Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16

The Deterrent said:
Sir, you know very well that bringing Israel into every discussion is a sort of national hobby of ours. Please derive only amusement from such claims.


Sir, do let me know when you get your hands on either a piece of F-16 wreckage or its tail number or the name of the downed pilot. IIRC, DM Nirmala Sitharaman knows the name of the said pilot. Why bother going round and round in circles of claims and counter-claims? Just ask her. Perhaps the IAF intelligence can also help you in this regard.

Regarding the awards on claimed kill, as I said before, PAF also has electronic confirmation (unreleased to public) of target blip intercepted by the AMRAAM. However it is not a confirmed kill, because no confirmation in terms of wreckage/footage exists. Perhaps @panzerdad can verify: A kill is confirmed only when there is HUD cam footage or wreckage is found afterwards. Yet W/C Abhinandan is being awarded, and so are the Mirage-2000 air-strike pilots. Tells you a lot about it, doesn't it?

Put simply, its a war of narratives. :)



Sir, as you correctly noted, SPICE has multiple guidance sensors. EO seeker (both autonomous and MIL), GPS and INS. In all the accounts presented by the journalists on behalf of IAF sources, it has been maintained that SPICE-2000s were launched in GPS mode instead of INS+EO on the account of poor visibility. It is not ISPR's narrative at all, in fact the GPS-systematic-targeting-error argument came forward from a third party:
India’s strike on Balakot: a very precise miss? | The Strategist

Regarding SAR imagery, I'm not sure what any SAR imagery will reveal that 50cm resolution optical imagery doesn't. Have a look:
Images - India, Pakistan Airstrike | European Space Imaging
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply.
But regarding Abhi,the award given for confirmation kill and verified by all the means as available in India's options,like that...
1. Abhi's confirmation as mig down so no hud footage...
2. Controller's data
3. AWACS data
4.Verified by 2 no's Ground radar data...
5. Recorded communication chatter from both side as say by IAF
6.Visual information from Indian army
7. Intercepted chatter from Pakistan Army

But if I sum up all the points ,it also point out to a fratricide (may be mirage 3)as like as MI 17..
Notably,it is now confirmed (not almost)that 2 no's aircraft crashed on that day..Now here is some question....
1. Pakistani Claim: Su30 crashed in J&K but pilots with us.
Counter claim: live reporting happened during Mi17 crash unfortunately but not Su 30 till date not even a picture came out..
2.The most famous "Pilot version".....To win a perception of war they announced in hurry...But it always remains as it was..
3.During a telephonic interview in a news channel DG ISPR clearly said that DOOSRA BANDA died in The CMH.
4.I found a tweet in Bharat Rakshak Forum...A retired pilot from sherdil...He tweeted about a closeone death whose name didn't want to reveal..Date of the tweet may be 3 or 4th march..
5. Initially refused regarding F16 involvement and we all read the clarification latter but sorry to say that was a lame excuse.Why?USA already knew it.They are present everywher.If USA pinpoint a missile test in anywhere in the world live, they can figured out it also(LOC was Hot that time,extensive surveillance was done).
6.Change of statements is a ART, learned it from DG ISPR...IAF also changed his statement just one time regarding breach of loc...

I can write a lot More all day long😁😁
But we all need the truth....
Now I am also frustrated from our side also.
May be we have to wait for few years.....
 
The Deterrent said:
Sir, you know very well that bringing Israel into every discussion is a sort of national hobby of ours. Please derive only amusement from such claims.


Sir, do let me know when you get your hands on either a piece of F-16 wreckage or its tail number or the name of the downed pilot. IIRC, DM Nirmala Sitharaman knows the name of the said pilot. Why bother going round and round in circles of claims and counter-claims? Just ask her. Perhaps the IAF intelligence can also help you in this regard.

