IAF to embark on a long shopping sortie for a jet – Indian Defence Research Wing
Unfortunately, this is not in the lines of what Ashish said.
Unfortunately, this is not in the lines of what Ashish said.
IAF Chronicles - A side view of whats going on behind the closed doors in New Delhi
- Thread starter Aashish
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What if Nobody is interested in parting away with their technologies
Is Dassault interested in a Fifth Generation or stealthy Rafale
Why will LM and SAAB oblige with our demands
Even Russia is not agreeing to our Conditions in PAK FA negotiations
Where does that leave the IAF ; Keep making Su 30s for ever
Indian govt needs to understand one thing. Nobody is going give them anything no matter how many billions we spend. The only way India can get these cutting edge technologies is by developing itself. It will take years, probably decades. But there is no shortcut to success.
Neither our so called demands will be Met and Nor AMCA will ever get Built
So automatically AMCA will be cancelled
DRDO is already busy with LCA MK 2 for atleast till 2025
I think they are just trying to Gain time till the next election
and then abruptly the whole Tender will be cancelled
AMCA will be built. But if goes the Tejas way, then DRDO will be developing it till 2040 and that will ensure "dana pani" for DRDO babus !!
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And no country will part with technology for whatever India can afford. If I were France/Russia, I'd not do it.
And btw, for all those over enthusiastic defense fan boys, AMCA prototype will take more than a decade let alone induction.
And those who are coming up with fighter induction numbers from their fantasies, keep fantasizing. my instinct says there will be no Kaveri.. or most probably a heavily safranised one with rights staying with France.
We'll buy some jet from some country with some TOT.
AMCA will become another drama with delays and IAF rejecting it by the time it comes.
This shit sill continue until we change our education style and our attitude towards research.
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Limited squadrons directly or via a third nation - need access for the new engine tech to improve home engines. Also play up with the tech to see what can be domestically "inspired"
If India does nt buy FGFA or off the shelf PAKFAs, Russia is free to offer it to China or any other nation. Its business afterall.
@Indx TechStyle
V1 uses a M88-3 core as per what i had heard. This core was developed and used to test engines which required bigger intake and was able to produce 90Kn thrust ratings but had reduced life owing to wear and tear part and heating issues. Now the time of M88-3 test and technology of today has seen upgrades and better new metallurgical stuff. But i am not sure embarking for a full new M88-3 is what Safran was looking at owing to budget and perhaps new orders for such engines. Thus the whole development and IPR is with the erstwhile stakeholders.
V2 is from a core which needs Joint development. The present core from M88 family can theoretically support closer to 110-112 Kn thrust. But none of that was actually fully developed as need of that was never there.
Its due to this episode, when a new core was used for increased thrust variant of Kaveri, there was a small incident as well owing to almost mindboggling performance numbers captured which changed the whole game scenario. Inspite of Kaveri taking time, the potential upside for Kaveri series is much higher as its not fully deployable as well as perfected.
The challenge now is avoiding full military thrust ratings and damping it a bit to kind of balance the performance, maintenance and engine life.
Why V2 is needed for Rafale?
Systematically as Rafale is getting evolved there is a substantial weight addition of subsystems. The systems inspite of being compact, are slowly becoming heavy with enhanced capabilities. The full F4.2 with almost all dynamic capabilities will see a new creeping additional weight closer to 1 tonne. On top, the performance degradation will occur when its fully loaded (heavy configuration) and curtailment to say Gs. The extra thrust and new performance boost will help Rafale move few more things internally, opening up certain points to carry multi configurations for certain operations. The biggest boost will be that omnirole Rafale performance will remain consistent in every possible condition
Will the current airframe be able to take so much Load
Even now ; Rafale is the only plane which carries as much Load as its own empty weight
The current airframe is optimised for current configurations but still a 83Kn engine or a 10% improvement in thrust will be a welcome addition.
the TWR is still awesome.. But in future with upgrades, it will come down. Hence need new engines if weight is not curtailed. As an addition, this new engine will enhance MTOW of Rafale as well by almost 20-25%. Now thats a welcome addition if you can with a marginal increase in dimension leading to more internal fuel and opening up certain wet points.......
So Rafale F 4 will involve some Airframe changes also
By the way is Dassault planning a Rafale NG ie Stealthy Rafale
If we have to invest 6 Billion in PAK FA /FGFA ; why not invest the same amount in A Stealthy Rafale
Any timeline on when this tender will reach to a conclusion and IAF starts adding anything significant to its inventory?
