Islamic Republic of Pakistan : News, Discussions & Updates

The problem of GOI is to justify the Casualties that will happen when we go for POK ,

Casualities are one of the excuses for not going into PoK. Not the reason. Reason is the blatant lack of proactiveness.

I can't think of a single country in this world with a spine that doesn't attack even after its parliament was targeted.

As of casualties, we face casualties everyday in the CI/CT ops in J&K. Who cares about them? Is anyone taking any proactive measures to try and destroy the jihadi elements at their roots (PoK) instead of mindlessly hacking away at the branches? We are losing men anyway - but instead of losing men while fighting the cause, we are losing men fighting the symptoms.

Worst part is, we are okay with that.

Indians don't really care for POK

Majority of the average Indians don't know where the strategic interests of their nation lie and how to go about securing them. Neither do majority of Americans, or Chinese, or French. The average population is not a domain expert, or a strategic visionary. If one goes about securing national interests based on what the common citizen wants, one is doomed.

That is why elected representatives, bureaucrats and military strategists exist. Unfortunately we are not making optimum use of any of them thanks to the spinelessness of the Indian decision-makers (i.e. politicians).

The only solution now is to take such control out of the hands of the elected representatives and put it in the responsibility of some kind of deep state, which continues functioning and taking the necessary steps to secure the national interest regardless of which politician is in power. And if a politician doesn't cooperate, he should be physically or politically dealt with.

Kargil was a different matter

We were fighting to get back our own land

PoK is also our own land. That is why we call it Pakistan-occupied.

If we choose to consider PoK as "not our own", then by de facto we have given up any right to laying claim to it.
 
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Most pedophiles in UK are of Pakistani descent: British home secretary - Times of India

I, usually avoid posting news of this sort. But this accusation came from no less than the Home Secretary of the UK.

Incredibly honest and brave comment coming from a man of Pakistani descent himself. I don't know much about Sajid Javid, but I believe this is why he's been picked for his job, I've heard he's pretty tough on terror too and doesn't beat around the bush/make excuses for his community, like a lot of Muslim immigrants to the West are notorious for doing.
 
Now only if India could do the same at UN, instead of tu tu main main.
I am surprised by his constant India bashing..... The first was small men....It makes sense if this was during election time.... Now being in power ... wonder what is he planning to achieve......Probably he is trying to woo his masters and "Selectors"....

Hope our guys shows the same maturity and keep ignoring them..... Even during elections....

UN I do not if we can ignore.... because of the very stature of body.... But then very few bothers about our tu tu mein mein.... There are others who do the same....
 
This assessment of the situation (and our stand on it) is simply incorrect. The reality is that there is absolutely no intent on the part of the Government of India to initiate any kind of large scale military action with the objective of capturing PoK.

No intent whatsoever.

Golden opportunities for launching such a campaign have come and gone, with no interest shown by the Indian decision-makers to act. The most recent was the period drawing up to their relatively recent general elections. The country was a mess, with most of the Army's strength deployed internally (to the point were PA was making peace overtures toward India). And what did we do? Nothing.

"But in Pak's case, all we'll need is a decent excuse."

Pakistan gives us about a dozen decent excuses per month in the form of jihadi cross-LoC infiltrations. At least one major excuse once every few years in the form of a sizeable ISI-sponsered terrorist attack against civilians and/or armed forces either within India or on our overseas diplomatic missions, and an un-redeemable excuse about once a decade or so in the form of a major incident (Parliament attack, Kargil, 26/11 etc.).

The problem is not about them giving us an excuse. That is the weakest argument. The problem is what the Indian decision-maker is willing to do about it - which is found lacking. Modi is not some farishta. In many ways, he's similar to the usual Indian politician, and one of those ways is the manner in which our politicians think and hope that if you give a problem enough time, it will solve itself without you having to get your hands dirty. This lack of proactiveness is true with regard to Modi as well. I'm sorry but I expected more from him and he's simply not delivering.

Before anyone yells "surgical strikes", let me ask you this: What exact geopolitical equation was changed because of the surgical strikes? It was a temporary solution to what is now a permanent problem. And the only permanent solution is the capture of PoK, which the Modi government has shown no intent to execute.