Regarding the awards on claimed kill, as I said before, PAF also has electronic confirmation (unreleased to public) of target blip intercepted by the AMRAAM. However it is not a confirmed kill, because no confirmation in terms of wreckage/footage exists. Perhaps @panzerdad can verify: A kill is confirmed only when there is HUD cam footage or wreckage is found afterwards. Yet W/C Abhinandan is being awarded, and so are the Mirage-2000 air-strike pilots. Tells you a lot about it, doesn't it?

Put simply, its a war of narratives. :)



Sir, as you correctly noted, SPICE has multiple guidance sensors. EO seeker (both autonomous and MIL), GPS and INS. In all the accounts presented by the journalists on behalf of IAF sources, it has been maintained that SPICE-2000s were launched in GPS mode instead of INS+EO on the account of poor visibility. It is not ISPR's narrative at all, in fact the GPS-systematic-targeting-error argument came forward from a third party:
India’s strike on Balakot: a very precise miss? | The Strategist

Regarding SAR imagery, I'm not sure what any SAR imagery will reveal that 50cm resolution optical imagery doesn't. Have a look:
Images - India, Pakistan Airstrike | European Space Imaging
Click to expand...

I don't think there was any confirmation that the IAF used GPS guidance ONLY and Image mapping works in adverse weather conditions as confirmed by the SPICE makers. Yeah, the third party [which is an economy/business analysts] assumes IAF doesn't have the knowledge to punch in the co-ordinates this has been debunked by a retired Indian Satellite analyst [I THINK ]with his own analysis on why. Moreover, the target location has not been revealed/confirmed by IAF or GOI, and if it indeed missed IAF will not release a public statement they hit the target or they would have shown our Journalists the imagery.
 
The Deterrent said:
do let me know when you get your hands on either a piece of F-16 wreckage or its tail number or the name of the downed pilot. IIRC, DM Nirmala Sitharaman knows the name of the said pilot. Why bother going round and round in circles of claims and counter-claims? Just ask her. Perhaps the IAF intelligence can also help you in this regard.

Regarding the awards on claimed kill, as I said before, PAF also has electronic confirmation (unreleased to public) of target blip intercepted by the AMRAAM. However it is not a confirmed kill, because no confirmation in terms of wreckage/footage exists. Perhaps @panzerdad can verify: A kill is confirmed only when there is HUD cam footage or wreckage is found afterwards. Yet W/C Abhinandan is being awarded, and so are the Mirage-2000 air-strike pilots. Tells you a lot about it, doesn't it?

Put simply, its a war of narratives
Click to expand...
It's not war of narratives I have not used government claims instead I have used 3rd party submissions and verified if my government is telling the truth or fooling us like GoP and PA, like I did in Balakot Sat images.

And regarding the footage there are 3 videos available, all conclusively telling 2nd jet crashed in Pakistan, maybe you didn't pay enough attention, so why didn't you award confirmed kill if you possess wreckage of Su30? And that video is all the proof of confirmed kill of F16 and I told you in my previous reply why it can't be Su30 using all the Pakistani arguments. Also did you find wreckage or HUD footage of World record holding claim of 5 kills in a minute? Even when it is debunked you still claim it right?

I couldn't care less what my government says, if I find them lying I tell it as it is here.
 
BlackOpsIndia said:
It's not war of narratives I have not used government claims instead I have used 3rd party submissions and verified if my government is telling the truth or fooling us like GoP and PA, like I did in Balakot Sat images.

And regarding the footage there are 3 videos available, all conclusively telling 2nd jet crashed in Pakistan, maybe you didn't pay enough attention, so why didn't you award confirmed kill if you possess wreckage of Su30? And that video is all the proof of confirmed kill of F16 and I told you in my previous reply why it can't be Su30 using all the Pakistani arguments. Also did you find wreckage or HUD footage of World record holding claim of 5 kills in a minute? Even when it is debunked you still claim it right?

I couldn't care less what my government says, if I find them lying I tell it as it is here.
Click to expand...
True that 5 kills in a minute by Alam is as true as PAF missing their targets deliberately LoL. Atleast lie in a way that it is believable.
 
