Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
Bas bhi karo maamu. IPL starts from today. It's much much more entertaining than PSL. Pleaj enjoy it. You won't see such a galaxy of talent elsewhere. Pleaj clean your hard drive of all such files pertaining to the 27th Feb incident.We concede the F-16 was saved by Rouhani forces. No, it's not the Shia leader from Iran. For that would start a fresh controversy here. But djinns & other such forces who only abound in Pakistan. Now, stop boring us, will you.
As per subtitles Indian intruder was "retreating" "North".
After you cross LoC the only thing North is KPK and Afghanistan, how you "retreat" north then?
TBH I haven't used my brain on this.... As it is not worth it..... Any way good observation... The reply would be the engagement happened with in Indian side.....
The one in which I drew the air combat geometry.
Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16
@Shajida Khan I excuse, I have to clarify my point of view here as most seem to have misunderstood it. I can understand why.
@Star Wars, @nair, @randomradio here's the deal:
1. Most broken-up parts of 1x R-73 and 1x R-77 of the starboard side have been recovered in RELATIVELY better conditions, while few burnt-up parts of 1x R-73 (TVC fused to pylon, seeker in the same wreckage) and 1x R-77 (TVC unit, part of casing) of the port side have been recovered in worse conditions. Don't believe me, kindly verify the displayed parts for yourself from this video:
The whole of point of this narrative is that crucial parts of all 4x missiles were found in the MiG-21 Bison wreckage. It doesn't matters if the warhead is missing from 1x R-73, I'm pretty sure it can't fly without its TVC section. Unless Abhi's Bison had a FIFTH missile, or Pakistan Army immediately planted those missile parts in the wreckage...it is evident that he didn't launch any missiles from his aircraft. It is very peculiar that members here believe that Pakistan Army can fabricate the evidence, but the same cunning Pakistan Army did not fabricate the missing pieces of 1x R-73. The answer is simple, PA displayed what was found to challenge IAF's narrative of Abhinandhan shooting down a PAF aircraft...nothing more.
2. This does NOT prove that a Pakistani dual-seat aircraft did or didn't go down over LoC on February 27th. In case if it was a PAF aircraft, it is absolutely possible that some other IAF aircraft shot it down. It is also possible that it was subject to friendly fire. It is also possible that it was an IAF aircraft. Unless the wreckage of the said dual-seat aircraft is found publicly or a third party verifies, it cannot be conclusively proven which aircraft it was or who did it belong to.
My personal hunch remains with PAF, now leaning towards a Mirage-III, as it was a Mirage-III strike package which launched and guided the H-4 SOWs. Previously until the H-4 SFM casings were publicly found in Bhimber, I personally believed an F-16B/D to be the prime candidate since it is the ideal aircraft to both guide and launch LGBs using the Sniper pod.
3. There is a potentially new angle emerging to this skirmish. Reportedly, PAF also utilized a Dassault Falcon DA-20 Electronic Warfare Aircraft, from the No. 24 "Blinders" Squadron during the strike on February 27th. It has the reported capability of communications jamming, radar jamming and radar spoofing.
3A. Considering the MiG-21 tactics displayed during Cope India exercises, is it possible that Abhinandhan was flying 'blind' (i.e. with his radar turned off), being vectored by his GCI or the Phalcon? Furthermore, is it possible that his communications and data-link were jammed by the DA-20, leading to him turning on his radar and painting himself all over, and resultantly being shot down? This might explain the RoE violation thing, as he might be flying completely on his own, found a target and went after it.
However we also have reports of Abhinandhan being in contact with his controller until the last moment, so I'm not sure if we can even consider this as a possibility.
3B. Coming back to the employment of DA-20 and its radar spoofing capability, IAF believes to have shot down the F-16 based on the claim that IAF had recorded electronic signatures of the F-16s (i.e. the Phalcon recorded an F-16 blip disappearing). Is it possible that the DA-20 was spoofing the signature of an F-16, which disappeared promptly? However this does not explain the 2x additional ejections.
