Not sure why Pakistan PM is worried about missile threat from our chickened out leader and released Abhinandan without any condition after the PAF attack on indian military ?
.Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
Not sure why Pakistan PM is worried about missile threat from our chickened out leader and released Abhinandan without any condition after the PAF attack on indian military ?
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The issue is this : Indian planners (military and PMO/MoD/Current political leadership) had this agenda : To carry out a surgical, targeted, intelligence driven bombing on Pakistani militant training camp (I don't know if it was under use or mothballed). It fulfilled the goals of a sub-conventional assault which should not start a war. I am sure they were expecting some kind of retaliation. Infact, an air borne retaliation. They knew they will be able to repel it. The only mis-calculation in their design was Abhinandan who for what ever reason crossed into PoK and got shot down. A MI-17 was another operational failure. This was followed by a massive propaganda campaign by Pakistan. Something India should have but never anticipated. Their thinking was that it will be similar to Uri revenge. Pakistan will deny damage and India will be insist that they did. And matter will close then and there. What happened with MI-17 friendly fire and Abhinandan's capture was it cleared the fog of war as far as Pakistan goes. There was no denying of these two events.
I guess someone in MoD/PMO/Military is taking notes and next time will hit Pakistan with a very public and undeniable attack.
I don't understand why so many are almost PMSing here like teenage girls! All those arguments of why couldn't the RAW get footage of the F-16 wreck!! It's common sense that RAW couldn't have predetermined the site of the wreck before it happened and be present there. Now the entire site would have been cordoned off within an hour or so and you can't blame the RAW for not reaching there b4 that coz RAW agents are not ubiquitous in Pakistan. In such a scenario only Indian deep assets within the PAF/PA could have gotten those pics or footages and they must have even gotten them too but once released publicly to satisfy armchair activists like @screambowl they would compromise the asset very easily. It is very easy to reconstruct who has taken a pic/ footage in a well guarded/surveilled environment. Compromise assets just so that you can have an upper edge against Porkis in your keyboard Jihad?? LOL. Even then they could have easily denied that coming up with an apparently plausible story. The only place the Indian Forces lost is in a sophisticated Information campaign and even the present army chief is admitting it and I am sure they are working towards correcting that!
So there was not a single local who shot the video of F16 and put it on internet? Where as Abhinandan's video was all over internet within one hour. How is it that locals reached to abhinandan's crashed site and not F-16's crashed site.
Turkey shot down russian aircrafts then later engagement of turkish and syrian jets are all over internet. There is a war footage from 1950 air engagements between Israel and arab world. Infact 1971 war as well. And no one refutes claim.
Is Pakistan some roohani taqat that they disappeared a 1.6 ton wreckage that too from near LC area. It's like another MH370
Tum ko digest hota hai tum karo, it's tough for me to digest that there is no photography of shot down f16. In 21st century a plane gets shot down and there is a denial? hadh hai bhai!
Aise plan hi kyun banatey ho jisme adversary easy deny karde. Maro saley ko khulle aam!
A video was posted here which showed an aircraft falling and after that two ejections seats falling within one minute. If an aircraft breaks apart in air, all its part will hit the gound near simultaneously. But in that video we could see the two ejections seats fall to the ground after the aircraft has hit the ground. The seats eject and go higher than the altitude of the aircraft, they are also ejected upwards and backwards and have stabilising drogue chutes. which could be seen on those two seats clearly. The time difference between the seats is on account of the command sequential firing with time delay between two seats and also could be due to the two pilots separately ejecting instead of command ejection. The seats will always fall short of the wreckage as could be seen in that video. Now the question arises, how can we have two ejections seats falling to the ground when only one Mig-21 crashed and that happens to be a single seater. The ejections seats fall in the same line as the aircraft. I am 100% sure that the video is of the F-16 wreck falling to the ground and the two ejections seats are from that aircraft.
Hell yes.
This is what I have been saying for a very long time.
Their intent was clear, they came in to strike at our military installations as a revenge for their blown up jihadis.
The intent itself is sufficient for a retaliatory strike. I was very disappointed when that didn't happen.
In the entire event of balakot and post balakot, this is the point where I felt we lost the initiative and the opportunity to burn the crap out of Pak military establishment. Their social media heroics would have taken them only so far in case of a massive Indian retaliation and there would have been black smoke through out pak for all to see.
Do you even think before typing? All the footages that you would see are from the Planes which shot down the other plane or planes nearby! The plane which shot down F16 itself got shot down! LOL. How are we supposed to get the footage?! Also, there are ample videos showing two different falling wreckages. Try and explain that! Please give a rational counter rather than your 21st-century rhetoric! There are ample Pakistani news channels reports where the locals have repeatedly claimed two downed pilots. Please go ahead and explain to me who the second pilot was!