Deathstar said:
True that 5 kills in a minute by Alam is as true as PAF missing their targets deliberately LoL. Atleast lie in a way that it is believable.
Click to expand...
Alam even shot down those aircraft which were not even in the air and had done flights in the morning before he even got airborne. Only Pakistanis can believe such stupid stories.
 
I have seen multiple Pakistani claiming that they recorded Su30 kill on their radar but couldn't confirm it due to lack of physical evidence.

Su30 Mki with its superb TV maneuverability can make steep dive and reduce its speed close to range where Doppler radar not able to pick up frequency shift and discard the object as noise/clutter. Effectively Su30 can disapper from enemy radar for short amount of time.
 
Cole_phelps said:
I have seen multiple Pakistani claiming that they recorded Su30 kill on their radar but couldn't confirm it due to lack of physical evidence.

Su30 Mki with its superb TV maneuverability can make steep dive and reduce its speed close to range where Doppler radar not able to pick up frequency shift and discard the object as noise/clutter. Effectively Su30 can disapper from enemy radar for short amount of time.
Click to expand...
If they have radar blip disappearing ,then thy should disclose radar screenshots as IAF did
 
Freezerdam said:
Thanks for your reply.
But regarding Abhi,the award given for confirmation kill and verified by all the means as available in India's options,like that...
1. Abhi's confirmation as mig down so no hud footage...
2. Controller's data
3. AWACS data
4.Verified by 2 no's Ground radar data...
5. Recorded communication chatter from both side as say by IAF
6.Visual information from Indian army
7. Intercepted chatter from Pakistan Army
Click to expand...
Sir, as I said before, none of the above support a confirmed kill in air combat.

Freezerdam said:
But if I sum up all the points ,it also point out to a fratricide (may be mirage 3)as like as MI 17..
Notably,it is now confirmed (not almost)that 2 no's aircraft crashed on that day..Now here is some question....
1. Pakistani Claim: Su30 crashed in J&K but pilots with us.
Counter claim: live reporting happened during Mi17 crash unfortunately but not Su 30 till date not even a picture came out..
2.The most famous "Pilot version".....To win a perception of war they announced in hurry...But it always remains as it was..
3.During a telephonic interview in a news channel DG ISPR clearly said that DOOSRA BANDA died in The CMH.
4.I found a tweet in Bharat Rakshak Forum...A retired pilot from sherdil...He tweeted about a closeone death whose name didn't want to reveal..Date of the tweet may be 3 or 4th march..
5. Initially refused regarding F16 involvement and we all read the clarification latter but sorry to say that was a lame excuse.Why?USA already knew it.They are present everywher.If USA pinpoint a missile test in anywhere in the world live, they can figured out it also(LOC was Hot that time,extensive surveillance was done).
6.Change of statements is a ART, learned it from DG ISPR...IAF also changed his statement just one time regarding breach of loc...

I can write a lot More all day long😁😁
But we all need the truth....
Now I am also frustrated from our side also.
May be we have to wait for few years.....
Click to expand...
Sir, it is regretful that a PA spokesperson instead of a PAF spokesperson was on the helm of disseminating information that day. That is all I can say. :)

m_itsme said:
I don't think there was any confirmation that the IAF used GPS guidance ONLY and Image mapping works in adverse weather conditions as confirmed by the SPICE makers. Yeah, the third party [which is an economy/business analysts] assumes IAF doesn't have the knowledge to punch in the co-ordinates this has been debunked by a retired Indian Satellite analyst [I THINK ]with his own analysis on why. Moreover, the target location has not been revealed/confirmed by IAF or GOI, and if it indeed missed IAF will not release a public statement they hit the target or they would have shown our Journalists the imagery.
Click to expand...
Sir, the GPS-mode employment only supports the elevation-error-theory. However the guidance mode of the SOWs is irrelevant to the argument whether the SOWs missed their target or not.