OTOH, it seems like PAF brought its A-game to the party, utilizing top of the line equipment (BVR fighters, Stand-off PGMs, Saab-2000 AEW&C, DA-20 EW). Considering a future conflict, whether this was the best way of doing things or not (given the Phalcon was prowling around), is up for debate.
A tale of untruths and innuendo by Major Gaurav Arya and Major Surendra Poonia - Alt News
And yes, some of us ARE asking about the chutes and the injured pilot(s), with varied levels of success. Don't let your frustration cover the fact that I've expressed my views regarding the pilots issue since the beginning. I do hope that the truth comes out soon, irrespective of which side it benefits.
@Star Wars, @nair, @randomradio here's the deal:
1. Most broken-up parts of 1x R-73 and 1x R-77 of the starboard side have been recovered in RELATIVELY better conditions, while few burnt-up parts of 1x R-73 (TVC fused to pylon, seeker in the same wreckage) and 1x R-77 (TVC unit, part of casing) of the port side have been recovered in worse conditions. Don't believe me, kindly verify the displayed parts for yourself from this video:
2. This does NOT prove that a Pakistani dual-seat aircraft did or didn't go down over LoC on February 27th. In case if it was a PAF aircraft, it is absolutely possible that some other IAF aircraft shot it down. It is also possible that it was subject to friendly fire. It is also possible that it was an IAF aircraft. Unless the wreckage of the said dual-seat aircraft is found publicly or a third party verifies, it cannot be conclusively proven which aircraft it was or who did it belong to.
My personal hunch remains with PAF, now leaning towards a Mirage-III, as it was a Mirage-III strike package which launched and guided the H-4 SOWs. Previously until the H-4 SFM casings were publicly found in Bhimber, I personally believed an F-16B/D to be the prime candidate since it is the ideal aircraft to both guide and launch LGBs using the Sniper pod.
3. There is a potentially new angle emerging to this skirmish. Reportedly, PAF also utilized a Dassault Falcon DA-20 Electronic Warfare Aircraft, from the No. 24 "Blinders" Squadron during the strike on February 27th. It has the reported capability of communications jamming, radar jamming and radar spoofing.
3A. Considering the MiG-21 tactics displayed during Cope India exercises, is it possible that Abhinandhan was flying 'blind' (i.e. with his radar turned off), being vectored by his GCI or the Phalcon? Furthermore, is it possible that his communications and data-link were jammed by the DA-20, leading to him turning on his radar and painting himself all over, and resultantly being shot down? This might explain the RoE violation thing, as he might be flying completely on his own, found a target and went after it.
However we also have reports of Abhinandhan being in contact with his controller until the last moment, so I'm not sure if we can even consider this as a possibility.
3B. Coming back to the employment of DA-20 and its radar spoofing capability, IAF believes to have shot down the F-16 based on the claim that IAF had recorded electronic signatures of the F-16s (i.e. the Phalcon recorded an F-16 blip disappearing). Is it possible that the DA-20 was spoofing the signature of an F-16, which disappeared promptly? However this does not explain the 2x additional ejections.
OTOH, it seems like PAF brought its A-game to the party, utilizing top of the line equipment (BVR fighters, Stand-off PGMs, Saab-2000 AEW&C, DA-20 EW). Considering a future conflict, whether this was the best way of doing things or not (given the Phalcon was prowling around), is up for debate.
I'm not in the business of baiting or trolling, unless provoked in an all-knowing overconfident manner. Argue rationally, with facts, and I'm game...otherwise its just not worth it. Regarding your 'kabbadi' comment, if you've actually read my posts elsewhere, I thrash fanboys irrespective of the side of the border they're on. These days its a bit hard to do, since everyone is an expert and I provide input only where necessary. Regarding the resemblance of the forum, its already too late...we're all cut out from the same cloth, it shouldn't be surprising to see fanboys counting bodies in hundreds and pelting laughable theories.
A tale of untruths and innuendo by Major Gaurav Arya and Major Surendra Poonia - Alt News
I don't think I personally have any credibility to begin with, I don't belong to the GoP or any entity of the Pakistani military. And please, I didn't figure anything out, the military presented the evidence (although unofficially), I just cross-referenced it.
