IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi

[Milspec]

The IAF has not bungled up the acquisition process. We simply don't have the money. What they need has not changed at all.
.

Lets see, Every chance to earn kick backs, IAF has capitalized. PC7 from day stank in the dealings, with the ACM going to lengths that they dont need a home grow trainer. The erstwhile ACM even going down the road to earn kick backs on Augusta Westland. And if you have anydoubts try talking to contractor of a BRD how honest the Garrison engineers are when comes to any MES contracts. there is a 20% cut even for local purchases thats how deep the rot is set in IAF.

RfI's sent out in 2008 still could not be completed till date, if that not a bungled up acquisition, then what exactly is dear?

 

[smestarz]

Surely, seems common sense is not common for you.

When you know a plane is not really capable to handle roles it once was able, you have choices like
a) Retire it
b) Try to envisage a different role for it,
c) Transfer them to some other country so that they can use it (in name of friendship)

Now the problem here is we have shortage of planes, and thus giving away Jagaurs is not really something that would help our cause, Also am not of the school of thought where we order more MKIs we already have enough, and having more is going to be problematic

Jaguars are not in position to launch a strike on Rawalpindi or Quettta, It is a good plane, but now the enemy has a better air defence than it had before, If you look at the specifications of Jaguar 5 hardpoints with capability to carry 4.5 tons of load, and with dry thrust of total less than 50kN and wet thrust less than 65, Tejas is in a way better in terms of specifications..

Now since, if you now send Jags on mission to strike Pak Targets deep in Pak territory, there are less chance of any of them returning, considering that Pak has bolstered its defences, and nowadays Lo Lo Lo Missions due to better air defences, it would not be easy to evade those.

So rather than retire those Jags, it would be better to use them in CAS operations. Arm it with laser guided missiles or even with NAG misiles on MERS and make them somewhat capable to fly and carry out anti tank missions if need be,

As per me the days of Jag as deep strike plane are over, not that its less capable but its that enemy is more capable now.

And if you cannot understand this then then truly common sense is not common there

So what? Dude... We have 120+ Jags. What do you want to do? Replace them with non-existent MKIs when the Jags are good for another 20 years?

I thought you had more common sense than this.

 

[smestarz]

Please do come with logical point why we need Rafale
Dont blabber like Pappu "... mujhe PM banna hai .. " and having no clue about national poliitics.
Do come up with your view about why we need more Rafales, and done come up with point like "we have taken two bases and so we need more nos .. " thats old and lame excuse.

I make it a point not to discuss with people who are generally clueless about everything.

It doesn't matter how good the MKI is, we need Rafale.

 

[smestarz]

I guess it would be repeated till you come with a nice explaination or perhaps comparision where Rafale is more capable than Su-30 MKI
In most of the calculations and scenarios, Su-30 MKI tops Rafale, So there is no explaination

BTW are you not the same one who was called someones "jooru" ?? Do correct me if I am wrong

Dude... You don't know anything about aircraft. And this has been repeated far too many times, so there's no point repeating it ever again.

 

[smestarz]

Just a point here about this particular point
When MRCA was started, if you remember then Dassault was already going to close the line of Mirage 2000 thus implying that its an old plane, and Rafale was already in production and operational in French air force., Thus IAF wanted to replace its old MiG-21 with old Mirage 2000
So how well does your statement (which have marked in bold) hold? Also I do remember you were one of the guys who was of the opinion that we should buy 2nd hand Mirage 2000 from UAE (a few years ago)

It seems you say something and you believe something else, Seems you tilt both ways (literally)

When it comes to Russian planes, seems you hold your opinion, but when its French, you are willing to consider 2nd hand plane as new?? WOW

MKI can be used for strike roles, that doesn't mean it's been designed for strike roles.

.......................

And I mentioned Rafale and AMCA because you replace your old aircraft with new aircraft, not another old aircraft.

 

[Milspec]

So what? Dude... We have 120+ Jags. What do you want to do? Replace them with non-existent MKIs when the Jags are good for another 20 years?

I thought you had more common sense than this.

Post-2025, the MKI is history. .

Do you not see something off here, Jags have another good 20 years, while MKI's you say aint no good post 2025? especially when the last of them will finish in 2019?

 

[smestarz]

Congress might favour Russia because bribes are easy to come by. I am very sure there were huge bribes paid even for Vikramaditya when the price was escalated. Even Dassault is known to have paid bribes. So you might add even Dassault to that group.