If you do not believe that the camp at Jaba Top was the target, then all (debunked) analysis that you have considered so far is invalid.
Of course you are more than welcome to stick to your opinion. :)

BlackOpsIndia said:
Regarding the footage there are 3 videos available, all conclusively telling 2nd jet crashed in Pakistan, maybe you didn't pay enough attention, so why didn't you award confirmed kill if you possess wreckage of Su30? And that video is all the proof of confirmed kill of F16 and I told you in my previous reply why it can't be Su30 using all the Pakistani arguments. Also did you find wreckage or HUD footage of World record holding claim of 5 kills in a minute? Even when it is debunked you still claim it right?

I couldn't care less what my government says, if I find them lying I tell it as it is here.
Click to expand...
Sir, for the videos of tadpoles and puffs being proofs, please read the beginning of this post.
Regarding the other claimed kill, PAF claims to have hit a large-RCS target deep inside IOK, not AJK. This claim is based on electronic data from multiple surveillance platforms. After ridiculing IAF's radar images, PAF had no point in sharing its own.

BlackOpsIndia said:
Pakistan still can't get the story straight ;)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1164790704779907077
Click to expand...
Most probably a typo, otherwise KT would have also removed his comment on GIBS of F-16B in the answer to FAQ 8, along with editing the tail number. Both no. 606 and Hasan Sidiqqui are on active duty, contrary to what many here wish was not the case.

It is apparent that which party is still clutching for straws (proofs) even after 6 months. Aside from DG ISPR's shenanigans (F-16 usage & multiple pilots), PAF's narrative has been clear.
On the other hand, Indian narrative has went from "300 kills" to "not counting bodies", "holes in primary 30x30 target" to "collinear black pixels in new 20x20 target", "penetration munitions with 'reduced' explosives" to "Crystal Maze not launched due to bad weather", "Jihadi IEDs causing craters" to "PAF bombing around Balakot camp".
Similarly, they went from "all pilots accounted for" and "IAF 'thwarting' PAF strikes" and "Mi-17 down due to technical failure" and "PAF violating IAF airspace"...to "MiG-21 missing in action" and "Army commanders narrowly escaping PAF strikes" and "Mi-17 lost due to friendly-fire" and "PAF did not cross LoC".

It IS all about narratives, whether you like to believe it or not.
 
The Deterrent said:
Sir, as I said before, none of the above support a confirmed kill in air combat.


Sir, it is regretful that a PA spokesperson instead of a PAF spokesperson was on the helm of disseminating information that day. That is all I can say. :)


Sir, the GPS-mode employment only supports the elevation-error-theory. However the guidance mode of the SOWs is irrelevant to the argument whether the SOWs missed their target or not.

If you do not believe that the camp at Jaba Top was the target, then all (debunked) analysis that you have considered so far is invalid.
Of course you are more than welcome to stick to your opinion. :)


Sir, for the videos of tadpoles and puffs being proofs, please read the beginning of this post.
Regarding the other claimed kill, PAF claims to have hit a large-RCS target deep inside IOK, not AJK. This claim is based on electronic data from multiple surveillance platforms. After ridiculing IAF's radar images, PAF had no point in sharing its own.


Most probably a typo, otherwise KT would have also removed his comment on GIBS of F-16B in the answer to FAQ 8, along with editing the tail number. Both no. 606 and Hasan Sidiqqui are on active duty, contrary to what many here wish was not the case.

It is apparent that which party is still clutching for straws (proofs) even after 6 months. Aside from DG ISPR's shenanigans (F-16 usage & multiple pilots), PAF's narrative has been clear.
On the other hand, Indian narrative has went from "300 kills" to "not counting bodies", "holes in primary 30x30 target" to "collinear black pixels in new 20x20 target", "penetration munitions with 'reduced' explosives" to "Crystal Maze not launched due to bad weather", "Jihadi IEDs causing craters" to "PAF bombing around Balakot camp".
Similarly, they went from "all pilots accounted for" and "IAF 'thwarting' PAF strikes" and "Mi-17 down due to technical failure" and "PAF violating IAF airspace"...to "MiG-21 missing in action" and "Army commanders narrowly escaping PAF strikes" and "Mi-17 lost due to friendly-fire" and "PAF did not cross LoC".

