British/Italian Tempest (GCAP) Fighter : News and Discussion

Lolwa said:
India will not join any foreign program. Honestly apart from the engine when it comes to the plane the French have a much better fifth gen program. Since Germany would be with the French scaf it will be a bigger export success than the tempest. Plus scaf also will have a naval variant. That isn't case with the tempest...
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The French program is at a higher risk of failing because they have very dubious partners. Both Spain and Germany are the least trusted amongst the EFT partners. And Germany will be the biggest political hurdle when it comes to exports, they don't like exporting weapons to countries that have a high possibility of going to war. Also, both Germany and Spain are incompetent, they do not have anything significant to offer, and if they do end up contributing to the aircraft, then the FCAS will be all the worse for it.

Britain has the best partners, particularly Sweden, although even Sweden has issues selling jets to some questionable countries, including those that can potentially go to war. But both Italy and Sweden have accomplished aerospace industries.
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
They are already debating to reduce the F35 procurement below 90 aircrafts. And if that comes at a cost of investment for a non US stealth aircraft. That won't be liked by the US.

The UK will surely want a lot of things but realities are actually far away. They are not in any position to salvage more than 1 of the branches. Their land forces has already received their news. Now their air arm will be next. It seems that they want to save their navy the most. Their airforce and land force will become secondary support arms of their navy within a decade.
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GB will never purchase 138 x F35 ! never.
Even 90 is an impossible target. My opinion is 60-70.
Lolwa said:
India will not join any foreign program. Honestly apart from the engine when it comes to the plane the French have a much better fifth gen program. Since Germany would be with the French scaf it will be a bigger export success than the tempest. Plus scaf also will have a naval variant. That isn't case with the tempest...
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Even in the engine the GB is late. The last full GB jet engine was the Spey... 60's technology.
 
randomradio said:
The French program is at a higher risk of failing because they have very dubious partners. Both Spain and Germany are the least trusted amongst the EFT partners. And Germany will be the biggest political hurdle when it comes to exports, they don't like exporting weapons to countries that have a high possibility of going to war.
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The French are the sole to be able to study from A to Z a new fighter.
The Spanich and the German are aware of that. And they know that the EF is not technicallly as successfull as Rafale, and the R&D costs were so high...
There will be some frictions, it's sure, but there is a common goal : using the best technological assets of each, and sharing the huge costs.
Add that Germany has the lead for the future MBT. In case of failure they also know that France has the know how to study alone a MBT....

For export : it was true. And France has cleared the way before inking the first R&D developpment phase with Germany, with a new GtoG agreement. It was clearly a go/no go request from the France point of view.
 
Bon Plan said:
The French are the sole to be able to study from A to Z a new fighter.
The Spanich and the German are aware of that. And they know that the EF is not technicallly as successfull as Rafale, and the R&D costs were so high...
There will be some frictions, it's sure, but there is a common goal : using the best technological assets of each, and sharing the huge costs.
Add that Germany has the lead for the future MBT. In case of failure they also know that France has the know how to study alone a MBT....

For export : it was true. And France has cleared the way before inking the first R&D developpment phase with Germany, with a new GtoG agreement. It was clearly a go/no go request from the France point of view.
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As long as the Germans and Spanish steer clear of the main NGF development, the program will work out fine. If they start interfering, especially the case when a new govt shows up after an election, then the program will get delayed, funding requirements will increase and the program will go down the same way the Typhoon did.

And the problem is this:
using the best technological assets of each,

So who decides? The way I see it, the French have the best technological assets. But the Germans and Spanish will most likely disagree. And if something as complex as NGF is to succeed, the French have to work on the airframe, engine, core avionics and combat cloud on their own. If any one of those is shared, then the end product will be not as good as it should be. And any possible correction will require more money and more time, which is what both Typhoon and F-35 suffer from. But both countries are definitely going to want to put their foot in the door, since that's where most of the money is.

www.defensenews.com

Spain’s Indra claims lead in EU electronic-warfare push for future aircraft

The project could become a precursor for the radar-jamming capabilities of the Future Combat Air System, a French-German-Spanish collaboration, according to industry sources.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com
Spanish military-electronics specialist Indra has claimed the lead in a program meant to equip future European military aircraft with new electronic-warfare capabilities, according to a company announcement.