It is not like NaMo prefers West and not Russia, but NaMo is trying to understand the implications of doing business, With Israel he does not have issues because Israel has nothing against India and at no point is Israel alarmed with growth of Indian defence, Rather Israel sees itself as having big chunk of Indian defence,
The French, the Americans and the Russians are the ones to lose most.
UPA and Congress has done a lot of business with Russia without actually thinking of implications or any foresight, We have purchased T-90 tanks without its Passive protection SHTORA system.. By that way T-90 would be partially better than T-72..
We have signed T-90 with ToT and we have not pressured Russia to give the ToT. and there was a possibility that UPA could have signed another deal to get the ToT for the gun.
So, the Modi govt has to access what was promised and what was delivered, and then put pressure on the respective countries to deliver what was promised before buying NEW weapons, Only those critical for national security (perhaps like S-400) would be signed, as that might in a way negate the threat of Pak nuclear threat.

Su-57 would come eventually but only after the actual promised version with item 30 engine is flying. As then IAF might truly be able to evaluate Su-57 as it is actually.

Rafale, we would have 36 and I guess those are enough to eventually take over the role of Mirage 2000 in future (of course Mirage 2000 will remain in service)

If you do not know what happened perhaps you should try and read , Mirage 2000 was in a way ordered by Rajiv Gandhi (his mom was PM then) and we can guess why he ordered but then the Defence Minister Venkaraman then went and ordered MiG-29 from Russia. In any situation, MiG-29 are more capable than Mirage 2000 and this has been well documented.

IAF would never order F-16, it certainly does not make sense that we order Short range MRCA from other countries when we have our own plane waiting for orders?

Congress-HAL-Russia need to be seen as one single group.

Congress favors Russia while BJP favors West.

PSUs like HAL have always been Russia's preferred partners while West prefers private Indian partners.

IAF's first preference is French (RAFALEs/Mirage) and second preference is non-Russian (SU-30/35, MIG-29/35, PAK-FA/FGFA) and non-Indian (Marut/LCA/MCA).

IAF wants to avoid the repeat of M2K scenario for RALALEs. They were forced by MOD/GoI then to go for MIGs curtailing the M2K numbers.

IAF would only agree to go for F-16s after enough number of Rafales have been procured. They will stone wall the F-16 deal being pushed by Modi by showing their superfluous love for LCA MK1A or LCA MK2 to buy time.

 

[smestarz]

He does have a tendency to talk out of his rear

Do you not see something off here, Jags have another good 20 years, while MKI's you say aint no good post 2025? especially when the last of them will finish in 2019?

 

[dadeechi]

Congress might favour Russia because bribes are easy to come by. I am very sure there were huge bribes paid even for Vikramaditya when the price was escalated. Even Dassault is known to have paid bribes. So you might add even Dassault to that group.

It is not like NaMo prefers West and not Russia, but NaMo is trying to understand the implications of doing business, With Israel he does not have issues because Israel has nothing against India and at no point is Israel alarmed with growth of Indian defence, Rather Israel sees itself as having big chunk of Indian defence,
The French, the Americans and the Russians are the ones to lose most.
UPA and Congress has done a lot of business with Russia without actually thinking of implications or any foresight, We have purchased T-90 tanks without its Passive protection SHTORA system.. By that way T-90 would be partially better than T-72..
We have signed T-90 with ToT and we have not pressured Russia to give the ToT. and there was a possibility that UPA could have signed another deal to get the ToT for the gun.
So, the Modi govt has to access what was promised and what was delivered, and then put pressure on the respective countries to deliver what was promised before buying NEW weapons, Only those critical for national security (perhaps like S-400) would be signed, as that might in a way negate the threat of Pak nuclear threat.

Su-57 would come eventually but only after the actual promised version with item 30 engine is flying. As then IAF might truly be able to evaluate Su-57 as it is actually.

Rafale, we would have 36 and I guess those are enough to eventually take over the role of Mirage 2000 in future (of course Mirage 2000 will remain in service)

If you do not know what happened perhaps you should try and read , Mirage 2000 was in a way ordered by Rajiv Gandhi (his mom was PM then) and we can guess why he ordered but then the Defence Minister Venkaraman then went and ordered MiG-29 from Russia. In any situation, MiG-29 are more capable than Mirage 2000 and this has been well documented.

IAF would never order F-16, it certainly does not make sense that we order Short range MRCA from other countries when we have our own plane waiting for orders?

Why do you think corruption happens when the deals are with PSUs and there would be no corruption when the deal are with private players?

 

[Noodler]

seems that French have really done some fantastic job on Kaveri.

How have they done it so quickly? Im sure they just swapped parts with the M88 for some improvements.

 

[vstol Jockey]

How have they done it so quickly? Im sure they just swapped parts with the M88 for some improvements.

All along French maintained that Kaveri is nearly 75% done. its not just the core only but using better materials for same parts and changing the pressure ratios does not take much time. Plus the work has been going on for last over an year and it will take some more time to complete it. What we know is very initial inputs.