And yes, some of us ARE asking about the chutes and the injured pilot(s), with varied levels of success. Don't let your frustration cover the fact that I've expressed my views regarding the pilots issue since the beginning. I do hope that the truth comes out soon, irrespective of which side it benefits.
Well I understand what you are saying here..... and agree to this point..... Well as @Falcon said it was admist in fog of war.... which had at least 36 aircrafts involved (MI 17 not included).....The theory of 2 IAF aircraft down doesn't fit, as the pilots landed across and Pakistan can call Indian bluff any day (even now, atleast 1 pilot (other than Abhinandan) is still believed to be alive....Even if you look.... current attempt is to prove Abhinandan did not fire... If this is the case, It will be difficult to explain later....
I am sure both the sides are sharing half truths...... One day the truth will be out.....
India is not speaking lies here. We asked for only Wg. Cdr. had there been anyother pilot with them, by now we would escalated to full blown war. With Modi as PM, there will be no more Capt. kalias.
Frankly, I haven't seen members here post figures running in hundreds for either the PA or for the Expendables. Most of the debate here is furiously on the no of casualties exacted and why hadn't the GoI released proof of the Balakote & other strikes. I will still attach more credibility to what's posted here by a known fanboy / troll than to what's posted in PDF wherein such trolls / fanboys are tolerated and deviant / abusive behavior against Indian member encouraged. Which isn't the case here.
As far as the news about those fake videos about SSG training being circulated under the garb of torture inflicted by the PA on the Baloch resistance goes, they've been debunked here by Falcon and a few others long ago.
It also amuses me to see a Pakistani citizen decry Indian media when it suits them and quote selectively from it when they wish to. Please go through the India Today site where they've elaborately detailed the Balkote strikes and it's aftermath. They'd have a lot you'd vehemently disagree with.
Since the evidence lined up by you isn't convincing beyond a pale of doubt, let's agree to disagree till such time as fresh evidence emerges viz a Pentagon report on the status of no of F-16's in Pakistan or something like that. Else We could argue on it till the cows come home and still be no closer to the conclusion than we were at the beginning.
And my frustration is your perception. Don't let that cloud your judgement or let it. Up to to you.
Some grumpy Retd. Officer 10 years down the line in Pak will write a book on the matter. Then we will know the truth.
Until then, everyone will keep guessing. IAF is just far more credible due to its candid nature on aircraft losses as compared to PAF.
IAF did bid its time to get their revenge on Pak for Kalia's/Ajay Ahuja's treatment. Atlantique was the result. IAF got the last laugh then, they will get the last laugh now as well.
Martyr Sqn. Ldr. Ajay Ahuja was 66th course Delta squadron. He lived in a room across my room and was our Academics Captain in the squadron.
If an F-16 was killed by an R-73, then it can either be fired from Abhinandan's jet or his wingman's. Or else there may have been some other Indian aircraft in the mix as well.
If it wasn't an Indian missile, then it was an own goal. Either an AMRAAM or a SAM.
Or the F-16 crashed on its own.
Anyway, I doubt an ECM can replicate a crashing fighter jet. Also, at such short distances, the Phalcon will even be able to see the wreckage, also the entire journey from medium altitude to when it hit the ground. So the DA-20 spoofing the Phalcon to such a degree as you mentioned is impossible. Even if terrain obstructed the wreckage, you can be sure the IAF has reconned the area, so they wouldn't talk about a crashed F-16 without actual proof of it having happened.
The issue is, TVC is burnt and broken and destroyed. It is impossible to ascertain that TVC is from R-73. Or if it is from the Mig-21 wreckage. Interestingly Seeker survives unburnt. Revisit my post and see what are my objections. Also, length and width of R-73 is way different than R-77. In your display they look way too similar.
We haven't see that. We have seen the pieces but we have no way of knowing that they came from the wreckage. Not to mention it took so long for Pakistan to release these videos.