The powers-that-be in Pakistan and China have now fully realized that the Indian state is willing to exert no influence or military strength in a contested region beyond its own borders (or the area which we administer) and as long as they don't try to initiate all-out military conflict by bringing their military inside these borders (thereby not having to face the brunt of the Indian Military's strength), they can have their way with how they choose to shape the geopolitical lines all around India.

I'll tell you where this is likely to go from here. No matter how much the Pakistani military might develop, China will not consider them as capable enough to prevent an Indian capture of PoK (if and when we choose to act), as a result they will seek to exert some level of direct or indirect control of PoK (read, large-scale Chinese military presence), much like how they control Shaksgham Valley. This is because if they are unable to retain control over PoK, the physical link between Pak and China will be cut, CPEC will fall apart, as well as a very important leg of BRI. There's no telling how much importance China ascribes to PoK, and why they will go to any length to defend it.

And if GoI is unwilling to fight through a bunch of Pakistanis to get PoK, what are the chances that we will be willing to fight through a bunch of Pakistanis AND Chinese?

I just wish to say, rather, warn...that the window on PoK is closing fast. The time to act is ASAP.

With Nawaz Sharif going behind bars, there exists a possibility that a massive politically-orchestrated divide between Sunni Punjabis and Pashtuns develops in Pakistan (and we should support it in any way possible via intelligence). If such a divide reaches a peak with it requiring massive Pak military internal deployments, that would be a potential golden moment again - in which a military capture of PoK might become a feasibility.

But are the Indian decision-makers ready or even willing to make such moves?

After the way Pakistan has systematically *censored*ized the demographics there with the worst kind of fanatic Punjabis, do we really even want all of PoK? The only way I see retaking PoK as a good idea is if India finds some way to either skirt or completely brazen out international condemnation while killing/driving away those masses which are rabidly Islamist/anti-India. Because if the choice is strictly between taking PoK, warts and all, with all of its artificial "Kashmiris" or not taking PoK at all, I think I'd rather not take PoK at all. At this point, I'd also have to ask, which type of war are we discussing? Are we discussing the type of short, small, quick war in which you have to maximize punishment on Pak in response to some trigger and try to snatch a small advantage or two? Or are we discussing the type of final, epic, definitive war where discussions like knocking out Pak's nuclear assets/charging through TNW blasts etc start to become highly likely events? My thoughts and goals vary drastically depending on which one we're talking about.

Back to PoK, if there is no way to seismically alter the demography during war, in my opinion, the smartest thing to do would be to capture crucial features that can help India shut out infiltration into J&K and that can give India a tight grip over key Pakistani & Chinese positions and highways etc., and then focus on altering the demography of J&K. This is also where my earlier question of "what type of war," kicks in; if we're talking about a final, definitive, grand war, where India (with or without other countries) may have already knocked out all or most of Pak's nukes or if Pak has already set off a few TNW's (to little effect on ground, but huge escalation effect) and Indian formations are charging through - then I think India has to view this as a once in a lifetime opportunity to settle the Pakistan problem once and for all, and should perform a demographic cleanse of PoK that makes it more amenable to being absorbed back into India. In that hypothetical scenario, India must see things through to absolute completion regardless of what any other country or organization may say or threaten. In this scenario, India must deliver an independent Balochistan and Sindh, India must cleanse PoK demographically & re-absorb it, and India must ensure that the dispute between Afghanistan and Pakistan over Pasthun territory is also definitively settled on Afghanistan's terms.

Now, where you say that opportunities have come and gone, but India has done nothing - you also have to ask, how ready and capable was India to rapidly initiate and complete hostilities with all objectives attained? The different Armed Services still seem to be working on synergizing (and that too without CDS & Theater Commands), equipment shortages are well known, as is the obsolescence of some of our equipment due to sloth paced modernization and budgetary constraints. And since we're no longer discussing the hypothetical scenario I just got done talking about, we would also likely have to revert to factoring in usual constraints like optics, international pressure, the effect on our own economic development etc. The situation will be far more favorable around the mid-2020's. By then a lot of our key new defense purchases will have arrived (Rafales, S-400, attack helicopters, artillery guns, more T-90 tanks etc). Pakistan will likely be an even bigger mess, with even more financial and social problems, and the world will be even sicker of them than it currently is - hence making the international community more amenable towards some sort of solution to the Pakistan problem. At the same time, India's economic growth will mean that it would make less and less sense for any major country interested in trade to oppose our actions.