I don't think the original plan of FGFA is feasible any more. I mean what is left in Su-57 to be developed or can be developed by HAL? The best case scenario will be Su-57 with new engines, acceptable level of stealth and 5th gen long range weapons with decent quality sensor fusion systems. India will be more than happy to buy 3/4 sqdns of MKIed version of that.
No matter how much money India put into Rafale, it can never be converted to a true blue 5th gen fighter. Best bet for India will be joint development of AMCA with Dassault. If left to DRDO, AMCA will be a replay of Tejas story !!
That is the real Question which has not been answered
That is whether European Manufacturers are really interested in Fifth Generation or not
France and Germany Plan New 5th Generation Fighter, is it an Opportunity for India? – Indian Defence Research Wing
So can India join this project
If you look at the development cost of F-35, I doubt European countries are in a position to afford such expenses. Anyway most European countries have already committed to buy F-35.
I am not sure Germany and France can commit enough numbers to make the project commercially viable. They are finding it difficult to order enough Typhoons and Rafales. Plus there is no compelling reasons for them to increase their sqdn strengths as well. There is no imminent threat looming over them.
India can be the solution to both the problems. If jointly developed with France and/or Germany, significant amount of development work can be outsourced to India and that will reduce development costs. By the time this aircraft is ready for induction, India will be a 10 trillion $ economy and will require at least 200-300 jets to replace M-2000, Mig-29 and Jaguars and that kind of number will bring down per jet cost.
All said and done, who can fix our Babus? If Modi comes back to power in 2019, then we might see some concrete steps. Otherwise it will be the same old story!!
I think our MOD babus live in a parallel universe where ALL countries are Lining up
to Give away their hard earned Technology to India
If that had been the case China would have Bought ALL the Technology that
Europe and Russia possess
It is time IAF chief wrote an open letter to the PM about the declining numbers
Let me make a prediction. This is not input based but analysis based. If were in the situation of French, what I will do to get maximum advantage from India for my business is as follows,
- Delay Kaveri V1 to ensure that LCA project continues to suffer delays resulting in more orders for Rafale.
- Delayed Kaveri V1 will also knock out Mig-35 from competition leaving only as an option for IAF & IN and also knock out the new RFI to be issued soon.
- Accelerate development of Kaveri V2 with least amount of conditions and make them fit for installation on Su-30MKI aircraft.
- The present engine of Su-30MKI has TBO of 1000 hrs and max life of 2000 hrs. Majority of Indian built Su-30MKIs will need engine change starting 2022-23.
- Each su-30MKI needs two engines and they will need at least four of these engines in their remaining life time.
- IAF has a fleet of 272 MKIs likely to increase to 315. which means nearly 1260 engines.
- AMCA too will need this engine starting 2022-23 and we can assume another 1200+ engines for AMCA.
- ATAR series engines were the largest number of engines produced by France till date, Kaveri V2 will leave those numbers behind by a huge margin.
- Kaveri V1 will not reach any kind of respectable thrust levels till Rafale MII is finalised and numbers reach over 126 as was the case in MMRCA.
- Delaying Kaveri V1 on some vague pretexts and accelerating Kaveri V1 using Indian money with joint IPR will result in unimaginable benefits for Safran.
- Further delays to LCA MK1 & 2 will result in more orders for Rafale which in turn will bring unimaginable benefits to DA.
I don't think DA will make such mistake of connecting LCA with Rafale deal, they do know that India will go with GE-404 for MK1A if KV1 is not available. That'll be their own loss.
I still don't think Mig-35 is being considered by IAF yet, may be Navy might go with Migs for being cheaper than Rafale, but IAF looks very much committed to Rafale, at least 72 now looks confirmed.
You look very optimistic about KV2, achieving 123-140 kn especially for MKI doesn't look viable option, AL-41 family will be better suited with TVC.
Spain has a better TVC tech available for EJ-200. The same tech can be used by Safran for KV2.
Safran started the work on KV1 in Jan 2017 with a promise to deliver the complete engine within 18 months. We are now in 15th month and there is no KV1 as of now. I will be writing to DM what I posted here and request her to ensure that French are told in very clear language to first deliver on their promises without conditions or forget about more Rafale orders.
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