You surely don't understand how things work right? Pakistan in times of tension cuts off internet connectivity of border areas to prevent real-time espionage. So let's say at max 20 people even reached the spot of the wreckage(which they did as can be seen from reports where people claim 2 pilots to be downed). All it will take to bury it down is for the Pak army personnel to just seize their phone temporarily and delete those footages. In those kinds of situations, not more than 2/3 guy will even make a video. After that just push the video of Abhinandan. Game over. You don't even need a well-trained army to do that, give me 15 guys I will get it done for you!
"Aise plan hi kyun banatey ho jisme adversary easy deny karde. Maro saley ko khulle aam!" - This is what I pointed out in my original comment you are interested in Keyboard jihad nothing else! Moreover shooting down the F16 wasn't a "plan". I am pretty sure had you been an adult during Kargil you wouldn't ever believe Pak army was fighting from the other side because of course, India didn't have any visual proof for you!
It was quite by chance that India landed the opportunity to prove that indeed the Pak army was involved and not "irregulars" thanks to the clever thinking of a local commander. Even that chance came after quite a wait!
Aray inkey paas sab kuch hoga photo.(they most probably have the photo)
forget that look at this. after balakot strike Pakistan still has not learn because whole world needs terrorists to fight their proxy war in other country's only India nithalle emotional and thakele buddhas piss in pants.
such kind of news emerge every day, BC desh hai hum kya hai?
We talk so much about rafale, mirage procurement. We have pages here full of high level engineering talks and tactics. But the result is, the enemy every day is trying to do something and you are sitting silently.
bro Pakistan is military ruled country this is why they are not going to give up, they know the team work. The people who are running the country their training is to keep trying. That's the basic differnce between them an us. We have lethargists running the country. People in our country wait to let things ruin and then act. By the time it's very late.
aise hi 1000 saal maar thodi khayi hai humney. We have some problem with us. This thread is running past one year and will still run for next 50 years. Mind this! Pakistanis will every time show us the photos of Abhinandan in blood. Tumse agar kuch ho sakta hai to karo, nahi to jo kar raha hai support him and if you can't do that then push the incharge to do something. Build pressure on the thekedars to act wisely and in real.
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Proxy wars are a part and parcel. You can only react if they cross some line! Even India has used/uses proxies against Pak! Also don't worry you don't have to wait for 50 yrs we will have something big coming up anyway in the next 4-8 years! You can trust pak to do something stupid again! Just pray we don't have a Cong govt then!
All of these things are a matter of chance as well. We were able to get wrackage of AIM120C missile by chance. while someone else is searching for wreckage for 2 weeks using 3 helicopters, 50 men and 5 ground patrol vehicles. (NATO Eurofighter stray missile search called off) and yet they could not find it. We had it in few hours because the missile hit someone on the ground.
We had to search for our own crashed carrier plane, a much bigger one, for what? About a week or may be more before we found it. It is hard. it is very hard to find wreckage of a crash, unless it falls near a population.
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Now when it is proven that a Mig21 can take down F-16 flown by PAF then India must bring in LCA into Kashmir, Sri Nagar in rotational schedules. The Pakistanis should have the fear. It's small aircraft and it can conduct low altitude flying better than any other aircraft in the region. Perfect for Himalayan region and consumes less fuel.
Now when it is proven that a Mig21 can take down F-16 flown by PAF then India must bring in LCA into Kashmir, Sri Nagar in rotational schedules. The Pakistanis should have the fear. It's small aircraft and it can conduct low altitude flying better than any other aircraft in the region. Perfect for Himalayan region and consumes less fuel.
Even the photo or video of second pilot never surfaced, even though they publicly announced it.
I am not surprized Pakistanis are professionals when it comes to propaganda war, they did their job well by diverting us towards abhinandan
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Gyan given by Raavan still relevant and must be taught to generals of Indian military
1- Do not be the enemy of your charioteer, your gatekeeper, your cook and your brother, they can harm you anytime.
( due to resentment they can end up becoming a spy for ISI or China or US and this has happened)
2- Do not think you are always a winner, even if you are winning all the time.
( 27th Feb 2019 is the example)
3- Always trust the minister, who criticises you.