Indra is the Spanish national industry lead for FCAS, while Airbus and Dassault play those roles for Germany and France, respectively. Spain’s defense companies expect one-third of the business flowing from the program, an Indra spokesman told Defense News.

Airbus DS, on the other hand, will take the lead for the network of sensors and systems into which NGWS will be integrated – the Future Combat Air System - and which is envisioned as integrated network of space-based assets, manned and unmanned aircraft, missiles and other ISR and EW assets manage the aerospace war.

Much remains to be decided, however, in terms of which assets will be combined into SCAF/FCAS; the definition of their missions and thus their technical requirements as well as who will design and produce them. These systems range from missiles to satellites to ground-based radars to other sensors, the elaboration of tactical and strategic orders of battle, and fusing them into a common operational picture. This aspect of the development work will also be led by Airbus.

That's a lot of important work France will end up not doing.
 
randomradio said:
The French program is at a higher risk of failing because they have very dubious partners. Both Spain and Germany are the least trusted amongst the EFT partners. And Germany will be the biggest political hurdle when it comes to exports, they don't like exporting weapons to countries that have a high possibility of going to war. Also, both Germany and Spain are incompetent, they do not have anything significant to offer, and if they do end up contributing to the aircraft, then the FCAS will be all the worse for it.

Britain has the best partners, particularly Sweden, although even Sweden has issues selling jets to some questionable countries, including those that can potentially go to war. But both Italy and Sweden have accomplished aerospace industries.
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That's the case but the French deliberately chose weak partners so that they can push through whatever primary requirements they want. The Germans and Spaniards don't really have any needs. The French did it solo this time they will just use German and Spanish finances and do it solo again. The tempest seems ambitious in certain degrees but might end up in the typhoon route again. Plus they don't have a naval version unlike the scaf...
 
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randomradio said:
How come?
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It's the way they want the project managed. It's out of question for them to give long-term funding, they insist in slicing everything into single-year steps with a complete contract renegotiation every year. They hope that this way they will get to gradually take over more and more workshare by each time making more demands with the threat of vetoing funding.

Instead of being overseen by the defense ministry, it's overseen by the Bundestag -- so it's members of Parliament who decide if the project goes ahead. They don't know anything about military technology. They don't care a bit about what the armies need. What they care about is getting money for the factories in their Länder, and that's all. So the project is basically doomed unless France manages to hold the lines against German greed and incompetence.

A large part of the problem is that the Germans are suffering from Dunning-Kruger: they're convinced of their own superiority in all domains of industry, and incapable of admitting that the French can be ahead of them in strategic domains. The specialists are more aware of their own limits, of course -- Dirk Hoke admitted that Dassault made a better job with the Rafale than Airbus with the Typhoon, for example -- but the average German politician in the Bundestag is hopped up on "Deutsch Quälitat" propaganda and therefore incapable of understanding that what they're doing is going to result in an expensive failure.
 
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A Person said:
It's the way they want the project managed. It's out of question for them to give long-term funding, they insist in slicing everything into single-year steps with a complete contract renegotiation every year. They hope that this way they will get to gradually take over more and more workshare by each time making more demands with the threat of vetoing funding.

Instead of being overseen by the defense ministry, it's overseen by the Bundestag -- so it's members of Parliament who decide if the project goes ahead. They don't know anything about military technology. They don't care a bit about what the armies need. What they care about is getting money for the factories in their Länder, and that's all. So the project is basically doomed unless France manages to hold the lines against German greed and incompetence.

A large part of the problem is that the Germans are suffering from Dunning-Kruger: they're convinced of their own superiority in all domains of industry, and incapable of admitting that the French can be ahead of them in strategic domains. The specialists are more aware of their own limits, of course -- Dirk Hoke admitted that Dassault made a better job with the Rafale than Airbus with the Typhoon, for example -- but the average German politician in the Bundestag is hopped up on "Deutsch Quälitat" propaganda and therefore incapable of understanding that what they're doing is going to result in an expensive failure.
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The Dassault skill is world wide known. Even the americans are impressed by a so small company (14000 people) able to produce the sole jets that can be a match for US ones. So FCAS leadership is french, naturally.

The Leopard and Leopard 2 are best sellers, most than the french counter parts (AMX30 and Leclerc) : The lead is taken by the german side, naturally.

The two partners have strong interests to remain united. There will be some frictions, sure, but I'm optimistic because there is no real option, and every one knows that.
 
