries a shotgun that sprays pellets at the target it is to destroy ... if the Patriot fires its pellets at a range much greater than 5 to 10 meters from its target, it will be increasingly unlikely that even one pellet will hit the target. Thus, a 30 meter miss distance is nine times less likely to damage the target than a 10 meter miss and a 100 meter miss is 100 times less likely to damage the target. "​

"This means that if miss distances much larger than 100 meters are observed, the result will be a near zero probability that even one pellet from the interceptor will have hit the target."​
Dr. Postol contended that his analysis of video tapes of roughly 25 Patriot intercept attempts showed "all but 2 to 4 intercept attempts are hundreds of meters or more."

Dr. Peter Zimmerman and Dr. Charles Zraket disagreed. They presented charts and video tapes prepared by the Raytheon Co. to argue that in the 1/30 of second it takes to go from one still frame of a video tape to the next, the Scud would travel 35 meters at full speed. Thus, Dr. Zimmerman said:

"Video images will always show a late detonation; it is in the nature of the recording process. Television will always show the Patriot detonating behind the Scud. As a result, videotape will nearly always mislead the unwary analyst into perceiving a clean intercept as a miss with the Patriot warhead detonating too late, behind the Scud warhead which is its target. "​
Dr. Zraket asserted that the ground damage studies "would provide the most valid indirect method of assessing results." He testified:

"Simple calculations indicate that the 500 to 600 pounds of high explosive in the Scud warhead would be sufficient ... to demolish virtually all types of residential and much commercial construction. When Scuds explode in populated areas such devastation is unmistakable, and the lack of such devastation associated with the identified impact of a Scud warhead is conclusive evidence that the warhead did not explode upon impact ...."​

" There is a common sense argument that ... if you don't have a lot of catastrophic damage in an area say in Israel or in eastern Saudi Arabia, when something like over 30 Scuds fell in each of the inhabited areas and almost 50 were fired into each area, then common sense tells you that something is going on that is preventing that Catastrophic damage."​
General Garner testified that since the subcommittee staff investigation began the Army officials responsible for the analysis had redone their evaluation. The new analysis was presented in general terms to the subcommittee at the hearing. The supporting documents were provided to the subcommittee after the hearing. The revised Army analysis would no longer rely on the two reports that had been the foundation of their original appraisal. The Army would no longer rely on the TSM report and would supplement the BRL report with other ground damage information. The Army also testified that as a result of its new analysis, it had adjusted the claims of Patriot success. The new analysis concluded:

The Patriot had delivered "a miracle performance."​

The Army knows the Patriot was operationally successful, but did not have scientific proof of that success.​

The data collection effort was the best the Army could do; it was a war, not a test range.​
The Army's new effectiveness assessment was that the Patriot had hit, though not necessarily destroyed, 40 percent of the Scuds it engaged in Israel and 70 percent in Saudi Arabia.

Of the Scuds intercepted, the Army had high confidence the Patriot had destroyed 25 percent of the warheads.

Examination of the new analysis indicates that although improved in clarity and format, the revised assessment continues to suffer from many of the same deficiencies as the original assessment. The Army assessment does not support the overall effectiveness claim or the specific claims of the Scud warheads destroyed. The strongest evidence in the Army assessment indicates that the 158 Patriots fired during the war destroyed a few Scud warheads, although there are doubts about these.

Hearing.-"Oversight Hearing on the Performance of the Patriot Missile- in the Gulf War," April 7, 1992.
How many Scuds were fired and how many hit? Either the Patriot worked or most of the Scuds didn't. And I should point out that the ability to hit ballistic missiles has been rushed into service only months before that war started. US ABM technology is now taking out ICBM RVs. KSA targets are a different matter because the user play a factor, but US bases are guarded by Aegis Ashore, THAAD and PAC-3 MSE. Iran would have to use a lot of missiles to get through that triple-layer defence shield. Iran can't hit jack sh1t wrt US bases. And for every missile they land, they'll lose two dozen naval vessels and aircraft, as well as the cost of all the missiles that missed.
 
Give the civilians a month to leave Houthi areas and then flatten them from the air, then move in and take them. If anyone fires a shot while you're moving in, withdraw and give the area another 48 hours of saturation bombardment. The last step is to be repeated until successful.
Wow.. your version of warfare is so clean , bomb from the air and then move in with nothing to oppose you... The US literally bombed Iwo Jima to hell and then sent it's troops, but still lost 7000 soldiers. Further, the incompetence of Saudi tank crews and infantry against Houthis is there for all to see..
There is no way that US can ensure that only Iranian blood is shed.. Have you even seen the satellite images of the punctured domes at abqaiq.. Every hole is at the exact same spot. US was lucky during desert storm that it was only their side that managed to do precision strikes. The House armed services committee members are now more worried about the safety of American soldiers in these middle eastern bases... than about striking Iran... Quite a turn of events i will say.. lol ..
 
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Modern radars have 360 degree coverage... It might be that iranian cruise missiles and drones avoided saudi/American AD bubbles in Kuwait and KSA.. by navigating around them..


Only 88 missiles were fired by Saddam during desert storm. Iran can fire many hundreds of missiles. Also the scuds were short range missiles which could be hit by patriot point defence systems. Iran can fire medium range missiles in an elevated trajectory at US bases and personnel... Also the accuracy of Iranian missiles is better than ancient scuds.. US will still be able to prevail in an all-out shooting match... but will definitely bleed in the process..
The Patriot ones are static not spinning. They only cover 360deg if you don't have them all facing one direction. User error.