 

[Aashish]

Few pointers

Kaveri

1. There is a large consensus based on test data that M88 family of engines powered by M88-4 and M88-3 cores is enough for LCA series of aircrafts with Wet Thrust reaching 1XX Kn.
2. There is a new generation MXX family core which is being tested for the Safranised Kaveri upgrade program
3. The MTBF of all the Safranised Kaveri family as of now is lower than M88 Family used in France.
4. Focus has been on increased thrust and limited life but better than Russian counterparts used in IAF/IN.
5. ECO pack like feature development to optimise and prolong life and MTBF at par with new generation of M88 has started parallely.

LCA

1. As said earlier LCA Mk2 needs almost all system, subsystems and components from the scratch and is now termed as donor parts.
2. It needs a new airframe bcz no airframe is finalized for the Mk2 project as per the 200+ planes.
3. There are almost 150+ improvements planned from LCA Mk1 to LCA MK1A. (more than what is being said in public)
4. Few include air intake, aerodynamic shaping, subsystem structure, performance, and size. This is as of now very wide and will be shortlisted further to trim it down with most parts planned initially from F-16 and Rafale. With no clarity for F-16, the chance of Rafale parts inside has increased a lot more. The performance parameters of Mk1A is now much better (as targeted) then before (details to be out in coming months).
5. LCA Mk1A aerodynamic performance changes need metallurgical changes which are taking time, so the timeline is a challenge which HAL is not ready to admit in public.

Rafale

1. Owing to increased reliance in Rafales and the whole ecosystem creation, MOD is planning to go back to original plan of ordering more from Merignac Line and twice of that from Indian Line.
2. This has brightened the prospect of a further off the shelf purchase at much lower price than before.
3. DRAL otoh has been pushing for a more concrete order and step towards MII and its expected that Prz Macron visit will see some detailed briefing in this regard.
4. That should be good as IAF and IN both has flagged critical necessary of Rafales owing to upgraded security threat emerging in and around our country and region.
5. MRCBF point is being pushed aggressively as IAC1 needs a direction for airwing and planned modification. So IN top brass wants MOD to come clear with a decision.

 

[Ashwin]

Mig-21/Mig-23 > MKI and LCA
Mig-23/Mig-27 > Rafale
Mig-29/M2000 > FGFA
Jaguar > AMCA

This is the official replacement list for the IAF.

Correction:

However, the air chief believes that the AMCA's promise compensates for uncertainty over the FGFA. Says Raha, "If the FGFA comes through it is fine, otherwise the Indian FGFA - that is the AMCA, the advanced medium combat aircraft - we still have over 15 years to work on it before the MiG-29 upgraded aircraft retire, before the Mirage 2000 upgraded ones retire, as well as Jaguar upgraded ones retire in another 15 years."

I have said this multiple times. IAF want to replace Mig-29/M2000/Jaguar D III (9 sqd) with AMCA after 2030.

Jaguar D I/II may get replaced by FGFA (3 sqd)

 

[randomradio]

I call BS on this one. We have configured multiple exercises with 3 MKI carrying Strike element, 2 MKI as escorts and 4 M29's as High Alt Air Sup configs N number of times.
MKI's have been configured for strike as well as Air Sup configs multiple times when I was around.

You didn't understand. All these are single role aircraft for each mission. Okay, you want to use MKI as strike, then that MKI will stay as a striker from take off to landing. It's only very recently that the MKI has achieved some levels of swing role capability.

Funny thing is all you mention about Rafales above, MKI's have been doing for IAF for the past one and half decade.

Nope. Very few aircraft have done that.

France's Rafale fighter proves its 'omnirole' skills
Dassault describes its Rafale as being an "omnirole" fighter, a tag that it says denotes the type's ability to perform multiple mission types simultaneously. This differs from the widely adopted multi-role description used by its rivals largely as a result of the aircraft's ability to provide its pilot with data fused from onboard sensors, it says.

Funny how MKI's are toast post 2025, but te mighty Jag will continue to give it's stellar performance till 2040.

Yes, because it's all mission specific. As long as the MKI does its job in protecting the Jaguar, the Jaguar can deliver its payload. That's its purpose. But if the MKI fails, the Jaguar will fail obviously. And the failure rate of the MKI will keep increasing as time passes. This is what we call obsolescence.

Well they did, from 150 to 270 of em, and take it what its worth, it will baloon to 300. Not much you or I can do about it.

There is a request for 36 more. No idea if it will be exercised.

