Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16

[Abhay rajput]

Do you really think Every time a bomb is released , it hits the Target

Even US which bombs countries without
Air defences or Fighter planes must be missing their targets

Russia is still struggling in Syria after so many years

All Stand off weapons do have CEP

Only Dumb bombs can be accurately dropped just over the target

Okay my friend believe what you want to.. and I have never said anything about missing or CEP. My point is that IAF hasn't released any proof .

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

I will be honest with you, IAF has lost the edge that they had during Kargil and if Pakistan had aim120 than that war would have been whole another story. IAF advantage only comes when there is full fledge war , which is not going to happen because Pakistan have nuclear weapons. Bottom line .. so until someone come up with a good laser to shoot down missiles in seconds at more than 100km, there is nothing going to happen.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1235226117365092352

Look at this , A Su 24 is evading an Amraam C 5

It is not a big deal , Big deal is One Shot One Kill

Wasting BVRs will make them Nude in 2 days in an all out war

And Nukes are just BS

Pakistan Army Officers have made such huge Mansions , they will never destroy them

If we also fire BVRs their planes will also.take evasive action

So it ultimately boils down to Surge Operations

That is Maximum sorties in 2 or 3 days

And then we can always use Missiles

There is No going Back now

Every conflict from here on will be Bigger and bloodier

 

[randomradio]

I will be honest with you, IAF has lost the edge that they had during Kargil and if Pakistan had aim120 than that war would have been whole another story. IAF advantage only comes when there is full fledge war , which is not going to happen because Pakistan have nuclear weapons. Bottom line .. so until someone come up with a good laser to shoot down missiles in seconds at more than 100km, there is nothing going to happen.

No, during Kargil, they wouldn't have had the same missiles as during Balakot. In fact the missiles would likely have been the Aim-120A/B, which are inferior to the RVV-AE in every way. They are significantly inferior to the R-27E as well.

C5 became available only in 2002 (to the US), followed by the C7 in 2007 and C8/D in 2014. Deliveries for exports came in much later.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

No, during Kargil, they wouldn't have had the same missiles as during Balakot. In fact the missiles would likely have been the Aim-120A/B, which are inferior to the RVV-AE in every way. They are significantly inferior to the R-27E as well.

C5 became available only in 2002 (to the US), followed by the C7 in 2007 and C8/D in 2014. Deliveries for exports came in much later.

IAF was bent upon Rafale , So they ignored Su 30 upgrades -- That is a fact

And the UPA fcuked up.the procurement process

In comes Modi who Called out The BLUFF
The Nuclear Bluff

And so now it is a question of Fighting "with what we have " -- The old.Kargil.story

But no matter whatever is their excuse
They will have to Fight another war

Whatever happened was excellent
Fear is the Best Motivator

At least we can FIX the damned procurement process

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

And your "Favourite " PAF wasted 6 Amraams , 11 H 4 and also lost an F 16 to an MIG 21

PAF or anything Pakistani military I despise so much.

IAF has accepted its mistakes and shortcomings but the ONLY WAY these shortcomings are known is through Real.War

No they have not accepted any mistake, instead they have tried to hide them and very shamelessly right from top by Mr. Dhanoa.

We could evict.them.from Kargil
ONLY because of IAF

Not true, but they fought well and won, didn't surrendered like last year.

 

[Abhay rajput]

No, during Kargil, they wouldn't have had the same missiles as during Balakot. In fact the missiles would likely have been the Aim-120A/B, which are inferior to the RVV-AE in every way. They are significantly inferior to the R-27E as well.

C5 became available only in 2002 (to the US), followed by the C7 in 2007 and C8/D in 2014. Deliveries for exports came in much later.

The keyword here is IF.. and I don't think that they had any BVR missiles and even if they had, the number would be insignificant .

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

PAF or anything Pakistani military I despise so much.


No they have not accepted any mistake, instead they have tried to hide them and very shamelessly right from top by Mr. Dhanoa.


Not true, but they fought well and won, didn't surrendered like last year.

We need a war Every year to maintain our superiority

We dont need excuses or reasons to go to war with Pakistan

 

[Abhay rajput]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1235226117365092352

Look at this , A Su 24 is evading an Amraam C 5

It is not a big deal , Big deal is One Shot One Kill

Wasting BVRs will make them Nude in 2 days in an all out war

And Nukes are just BS

Pakistan Army Officers have made such huge Mansions , they will never destroy them

If we also fire BVRs their planes will also.take evasive action

So it ultimately boils down to Surge Operations

That is Maximum sorties in 2 or 3 days

And then we can always use Missiles

There is No going Back now

Every conflict from here on will be Bigger and bloodier

Yes ofcourse.. live your dreams.. sadly reality is often more disappointing..

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

No they have not accepted any mistake, instead they have tried to hide them and very shamelessly right from top by Mr. Dhanoa.