Ancient Scud vs ancient Patriot that was only upgraded with ABM capability in a rush between August 1990 and January 1991. US bases would be guarded by Aegis Ashore, Aegis cruisers, THAAD and Patriot PAC-3 MSE, the first two of which have a minimum of IRBM capability with initial ICBM capability and PAC-3 has MRBM capability.

For every missile they fire they'll lose more ships and aircraft as well as the cost of those missiles.
 
Wow.. your version of warfare is so clean , bomb from the air and then move in with nothing to oppose you... The US literally bombed Iwo Jima to hell and then sent it's troops, but still lost 7000 soldiers. Further, the incompetence of Saudi tank crews and infantry against Houthis is there for all to see..
There is no way that US can ensure that only Iranian blood is shed.. Have you even seen the satellite images of the punctured domes at abqaiq.. Every hole is at the exact same spot. US was lucky during desert storm that it was only their side that managed to do precision strikes. The House armed services committee members are now more worried about the safety of American soldiers in these middle eastern bases... than about striking Iran... Quite a turn of events i will say.. lol ..
Iwo Jima took 5 weeks, considerably better than 5 years.

Iran has theoretical capabilities but little war-fighting experience. The US knows how to cripple their entire command infrastructure inside 24 hours and have their fighter pilots defecting to Iraq after their buddies have been taken out by ghost missiles appearing from nowhere while their radar screens have pictures of geese and Bart Simpson on them... quite a turnaround from Desert Storm.
 
Wow.. your version of warfare is so clean , bomb from the air and then move in with nothing to oppose you... The US literally bombed Iwo Jima to hell and then sent it's troops, but still lost 7000 soldiers. Further, the incompetence of Saudi tank crews and infantry against Houthis is there for all to see..
There is no way that US can ensure that only Iranian blood is shed.. Have you even seen the satellite images of the punctured domes at abqaiq.. Every hole is at the exact same spot. US was lucky during desert storm that it was only their side that managed to do precision strikes. The House armed services committee members are now more worried about the safety of American soldiers in these middle eastern bases... than about striking Iran... Quite a turn of events i will say.. lol ..

Iran can't fight the US with technology.

All they can do is force the US into a ridiculously endless insurgency after the US has conquered Iran.
 
Iran can't fight the US with technology.

All they can do is force the US into a ridiculously endless insurgency after the US has conquered Iran.
My whole point is the US should be ready to take casualties. If the US is ready then they can kick Iran back couple of decades.. Iran's only strength to hit US forces in any significant way is their missile force..and this without the US trying to invade Iran.. Forget the insurgency, even conquering a vast and mountainous country like Iran would cause thousands of casualties.. with the supply lines across the vast landscape being relentlessly targeted by Iranians.. The US atmost will wage an air war against Iran. But, first they must strengthen their air defences in KSA, Kuwait and UAE.
 
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How many Scuds were fired and how many hit? Either the Patriot worked or most of the Scuds didn't. And I should point out that the ability to hit ballistic missiles has been rushed into service only months before that war started. US ABM technology is now taking out ICBM RVs. KSA targets are a different matter because the user play a factor, but US bases are guarded by Aegis Ashore, THAAD and PAC-3 MSE. Iran would have to use a lot of missiles to get through that triple-layer defence shield. Iran can't hit jack sh1t wrt US bases. And for every missile they land, they'll lose two dozen naval vessels and aircraft, as well as the cost of all the missiles that missed.
I think Iran could sink a carrier.
 
US bases would be guarded by Aegis Ashore, Aegis cruisers, THAAD and Patriot PAC-3 MSE
I don't think all US bases in middle east have THAAD deployed. Assuming THAAD was deployed, then where were the patriot radars and AN/TPY-2 radars in Kuwait pointing towards.. Not Yemen i presume.. Assuming a networked air defence systems, why was not even one missile shot down?
 
I think Iran could sink a carrier.

It will be a funny scene. If a carrier sinks in the Persian Gulf, it will still be sticking out of the water since the sea has such a shallow depth.

But I think the USN will operate their carriers from the Arabian Sea, and will be practically invincible when up against Iranian capability. They lack an air force.

What the Iranians should do is buy 40 upgraded Su-30SMs for now and then license produce the PAK FA. This will ensure their safety against American carriers.
 
I don't think all US bases in middle east have THAAD deployed. Assuming THAAD was deployed, then where were the patriot radars and AN/TPY-2 radars in Kuwait pointing towards.. Not Yemen i presume.. Assuming a networked air defence systems, why was not even one missile shot down?
Not all have Aegis but all have THAAD and if the US plans on striking Iran it can ship in THAAD by C-5 or other.

The Patriots in KSA were KSA operated, completely different thing. They are not linked with US-operated systems, just like Russian systems in Syria are not linked with Syrian systems.
 
I think Iran could sink a carrier.
No need to put a carrier in range even. Their longest range missile is 360km and subs will be hunted to hell and back.

Also, it takes a surprising number of direct hits to sink a carrier. It takes a minimum of 4 Russian Shkval torpedoes for instance. AShMs it can take tons of and good luck getting an Iranian jet within firing range.