Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16

[randomradio]

Armed forces give answers only to government.unfortunately there is no way that the information is passed to common citizen.yes it hurts when you lost a jet but sometimes there are technical problems.inquiries are necessary and people are held accountable but common citizen have no knowledge.

Due to our laws and the procedures of insurance companies, we cannot hide or lie about aircraft losses.

But what we do hide is the reasons for losses in case the reason is critical for national security. For example, bird hit, pilot errors are revealed. But technical problems are rarely revealed, sometimes never.

The Mi-17 fratricide was human error due to failure to follow SOPs, so it was revealed. But if the reason was something far more serious, like failure of IFF or radar and so on, then it wouldn't have been revealed.

 

[Deathstar]

The military has its own ways to ensure accountability.

I alraedy told you to look up the military court system.

This is getting old.

Yes this is getting old , lets agree to disagree

 

[randomradio]

IAF radars watched PAF aircraft get airborne in sequence from various bases and at that time instead of calling up for more SU-30MKIs, we just watched them. Someone really goofed up that day. We had done Balakot just a day prior and such large formation getting airborne still did not ring any bells in anybody's mind?

I think we had enough aircraft in the air.

IIRC, we had 4 MKIs, 2 M-2000s and a number of Mig-21s. And along with those, we also had Mig-29s and Mig-21s scrambled.

And there's not much one can do against standoff weapons anyway.

 

[vstol Jockey]

I think we had enough aircraft in the air.

IIRC, we had 4 MKIs, 2 M-2000s and a number of Mig-21s. And along with those, we also had Mig-29s and Mig-21s scrambled.

And there's not much one can do against standoff weapons anyway.

Do you know what tactics PAF employed? They escorted the attacking force and then created a Barrier Combat Air Patrol. The aim was to shoot down Indian aircraft and not let them chase or attack the retreating or the AD fighters. Such a large force with BARCAP can only be defeated with numbers. We needed to have more M2Ks and SU-30MKIs in air to counter them. If we had a matching force level, PAF would have lost manymore aircraft. They achieved their surprise and while we watched them, we allowed ourselves to be surprised.

 

[Jaymax]

Do you know what tactics PAF employed? They escorted the attacking force and then created a Barrier Combat Air Patrol. The aim was to shoot down Indian aircraft and not let them chase or attack the retreating or the AD fighters. Such a large force with BARCAP can only be defeated with numbers. We needed to have more M2Ks and SU-30MKIs in air to counter them. If we had a matching force level, PAF would have lost manymore aircraft. They achieved their surprise and while we watched them, we allowed ourselves to be surprised.

Why were more aircraft not scrambled other than the MiGs from Kashmir. Adampur and Halwara could have reacted quickly.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Why were more aircraft not scrambled other than the MiGs from Kashmir. Adampur and Halwara could have reacted quickly.

The M2Ks were operating from Punjab and Su-30s from further inland. The moment IAF realised the intent of PAF, they could only rely on the nearest fighters which could be quickly scrambled and reach the battle zone in shortest possible time. Only Mig-21s were available for this job and so they were scrambled for interception.

 

[fyodor]

Do you know what tactics PAF employed? They escorted the attacking force and then created a Barrier Combat Air Patrol. The aim was to shoot down Indian aircraft and not let them chase or attack the retreating or the AD fighters. Such a large force with BARCAP can only be defeated with numbers. We needed to have more M2Ks and SU-30MKIs in air to counter them. If we had a matching force level, PAF would have lost manymore aircraft. They achieved their surprise and while we watched them, we allowed ourselves to be surprised.

Sir, that's what it is that IAF was 'surprised' that day, so to say. This wouldn't be an issue if it was a normal day as no AF expects a 24 fighter package trying to attack you everyday. But since this was just after 26th, it puts serious questions on IAF top brass. I am sure it also has to do with the hardware shortage on our side(more AWACS needed etc) but still if they were extremely alert atleast in the J&K area then that incident could have been averted.

The axe will fall on a lot of people when the next lot of officer re-shuffling takes place. Meanwhile, I hope IAF has updated their tactics.

 

[randomradio]

Do you know what tactics PAF employed? They escorted the attacking force and then created a Barrier Combat Air Patrol. The aim was to shoot down Indian aircraft and not let them chase or attack the retreating or the AD fighters. Such a large force with BARCAP can only be defeated with numbers. We needed to have more M2Ks and SU-30MKIs in air to counter them. If we had a matching force level, PAF would have lost manymore aircraft. They achieved their surprise and while we watched them, we allowed ourselves to be surprised.

But, as per ACM, the PAF did not cross LoC. Meaning, there was no truth to 3 F-16s having entered Indian airspace and dropped bombs post haste in order to escape.

And then, we know that when fired upon, we did not fire back for whatever reasons. So I don't see what having more aircraft would have done. Different story if the MKIs had fired back at the F-16s, but I don't think anything else was going to happen even if we had 10 MKIs flying around at the time.

And we also know that Abhinandan broke SOPs and crossed the LoC of his own accord, after apparently having ignored ground control. So, looking back, with the exception of air strikes, the day would have been largely uneventful if it wasn't for Abhinandan.

More so if we consider that everything we are discussing is not what actually happened.