Bon Plan said:
The Leopard and Leopard 2 are best sellers, most than the french counter parts (AMX30 and Leclerc) : The lead is taken by the german side, naturally.
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IMO the Leclerc is much better than the Leopard 2, which did not exactly shine in battle so far... But French doctrine is based much more on air superiority and sees tanks as more of a niche platform. The French army has only about 220 Leclerc tanks! So even though IMO Nexter would do a better job if they worked alone than as the junior partner to KMW, it's worth sacrificing good tanks in exchange for good fighters.

But for the Germans it's not sufficient. Maybe they realize that armored vehicles are less important than advanced fighter-bombers. So they want the lead on the tanks and on the fighter, and they'll keep dithering and renegotiating to get it.
 
A Person said:
It's the way they want the project managed. It's out of question for them to give long-term funding, they insist in slicing everything into single-year steps with a complete contract renegotiation every year. They hope that this way they will get to gradually take over more and more workshare by each time making more demands with the threat of vetoing funding.

Instead of being overseen by the defense ministry, it's overseen by the Bundestag -- so it's members of Parliament who decide if the project goes ahead. They don't know anything about military technology. They don't care a bit about what the armies need. What they care about is getting money for the factories in their Länder, and that's all. So the project is basically doomed unless France manages to hold the lines against German greed and incompetence.

A large part of the problem is that the Germans are suffering from Dunning-Kruger: they're convinced of their own superiority in all domains of industry, and incapable of admitting that the French can be ahead of them in strategic domains. The specialists are more aware of their own limits, of course -- Dirk Hoke admitted that Dassault made a better job with the Rafale than Airbus with the Typhoon, for example -- but the average German politician in the Bundestag is hopped up on "Deutsch Quälitat" propaganda and therefore incapable of understanding that what they're doing is going to result in an expensive failure.
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Okay, even without all the obvious R&D hurdles Germany's gonna place on the program, they are gonna make it worse with the worst kinda bureaucracy possible. Yeah, this program is not going anywhere if there's yearly renegotiation.

What I think is France shoud develop its own core avionics on a common airframe and engine, and allow them to do what they want on their airframe and engine. Then they can produce it to their heart's content. This is pretty much what Russia planned to do with India.
 
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A Person said:
Let's be honest: Germany is more hindrance than help.

I'd even say that the best chance of the Tempest program is that Germany is not in the loop.
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Wait until they start beefing about not wanting to fund a naval variant and over workshare for the powerplant.
randomradio said:
Okay, even without all the obvious R&D hurdles Germany's gonna place on the program, they are gonna make it worse with the worst kinda bureaucracy possible. Yeah, this program is not going anywhere if there's yearly renegotiation.
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Eurofighter didn't go anywhere until France and Germany were separated. Those two need to be kept separate.
A Person said:
IMO the Leclerc is much better than the Leopard 2.
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Then you are on your own with your opinion.
 
BMD said:
Wait until they start beefing about not wanting to fund a naval variant and over workshare for the powerplant.

Eurofighter didn't go anywhere until France and Germany were separated. Those two need to be kept separate.

Then you are on your own with your opinion.
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You don't want Germany in anything.
 
A Person said:
IMO the Leclerc is much better than the Leopard 2, which did not exactly shine in battle so far... But French doctrine is based much more on air superiority and sees tanks as more of a niche platform. The French army has only about 220 Leclerc tanks! So even though IMO Nexter would do a better job if they worked alone than as the junior partner to KMW, it's worth sacrificing good tanks in exchange for good fighters.

But for the Germans it's not sufficient. Maybe they realize that armored vehicles are less important than advanced fighter-bombers. So they want the lead on the tanks and on the fighter, and they'll keep dithering and renegotiating to get it.
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At the beginning of WWE we also had the best B1 tanks.....
The Leopard 2 lost were mainly in the bad hands of untrained turkist tankists.... no a nice try.
BMD said:
No but the Leopard 2 is better than the Leclerc
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Probably not, but the design to cost was better. So was the timing (Leclerc was late).
 
A Person said:
The "lack of training" argument can only do so much when you're talking about a NATO army.
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They were vanilla German leopard 2a4's they will be easily eaten by kornets and rpg 29's. The challenger 2 was much more heavily armoured and still got penetrated by rpg 29's ,the leopard 2a4 are outdated junk in 2020. Atleast t72 have been upgraded to have era leopard 2a4's are literally naked...
 
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