As for Pakistan giving excuses, once the mid-2020's roll around, India will be much better placed to retaliate on its own terms without a lot of the constraints that have existed for a very long time. When I say a decent excuse, I mean something like 26/11 which can easily justify a real war, something that would make it difficult for other countries to lecture India on restraint once India takes the plunge and kicks off hostilities.

Regarding the Surgical Strikes, those were more about 1) Retaliating after all the terror attacks that have gone by relatively unpunished, as a collective catharsis for India's military and citizenry; and also for the sake of India's face in the world 2) Setting a foot down and calling the nuclear bluff. The surgical strikes definitively showed that there is a limit to how much India will tolerate and that if Pakistan pushes things in that direction, even conflict with a nuclear backdrop isn't unthinkable. This is a significant shift from the past when one statement with nuclear saber rattling by any Pak minister could successfully cow India down and stop it from justifiably retaliating to Pakistan's various antics, allowing us to sink back into our "responsible, restrained nation" pit where we would continue to wallow. To that end, the change in mindset and posture, to where both the Government and our Defense Chiefs now openly and matter-of-factly discuss pre-emptive strikes on Pakistani nukes, pushing through TNW strikes etc is a landmark shift. Pakistan can only pretend to be crazy and scare us off of retaliating as long as we choose to believe the routine, and there are signs that India is finally refusing to play along.

As for the point on the PoK window and Chinese deployments, I wouldn't be so sure that that's not the case already. if India is to make any major move in PoK that would seriously upset the Chinese applecart, it should probably factor in the possibility of fighting Pakistan and China to be on the safe side. If Chinese troops are present in PoK, and die in combat, India could make the argument that they had no business being there, and that, as a result, these are flimsy grounds for China to launch any aggression. But while that argument would have merit, it wouldn't guarantee the fact that China won't retaliate/escalate.

And as I said, for that, we need a couple more years to beef up.
 
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After the way Pakistan has systematically *censored*ized the demographics there with the worst kind of fanatic Punjabis, do we really even want all of PoK? The only way I see retaking PoK as a good idea is if India finds some way to either skirt or completely brazen out international condemnation while killing/driving away those masses which are rabidly Islamist/anti-India. Because if the choice is strictly between taking PoK, warts and all, with all of its artificial "Kashmiris" or not taking PoK at all, I think I'd rather not take PoK at all.

Taking PoK is not something for us to do out of choice - we have to do it in order to secure our national interests. Cutting off the physical link between Pakistan and China is in our interest. Letting this link fester will only contribute toward it becoming an insurmountable problem in the future, and if a few Pakjabi settlers are enough to deter us from acting in our self interest, then we have no place in this world.

Once the Pak military itself has been driven out, maintaining control over the territory is no different from what we do in J&K today. We will have every right to the land (thanks to the Instrument of Accession) and we are free to implement any means deemed necessary to establish and support the rule of law. No UN panel or international group can condemn an operation against armed militants.

As long as US is with us, the UN or any such body is toothless.

A large scale CI/CT operation over a period of 4-5 years should be enough to wipe out most if not all jihadi elements in PoK.

At this point, I'd also have to ask, which type of war are we discussing? Are we discussing the type of short, small, quick war in which you have to maximize punishment on Pak in response to some trigger and try to snatch a small advantage or two? Or are we discussing the type of final, epic, definitive war where discussions like knocking out Pak's nuclear assets/charging through TNW blasts etc start to become highly likely events? My thoughts and goals vary drastically depending on which one we're talking about.

A short, high-intensity limited war involving land & air forces. In other words, sort of a 'reverse Kargil', but with air support. The way I see it, Pak is not stupid enough to use TNWs unless India starts rolling armored forces across the IB into Pak Punjab or Sindh, as doing so will inevitably lead to a nuclear conflict where it will be Pakjab which will be destroyed as a result.

TNWs are for when the Pak heartland is threatened by Indian ground forces advance.