But that isn't the point I am making. We already have too many MKIs. Even if you buy 500 MKIs, the IAF will still insist on the Rafales.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

LCA

1. As said earlier LCA Mk2 needs almost all system, subsystems and components from the scratch and is now termed as donor parts.
2. It needs a new airframe bcz no airframe is finalized for the Mk2 project as per the 200+ planes.
3. There are almost 150+ improvements planned from LCA Mk1 to LCA MK1A. (more than what is being said in public)
4. Few include air intake, aerodynamic shaping, subsystem structure, performance, and size. This is as of now very wide and will be shortlisted further to trim it down with most parts planned initially from F-16 and Rafale. With no clarity for F-16, the chance of Rafale parts inside has increased a lot more. The performance parameters of Mk1A is now much better (as targeted) then before (details to be out in coming months).
5. LCA Mk1A aerodynamic performance changes need metallurgical changes which are taking time, so the timeline is a challenge which HAL is not ready to admit in public.

The most important aspect of the Tejas Programme is meeting the TIME lines

If Mk 1 A does not start Serial production by 2020 ; it will be a Huge Blow to the credibility
of ADA and HAL

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

@randomradio Whether you like it or not IAF will have SU 30 as its Main stay till 2050

Su 30 will be the Mig 21 of this century ; in terms of numbers

The PAK FA deal is getting no where ; LCA Tejas will get delayed as USUAL

US Planes are also a Big head ache for the Government

You have to sign CISMOA ; BECA

AMCA is a paper project ; Rafales are expensive and have Also Now become Controversial

Any JOINT Venture with AMBANI Before 2019 election
is Politically suicidal for Modi

The 36 Rafales will be available till 2022 ; maybe we will buy 18 more off the shelf

And Made In India Rafales will NOT be available before 2022

So what is available ; It is ONLY The Su 30 ; We will keep maufacturing them till 2025
and keep upgrading them

PAK FA / FGFA is possible only if we get A new Engine and Substantial TOT

Even the Russians are making Only 12 PAK FA ( Su 57 ) with the Old engine

 

[vstol Jockey]

• There is a large consensus based on test data that M88 family of engines powered by M88-4 and M88-3 cores is enough for LCA series of aircrafts with Wet Thrust reaching 1XX Kn.

• There is a new generation MXX family core which is being tested for the Safranised Kaveri upgrade program

• The MTBF of all the Safranised Kaveri family as of now is lower than M88 Family used in France.

• Focus has been on increased thrust and limited life but better than Russian counterparts used in IAF/IN.

• ECO pack like feature development to optimise and prolong life and MTBF at par with new generation of M88 has started parallely.

can you put some numbers to these like thrust rating MTBF time etc.

 

[Ashwin]

Kaveri

1. There is a large consensus based on test data that M88 family of engines powered by M88-4 and M88-3 cores is enough for LCA series of aircrafts with Wet Thrust reaching 1XX Kn.
2. There is a new generation MXX family core which is being tested for the Safranised Kaveri upgrade program
3. The MTBF of all the Safranised Kaveri family as of now is lower than M88 Family used in France.
4. Focus has been on increased thrust and limited life but better than Russian counterparts used in IAF/IN.
5. ECO pack like feature development to optimise and prolong life and MTBF at par with new generation of M88 has started parallely

 

[randomradio]

Mate you are simply Going way over the line ; this is beyond crazy

Why so?

The F-35 doesn't have the speed or the altitude of the J-20. All it has for itself is stealth and that's not enough if you can't match performance in air to air fights.

F-16 Vs. F-35 In A Dogfight: JPO, Air Force Weigh In On Who’s Best
In the only interview the Air Force has done about the F-35’s capabilities and the first 10 days of a full-scale war, retired Gen. Mike Hostage of Air Combat Command, told me this: “In the first moments of a conflict I’m not sending Growlers or F-16s or F-15Es anywhere close to that environment, so now I’m going to have to put my fifth gen [aircraft] in there and that’s where that radar cross-section and the exchange of the kill chain is so critical.”

At the same time, Hostage made it clear that the F-35 is not the plane to send in for hot dogfights. It is, instead, the first US aircraft built specifically for taking out advanced Integrated Air Defense Systems (IADS) such as the Russian S-300 and S-400. The plane that would lead the way to take out enemy fighters in close-up battles would be the F-22.

“The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth,” Hostage told me, “The F-35 is geared to go out and take down the surface targets.” In fact, it takes eight F-35s to do what two F-22s can accomplish in the early stages of a war.

The F-35’s radar cross section is much smaller than the F-22’s, but that does not mean, Hostage concedes, that the F-35 is necessarily superior to the F-22 when we go to war. For those who wonder about the worth of the opinion of a general sitting behind a desk, bear in mind that Hostage flew the F-22, as well as most models of the F-15 and the F-16.

 

[Milspec]

66 F-35's delivered last year. 90 this year. And this is still 'Low Rate Initial Production'. 160 will be delivered in FRP annually. You think the Chinese can't do half of that?

Yes , I think Chinese cant do Half of that. F35 as a program is of an unprecedented scale that Chinese wont be able to conjure even if the wakandans came to their aid.