 

[Deathstar]

The M2Ks were operating from Punjab and Su-30s from further inland. The moment IAF realised the intent of PAF, they could only rely on the nearest fighters which could be quickly scrambled and reach the battle zone in shortest possible time. Only Mig-21s were available for this job and so they were scrambled for interception.

Sir according to Pak memorial , Su30 they shot down was from 221st squadron based at Halwara Punjab. Is this possible??? Skirmish time was quite small and scrambling Sus from Halwara to intercept

 

[Jaymax]

Sir according to Pak memorial , Su30 they shot down was from 221st squadron based at Halwara Punjab. Is this possible??? Skirmish time was quite small and scrambling Sus from Halwara to intercept

They want a propaganda win over the premier IAF fighter. Halwara is the closest base for Sukhois from the conflict zone. They cant seem to pinpoint the wreckage from a fighter as big as a Sukhoi and yet they managed to find 4 missiles from the MiG-21. This theory has so many holes you can use it as a fishing net.

 

[rockstarIN]

I think we had enough aircraft in the air.

IIRC, we had 4 MKIs, 2 M-2000s and a number of Mig-21s. And along with those, we also had Mig-29s and Mig-21s scrambled.

And there's not much one can do against standoff weapons anyway.

there were only 2 MKIs where were first attacked not 4. Mig 21s arriving the scene later.

 

[rockstarIN]

But, as per ACM, the PAF did not cross LoC. Meaning, there was no truth to 3 F-16s having entered Indian airspace and dropped bombs post haste in order to escape.

And then, we know that when fired upon, we did not fire back for whatever reasons. So I don't see what having more aircraft would have done. Different story if the MKIs had fired back at the F-16s, but I don't think anything else was going to happen even if we had 10 MKIs flying around at the time.

And we also know that Abhinandan broke SOPs and crossed the LoC of his own accord, after apparently having ignored ground control. So, looking back, with the exception of air strikes, the day would have been largely uneventful if it wasn't for Abhinandan.

More so if we consider that everything we are discussing is not what actually happened.

Altitude of the fighters matter alot. F-16 missiles @45k altitude got double the range of R-77 which is under 20k feet. If we had any A2A fighter @40k+ altitude, the situation would have really different. Even LCA with I-Derby would have easily return missile fire even @20k feet altitude.

 

[randomradio]

there were only 2 MKIs where were first attacked not 4. Mig 21s arriving the scene later.

Not necessarily. Not to mention, stuff happened for as much as 10 minutes. At 900Kmph, 10 minutes gives you 150 Km, which is plenty of distance for other jets to cover. And during such times, jets actually go supersonic, at at least mach 1.6, so they cover distance all the more faster. There's a whole squadron of MKIs at Srinagar as well.

 

[randomradio]

Altitude of the fighters matter alot. F-16 missiles @45k altitude got double the range of R-77 which is under 20k feet. If we had any A2A fighter @40k+ altitude, the situation would have really different. Even LCA with I-Derby would have easily return missile fire even @20k feet altitude.

The altitude of fighters involved is all just speculation.

 

[rockstarIN]

Not necessarily. Not to mention, stuff happened for as much as 10 minutes. At 900Kmph, 10 minutes gives you 150 Km, which is plenty of distance for other jets to cover. And during such times, jets actually go supersonic, at at least mach 1.6, so they cover distance all the more faster. There's a whole squadron of MKIs at Srinagar as well.

AFAIK, no MKIs were in Sri Nagar. It was later arrived from inland bases. It did not happen in 10 minutes but just 3-4 minutes after first ARMRAAM firing.

 

[rockstarIN]

The altitude of fighters involved is all just speculation.

It is very important and the 'lack of firing solution' means the same. It is simple physics.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Lt Gen Satish Dua (@TheSatishDua) Tweeted:
Wah! Shiv Aroor on Twitter (

https://twitter.com/x/status/1173582103662882817

)

 

[vstol Jockey]

AFAIK, no MKIs were in Sri Nagar. It was later arrived from inland bases. It did not happen in 10 minutes but just 3-4 minutes after first ARMRAAM firing.

Su-30MKIs have now been posted to Srinagar. The game went on for over 10 minutes of going hot and going cold. Till Mig-21s arrived a pack of hungry wolves.

 

[randomradio]

AFAIK, no MKIs were in Sri Nagar. It was later arrived from inland bases. It did not happen in 10 minutes but just 3-4 minutes after first ARMRAAM firing.

IIRC, there are a number of MKIs always deployed in Srinagar.

Here's something interesting.
Exclusive: How Indian Air Force foiled Pakistani attempt to attack Army brigade HQ on Wednesday
Immediately, four Su-30MKi fighter jets and two MiG-21 jets took off from Srinagar and Awantipora to tackle the intruders.

It is very important and the 'lack of firing solution' means the same. It is simple physics.

You misunderstood. Nobody knows what altitude all the fighters were at.

 

[RISING SUN]

Just like you have the right to speak, the armed forces have the right to remain silent.

See, everybody has rights.

Respect and faith isn't earned by remaining silent. Buzdil people use this statement to hide their inefficiency, ineptness which you're displaying so brazenly.