( get trained to handle Pakistani propaganda from opposition parties)
4-Never think your enemy is small or powerless, like I thought about Hanuman
( Indian air force and intelligence needs to learn that about PAF and ISI respectively)
5- Never think you can outsmart the stars, they will bring you what you are destined to
( Abhinandan going down into the hands of Pakistani military was his destiny, plan ops with worst case scenarios)
6- Either love or hate God, but both should be immense and strong.
( This make you clear about what you are doing why are you doing, Indian leadership has no clear vision)
7--A king who is eager to win glory must suppress greed as soon as it lifts its head.
( valid to most officers in army and beurocracy, they are arrogant humans)
8--A king must welcome the smallest chance to do good to others, without the slightest procrastination.
( you get smallest chance to do well for your country, do it don't linger on)
I know. R73s on M2K....
As for 30
Well this is what I found here
The Indian fighters, armed with R-73 and R-77 air-to-air missiles, could not target the F-16s because they were outranged as the F-16s were fired from a distance of about 45 km from the Line of Control.
source: IAF's Mirage 2000 jets unlikely to get Meteor missiles, makers cite high integration cost
Now, assuming this to be somewhat accurate, 45 kms from LC means that own aircraft will be minimum 10 kms away from LC (minimal distance being assumed although it was more) ... that makes firing range of AIM-120C about 55 kms ... which is a like a joke in active jamming ... and more of firing blind (as was the case).
Now how can this range be 'outgunned' when at 55 kms AIM-120C, with a LoJ, failed to hit a Su-30MKI?
Seriously to expect Indians especially gernails bureaucrats stupitellectuals to learn from our history is an affront to sickularism and importantly mental slavery to West
I know. R73s on M2K....
As for 30
Well this is what I found here
The Indian fighters, armed with R-73 and R-77 air-to-air missiles, could not target the F-16s because they were outranged as the F-16s were fired from a distance of about 45 km from the Line of Control.
source: IAF's Mirage 2000 jets unlikely to get Meteor missiles, makers cite high integration cost
Now, assuming this to be somewhat accurate, 45 kms from LC means that own aircraft will be minimum 10 kms away from LC (minimal distance being assumed although it was more) ... that makes firing range of AIM-120C about 55 kms ... which is a like a joke in active jamming ... and more of firing blind (as was the case).
Now how can this range be 'outgunned' when at 55 kms AIM-120C, with a LoJ, failed to hit a Su-30MKI?
No one ever mentions the altitude though. The Aim-120C-5 can do 105Km at high altitude, but reduces by half or even less at medium and low altitudes.
For example, Astra Mk1 was designed to do 44Km at 8Km, the design has exceeded that spec, but this is only at co-altitude. Range also changes when one is firing from a lower altitude to a higher altitude and vice versa. Then there's also the flight profile, the missile can either be fired in a head-on profile with lower range or a ballistic profile with higher range.
People say the F-16s that fired AMRAAMs at MKIs were at a higher altitude than the MKIs. So if the MKIs were at an altitude of 8Km while the F-16 was at 10-12Km, then even the R-27 will not be able to make up that difference. Hence outgunned. Of course, this stuff is only general knowledge and I'm not saying this is what happened, since I do not know. Some were claiming that the MKIs were only at 5Km altitude, while the F-16s were at 9Km.
If the F-16s were at a higher altitude than the MKIs, then the MKIs will definitely be outgunned, but at the same time, this is a tactic used to make your enemy (the F-16s) come closer so that you can use your superior kinematics to get a better shot at the enemy from a much closer distance where targeting data is much superior.
The MKIs can also climb to much higher altitudes and fire off R-77s in a ballistic profile at lower altitude F-16s and give the MKIs a range advantage.
If the altitudes of the jets are publicly released, then it will give us a much clearer understanding of what exactly happened, and whether we were actually outgunned or not, but I don't think that's ever going to happen, at least anytime soon.
So if we were indeed outgunned, it would be due to a whole host of reasons rather than just one or two factors alone. Even deliberately being "outgunned" is not a disadvantage, the French do it all the time. It's all about the tactics used since the battlefield is three dimensional and being outgunned is merely a matter of perspective.
But yeah, with existing missiles and jamming capabilities, getting a proper shot off at such distances, you won't really hit anything. It would be great to know what the Pakistanis were thinking of accomplishing here.
I read this on this thread only that ,that day F-16s were at higher altitudes and Su30mki to some what lower heights. So obviously when AIM120 C was fired range fell down to 40-50kms. They most probably fired to keep Su30 engaged, with hit and trial mode/fire and forget. May be this is why they (IAF jets) were asked not to go beyond a certain nautical miles and let ground forces shoot down PAF with SAM.
They were ready this is why one of our choppers got hit.