Why are you bent upon IAF disclosing all their secrets and capabilities

Even USA does not do so

Yes ofcourse.. live your dreams.. sadly reality is often more disappointing..

No it is Not
Because what matters is political will

Dont you think that Government would have asked these difficult questions and Directed them.to take Remedial measures
For the NEXT conflict.

I dont understand the Despondency

Bad Circumstances can be overcome

 

[screambowl]

Why are you bent upon IAF disclosing all their secrets and capabilities

Even USA does not do so

On this point I would beg to disagree.

secrets are kept there where one has something of it's own. Indian airforce has hardly 10% indigenous, except for deployment , strategy and plan there is nothing secret.

 

[Austerlitz]

The only reason PAF survived 27th feb stunt without inviting a massive IAF assault on their airbases was abhinandan's capture and time given for diplomacy.People think that the AMRAAM gives PAF some kind of great advantage,it doesnt really.AMRAAM failed against both mig-21 and SU-30 when they were covered by ELTA jammer.Abhi got hit because he was without jammer cover.The main weakness of long delayed secure radios have been rectified.With S-400 coming from next year Pakistanis can't even put their AWACS 200 kms from the border.
A lesson people dont seem to pay attention to from feb 27 episode is unreliability of radar guided BVR against jammer protected fighters,and the deadly one shot kill reliability of IR guided CCM which gives no warning until too late.

 

[randomradio]

IAF was bent upon Rafale , So they ignored Su 30 upgrades -- That is a fact

Rather the MKI contract wasn't done very well.

The keyword here is IF.. and I don't think that they had any BVR missiles and even if they had, the number would be insignificant .

Yep, naturally they did not have any BVR missiles at the time. But if they did have access to BVR, they would have bought at least 500 of them.

 

[randomradio]

The only reason PAF survived 27th feb stunt without inviting a massive IAF assault on their airbases was abhinandan's capture and time given for diplomacy.People think that the AMRAAM gives PAF some kind of great advantage,it doesnt really.AMRAAM failed against both mig-21 and SU-30 when they were covered by ELTA jammer.Abhi got hit because he was without jammer cover.The main weakness of long delayed secure radios have been rectified.With S-400 coming from next year Pakistanis can't even put their AWACS 200 kms from the border.
A lesson people dont seem to pay attention to from feb 27 episode is unreliability of radar guided BVR against jammer protected fighters,and the deadly one shot kill reliability of IR guided CCM which gives no warning until too late.

Rafales are coming in over the next few months as well, and with Meteors.

 

[Ashwin]

Okay sir please read the article first before making any conclusions.. his first points was literally about PAF superior bvr missiles first shoot capability with better kinematic range.. they fired there first missile at close to 60km and last missile close to 40km. They had recording of our pilot's. Moreover my brother who is also a fighter pilot literally told me that they have better missiles than us . We could have bought the missiles that we bought in 2019 after balakot . There were a lot of time since 2008.I know quite well how Israeli weapons are integrated on mirgae (jugaad) without OEM because it was cheap. And after balakot IAF decided - it's best to consider OEM certification.. That's why one spice failed. Crystal maze are another story so just leave them out.

He is asking for rafale. Just like the last ACM. What would have happened if it was Rafale? Selling the conflict to buy more cutting edge stuff. We brought RVV-AE to restock the expired R-77 that we acquired in the late 90s. The remaining will be replaced with Astra. Israeli Spice has OEM certification as back as 2015 when they got FOC.

They shoot first because they were the adversary and they have had the luxury to do so. Our role that day was defensive and we did it beautifuly even when we were outnumbered.

Really how can mica be on par with aim120. There weight difference is huge. You might mean there NEZ is similar but not overall range. R77 doesn't work reliably if the target is more than 35-40km away . Lastly Pakistani even have su30 pilots recording .. salute to the courage of that sikh guy who wasn't ready to give up . A lone su30 facing many f16 and it's missiles are not giving him firing solution.. I am really amazed how well Pakistan spend there defence budget compared to India. Lastly I haven't bring nuclear weapons or anything like that. My point is that they were getting better weapons than you and you were sleeping for years.

Who told you more weight is a good thing? For any flying object, less weight is always better. Better maneuverable missile and carrying fighter. No missile is reliable after 30km+ against a maneuvering target (except Meteor). Why do you think AIM missed the huge flanker?

BVR combat is not that straightforward as you think. Actual range of the missile depends on so many varibles like altitude, elevation, angle of attack, energy left after multiple Gs.

In air-to-air combat, BVR missiles fill the niche of old battle rifles and modern sniper rifles, WVR missiles fill the niche of modern assault rifles, while gun fills niche of combat knife. While gun is most versatile weapon of the lot – it can be used for air-to-air work, close air support, firing warning shots towards aircraft violating forbidden airspace – it is not often used in air-to-air combat and is treated purely as fallback weapon in case missiles have been expended.