It IS all about narratives, whether you like to believe it or not.
Click to expand...

What you Pakistanis Practice is Known as
TAQIYYA --- ie Deliberately Lying for political
Objective

When you Cannot admit ,death of soldiers
On LOC , How can you accept a BiG thing like
A F 16 loss
 
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The Deterrent said:
Sir, as I said before, none of the above support a confirmed kill in air combat.

Sir, it is regretful that a PA spokesperson instead of a PAF spokesperson was on the helm of disseminating information that day. That is all I can say. :)


Sir, the GPS-mode employment only supports the elevation-error-theory. However the guidance mode of the SOWs is irrelevant to the argument whether the SOWs missed their target or not.

If you do not believe that the camp at Jaba Top was the target, then all (debunked) analysis that you have considered so far is invalid.
Of course you are more than welcome to stick to your opinion. :)


Sir, for the videos of tadpoles and puffs being proofs, please read the beginning of this post.
Regarding the other claimed kill, PAF claims to have hit a large-RCS target deep inside IOK, not AJK. This claim is based on electronic data from multiple surveillance platforms. After ridiculing IAF's radar images, PAF had no point in sharing its own.


Most probably a typo, otherwise KT would have also removed his comment on GIBS of F-16B in the answer to FAQ 8, along with editing the tail number. Both no. 606 and Hasan Sidiqqui are on active duty, contrary to what many here wish was not the case.

It is apparent that which party is still clutching for straws (proofs) even after 6 months. Aside from DG ISPR's shenanigans (F-16 usage & multiple pilots), PAF's narrative has been clear.
On the other hand, Indian narrative has went from "300 kills" to "not counting bodies", "holes in primary 30x30 target" to "collinear black pixels in new 20x20 target", "penetration munitions with 'reduced' explosives" to "Crystal Maze not launched due to bad weather", "Jihadi IEDs causing craters" to "PAF bombing around Balakot camp".
Similarly, they went from "all pilots accounted for" and "IAF 'thwarting' PAF strikes" and "Mi-17 down due to technical failure" and "PAF violating IAF airspace"...to "MiG-21 missing in action" and "Army commanders narrowly escaping PAF strikes" and "Mi-17 lost due to friendly-fire" and "PAF did not cross LoC".

It IS all about narratives, whether you like to believe it or not.
Click to expand...

Sir,you intelligently mixed the whole thing to prove the Pakistan's narrative BUT that's okey....😁😁😁😁😁
 
The Deterrent said:
PAF claims to have hit a large-RCS target deep inside IOK, not AJK. This claim is based on electronic data from multiple surveillance platforms. After ridiculing IAF's radar images, PAF had no point in sharing its own.
Click to expand...
Ridiculing IAF Radar images? When? Where? In dreams? They were even matched by those videos!

Yup you have no point in sharing them and you very well know why.

Anyway question was simple I will repeat in case you missed it, when 2nd Crash site is in POK as confirmed by 3 different videos of 3rd parties why is Pakistan awarding for claimed kill and not confirmed kill.

Please be specific to this instead of making that it was PA spokesperson, or fog of war or bla bla.

The Deterrent said:
PAF's narrative has been clear.
On the other hand, Indian narrative has went from "300 kills" to "not counting bodies", "holes in primary 30x30 target" to "collinear black pixels in new 20x20 target", "penetration munitions with 'reduced' explosives" to "Crystal Maze not launched due to bad weather", "Jihadi IEDs causing craters" to "PAF bombing around Balakot camp".
Similarly, they went from "all pilots accounted for" and "IAF 'thwarting' PAF strikes" and "Mi-17 down due to technical failure" and "PAF violating IAF airspace"...to "MiG-21 missing in action" and "Army commanders narrowly escaping PAF strikes" and "Mi-17 lost due to friendly-fire" and "PAF did not cross LoC".

It IS all about narratives, whether you like to believe it or not.
Click to expand...