It is often forgotten is that g forces in tracking turn are a square of speed. Thus, in WVR combat, if missile travels at Mach 3 and fighter aircraft travels at Mach 0,6 (corner speed of many modern fighters) and can pull 9 g maneuvers, then missile needs to pull 225 g to match turn radius, or 100 g if fighter is travelling at Mach 0,9. If missile is fired outside ideal position, it has to maneuver in order to point its nose towards the target, thus lowering probability of kill; there is also a danger of targeted aircraft simply flying out of missile’s field of view. This danger is also present with active-seeker BVR missiles. In BVR, AIM-120 travels at Mach 4, and can pull 30 g within its NEZ, yet it would need 400 Gs to reliably hit a modern fighter which is maneuvering at corner speed of Mach 0,6, or 178 Gs if target is still at standard cruise speed of Mach 0,9.

Further, even though BVR missiles have maximum range of over 100 kilometers, their effective range against aircraft in attack is 1/5 of that – around 20 kilometers – and target beyond 40 kilometers can feel free to maneuver without even taking any possible missile shots into account, as only way these would hit is luck. One of reasons is that BVR missiles follow ballistic trajectories – AIM-120C-5 allegedly has motor burn time of 8 seconds, which gives range of around 10 kilometers before motor burns out. At ranges greater than 8 kilometers, attacking fighter can still choose wether to outmaneuver or outrun the BVR missile; at distances less than that is missile’s no-escape zone, where aircraft cannot outrun the missile, it has to outmaneuver it, but such distances automatically mean that combat is not longer beyond visual range. Ranges stated are also only true at high altitude against aircraft in attack; at low altitude, effective range of BVR missile is reduced to 25% of its range at high altitude, and range against aircraft in flight is 1/4 of that against aircraft in attack.

Missiles in fact can achieve either maximum range or maximum maneuvering capability – missile that pulls 40 g at sea level will only pull 13 g at 10.000 meters and 2,85 g at 20.000 meters, unless 40 g is a structural limit. AIM-9 for example can pull 40 g at SL and at 10.000 ft, and 35 g at 20.000 ft. Thus, it can be expected to pull single-digit number of g’s at 40.000 ft. Meanwhile, F-16 for example can sustain 8,5 g at 15.000 ft, and Rafale can sustain 9 g at 40.000 ft.

In addition, the fighter radar has to guide it till the terminal phase. In this scenario, F-16 may have to turn back fearing our MICA /R-77. Its an explanation of why it failed. Don't go by what others say, read enough about it before coming to conclusions.

Limitations to aMissile's P[k]


Each and every missile type has its fundamental weaknessesandthough some may be kept secret, many can be easily inferred byobservation.


Propulsion is one of the very apparent limitations of anymissile. Most current missiles employ rocket propulsion which offers ahigh thrust/weight ratio and small size. The typical thrust profile ofsuch a solid propellant rocket is that of an initial high impulse burnto accelerate up to cruise speed, then followed by a slower sustainerburn. Once the propellant is burned out, the airframe will coast untildrag takes its toll. The manoeuvring ability of such a missile dependscritically on its speed and therefore the amount of wing and body liftit can generate.


Immediately after launch the missile has poor manoeuvrabilitydue to its low speed, this improves as its cruise speed is reached.Manoeuvrability will peak at the instant when the sustainer is about toburn out as the weapon has its lowest mass and a high energy statewhile still possessing powerplant thrust. After sustainer burnout, themissile will bleed off its energy which reduces its ability to followthrough manoeuvres. Significantly, a missile's range depends onaltitude, with a typical factor of two improvement between sea leveland 20,000ft. Another important aspect of a missile powerplant is itsvisual signature of smoke plume and/or contrail. These identify thelaunch site/vehicle's position and aspect, may identify the missiletype and also provide a clear indication of the missile's flightpath.Although modern weapons such as AMRAAM have reduced trails, it is afactor which is difficult to eliminate.


The airframe and controls of a missile impose structural andaerodynamic performance limitations. Ideally, a missile airframe willemploy a combination of wing and body lift to provide maximum turn ratewith minimum energy bleed throughout all phases of its flight whilemaximising range. Most missile airframes use, much like fixed wingaircraft, indirect control forces to turn; rotating control surfaceschange the attitude of the vehicle relative to the airflow whichgenerates wing and body lift forces. These turn the missile and areproportional to speed. Even at the missile's cruise speed basicmanoeuvrability limits will exist due to the airframe's G-limit and AoAlimits of its surfaces and these may be exploited in defeating it.


A special class of missiles are those which employ thrustvector control and radial manoeuvring thrusters. These offer tightmanoeuvring at low speeds but are unable to manoeuvre after the burnoutof the sustainer or thrusters respectively.


The guidance implements the fundamental control law(s)designed for the vehicle, it translates the perceived motion of thetarget into control commands which alter the airframe's flightpath toachieve a hit.

Linking @Picard578 's writings and ausairpower.
Air to air weapons effectiveness
Usefulness of BVR combat
The Russian Philosophy of Beyond Visual Range Air Combat
Evading the Guided Missile

 

[Ashwin]

The only reason PAF survived 27th feb stunt without inviting a massive IAF assault on their airbases was abhinandan's capture and time given for diplomacy.People think that the AMRAAM gives PAF some kind of great advantage,it doesnt really.AMRAAM failed against both mig-21 and SU-30 when they were covered by ELTA jammer.Abhi got hit because he was without jammer cover.The main weakness of long delayed secure radios have been rectified.With S-400 coming from next year Pakistanis can't even put their AWACS 200 kms from the border.
A lesson people dont seem to pay attention to from feb 27 episode is unreliability of radar guided BVR against jammer protected fighters,and the deadly one shot kill reliability of IR guided CCM which gives no warning until too late.

Yes, when you remove abhinandan capture from the sequence of events. What did PAF actually achieve? Losing a F-16 and missing the target.

Btw our fighter still lacks MAWS. In the next conflict, you won't even know what hit you. Pun intended.

 

[Abhay rajput]

He is asking for rafale. Just like the last ACM. What would have happened if it was Rafale? Selling the conflict to buy more cutting edge stuff. We brought RVV-AE to restock the expired R-77 that we acquired in the late 90s. The remaining will be replaced with Astra. Israeli Spice has OEM certification as back as 2015 when they got FOC.

They shoot first because they were the adversary and they have had the luxury to do so. Our role that day was defensive and we did it beautifuly even when we were outnumbered.


Who told you more weight is a good thing? For any flying object, less weight is always better. Better maneuverable missile and carrying fighter. No missile is reliable after 30km+ against a maneuvering target (except Meteor). Why do you think AIM missed the huge flanker?

BVR combat is not that straightforward as you think. Actual range of the missile depends on so many varibles like altitude, elevation, angle of attack, energy left after multiple Gs.


In addition, the fighter radar has to guide it till the terminal phase. In this scenario, F-16 may have to turn back fearing our MICA /R-77. Its an explanation of why it failed. Don't go by what others say, read enough about it before coming to conclusions.



Linking @Picard578 's writings and ausairpower.
Air to air weapons effectiveness
Usefulness of BVR combat
The Russian Philosophy of Beyond Visual Range Air Combat
Evading the Guided Missile

You debunk the retired AM views as excuse for buying Rafale. If I quote some veteran again then you will dismiss it as excuse too.. . I don't believe that , I believe that our pm, IAF chief saying that only Rafale can stop PAF... After so much shaming IAF would not have said that but instead wait for few months if they really weren't desperate..
I am aware how BVR combat works quite well.. our su30 were not even carrying r27 .. stop posting false Perspective.. IAF got there butt kicked say it as it is... And weight is a factor for BVR . Mica is nowhere near aim120. ...
Regarding those aim missed just ask how close they came to su30. From my perspective there main objective was dropping bombs which they achieve quite well. They used first generation bombs that's another matter but they have upgraded them.
And please I have read all those ausspower articles long time ago when they came out.. they are from 2008, Picard the less say better about this guy.. there are many false information in his articles over the years , kinda like national interest but on a lower scale. Okay sir I know that you have made your mind , so there is no point in discussing it further.

 

[Ashwin]

only Rafale can stop PAF

Ok

 

[Abhay rajput]

Ok

No sir thats not what I am saying. This is the statements of elected officials(pm) and serving military officers(iaf chief, both of them ,IAF veterans) . All these people are not making a case for Rafale ...

 

[screambowl]

Sir you are the only person who speaks with some common sense.. even turkey released better proof than IAF

As I have been mentioning, Indian Air force is in turmoil. Pakistanis had prior intelligence on the condition of Indian airforce, if on a defence forum people are able to assess this much, imagine what is the level of assessment with pakistan's air intelligence HQ. They knew already what India has got and what is the loss which Pakistan airforce has to face and they are happy with it. They were prepared for the loss.

Only one thing surprizes me is that, we are not able to get any shots or camera visuals of PAF jet after the crash, of course there are radar signatures, secondly India failed in giving awe and shock to Pakistan establishment, by NOT releasing the so called video of balakot strike.

 

[Saaho]

Why are you bent upon IAF disclosing all their secrets and capabilities

Even USA does not do so

To be honest, USA shares a hell lot more about its capabilities due to their constant need to sell weapons. IAF cann't even down sample a SAR image and share it.