PAF Narrative is clear? Sure here is your CAS-

https://twitter.com/x/status/1118427653856538630

Word used is confirmed kill still can't award it? Why? You found what weapon was used to kill Su30? And since F16 were not used which platform killed Su30?

BTW whatever I am saying is strictly from your official spokesperson and whatever false narrative you have attributed to IAF is from Media and that too cleverly mixing 2 events and using all media statement to somehow make PAF blunder look credible.

When did IAF Claimed all pilots accounted for? Infact they said 'missing in action' and it is the offical term for a pilot missing till his identity is verified, thought you may know this. Rest of all what you have attributed to IAF is 'figment of your imagination'.
 
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Freezerdam said:
Sir,you intelligently mixed the whole thing to prove the Pakistan's narrative BUT that's okey....😁😁😁😁😁
Click to expand...
Yeah that's because he think it's all about narrative and not actual whipping they got on 27th. One of them were using a HAL Babu letter on some bearing of a part being not up to the mark and IAF not having confidence on those bearing. Genius inferred 'IAF is low on confidence' 😂

They think since their own public is too scared or dumb to question or see thru the lies everyone else will be equally gullible.
 
STEPHEN COHEN said:
What you Pakistanis Practice is Known as
TAQIYYA --- ie Deliberately Lying for political
Objective

When you Cannot admit ,death of soldiers
On LOC , How can you accept a BiG thing like
A F 16 loss
Click to expand...
Sir, I'm not sure who told you this, but the only "taqiyya" I'm familiar with is the pillow I sleep on every night.



Freezerdam said:
Sir,you intelligently mixed the whole thing to prove the Pakistan's narrative BUT that's okey....😁😁😁😁😁
Click to expand...
Sir, thank you for your compliment. :)



BlackOpsIndia said:
Ridiculing IAF Radar images? When? Where? In dreams? They were even matched by those videos!

Yup you have no point in sharing them and you very well know why.
Click to expand...
Sir, please calm down. I personally don't believe that those radar snapshots were ridiculous. Let me rephrase: After dismissing those images, PAF had no moral standing to share its own as credible evidence.

BlackOpsIndia said:
Anyway question was simple I will repeat in case you missed it, when 2nd Crash site is in POK as confirmed by 3 different videos of 3rd parties why is Pakistan awarding for claimed kill and not confirmed kill.

Please be specific to this instead of making that it was PA spokesperson, or fog of war or bla bla.
Click to expand...
Sir, please read my previous reply again. PAF's claimed kill (large RCS target/Su-30, deep inside IOK) and IAF's claimed kill (F-16, over AJK) are two different claimed kills, separated in time and space. I'm not sure why PAF would award its pilot for a kill claimed by IAF.

BlackOpsIndia said:
PAF Narrative is clear? Sure here is your CAS-

https://twitter.com/x/status/1118427653856538630

Word used is confirmed kill still can't award it? Why? You found what weapon was used to kill Su30? And since F16 were not used which platform killed Su30?

BTW whatever I am saying is strictly from your official spokesperson
Click to expand...
Sir, I would try to explain the difference between confirmed kill in air combat, and something confirmed to Alan Warnes personally...but I don't think it will be of any use. As stated before, PA spokesperson issued the "no F-16s used" statement because PA was not fully aware of the T&Cs of PAF's F-16s.

BlackOpsIndia said:
and whatever false narrative you have attributed to IAF is from Media and that too cleverly mixing 2 events and using all media statement to somehow make PAF blunder look credible. When did IAF Claimed all pilots accounted for? Infact they said 'missing in action' and it is the offical term for a pilot missing till his identity is verified, thought you may know this. Rest of all what you have attributed to IAF is 'figment of your imagination'.
Click to expand...
Sir, the problem is that you gentlemen believe the F-16 arguments (tadpoles, puffs) of the same media (analysts). Anyways, since everything is a figment of my imagination, relax and amuse yourself with my creative imagination. As others have noted, there is no point in discussing this over and over again unless some new evidence pops up. You know, something like a new-uddin, 606 or an engine cowling. :)
 
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