Back to PoK, if there is no way to seismically alter the demography during war, in my opinion, the smartest thing to do would be to capture crucial features that can help India shut out infiltration into J&K and that can give India a tight grip over key Pakistani & Chinese positions and highways etc., and then focus on altering the demography of J&K. This is also where my earlier question of "what type of war," kicks in; if we're talking about a final, definitive, grand war, where India (with or without other countries) may have already knocked out all or most of Pak's nukes or if Pak has already set off a few TNW's (to little effect on ground, but huge escalation effect) and Indian formations are charging through - then I think India has to view this as a once in a lifetime opportunity to settle the Pakistan problem once and for all, and should perform a demographic cleanse of PoK that makes it more amenable to being absorbed back into India. In that hypothetical scenario, India must see things through to absolute completion regardless of what any other country or organization may say or threaten. In this scenario, India must deliver an independent Balochistan and Sindh, India must cleanse PoK demographically & re-absorb it, and India must ensure that the dispute between Afghanistan and Pakistan over Pasthun territory is also definitively settled on Afghanistan's terms.

There is no need to do everything at once.

The way things are right now, GoI is refusing to take even the first step. So it's very unrealistic when you suggest they run the whole marathon.

Now, where you say that opportunities have come and gone, but India has done nothing - you also have to ask, how ready and capable was India to rapidly initiate and complete hostilities with all objectives attained? The different Armed Services still seem to be working on synergizing (and that too without CDS & Theater Commands), equipment shortages are well known, as is the obsolescence of some of our equipment due to sloth paced modernization and budgetary constraints. And since we're no longer discussing the hypothetical scenario I just got done talking about, we would also likely have to revert to factoring in usual constraints like optics, international pressure, the effect on our own economic development etc. The situation will be far more favorable around the mid-2020's. By then a lot of our key new defense purchases will have arrived (Rafales, S-400, attack helicopters, artillery guns, more T-90 tanks etc). Pakistan will likely be an even bigger mess, with even more financial and social problems, and the world will be even sicker of them than it currently is - hence making the international community more amenable towards some sort of solution to the Pakistan problem. At the same time, India's economic growth will mean that it would make less and less sense for any major country interested in trade to oppose our actions.

As for Pakistan giving excuses, once the mid-2020's roll around, India will be much better placed to retaliate on its own terms without a lot of the constraints that have existed for a very long time. When I say a decent excuse, I mean something like 26/11 which can easily justify a real war, something that would make it difficult for other countries to lecture India on restraint once India takes the plunge and kicks off hostilities.

This is not a sound strategy, nor does it reflect the reality. Nothing is going to drastically change by mid-2020s. The status quo will continue, if not slightly skew in Pakistan's favor (in the minds of the Indian decision-maker, not in reality).

Pak will induct diesel-electric ballistic missile submarines (SSBs). Their real-world capability or survivability are technicalities which the decision-makers neither care for much, nor can understand. As a result, their deterrence value will be very high. All the decision makers will see is a second-strike capability in Pak hands. That's enough to deter any decision to launch a campaign.

And as I said, for that, we need a couple more years to beef up.

All this "we will be in better position in future" business is nonsense that's been going on since 80s. Nothing has changed and nothing will change. China will not allow Pak to be in a position where Indian leaders can think they can attack and get away with it.

To be frank, I'm truly concerned as to how the Indian leaders in the coming decade will handle the fact of Pakistan having a second-strike capability.

Also, you are mistaken if you think the ongoing procurements are some sort of prelude to executing a master plan. The intent is simply not there, neither is there any directive. What's happening is that each service is tabling their requirements (for what they each think is the best way to fight the next war) to the MoD and the people in charge are signing on the dotted line when told to do so by their secretaries. There is no grand strategy.

We are simply equipping ourselves for what we think we'll need for the next war...the time & place of which we leave to our enemies to decide.
 
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@Parthu.

Restoring ceasefire needs statesmanship, not brinkmanship: Lt Gen M M Naravane


Two-front war not a good idea, says top general


Read these two Very Recent Statements by
India's Serving Lieutenant Generals

People believe that it is the only the politicians who are opposed to War

I believe that if Today
Govt asks the Army
To start Action , they will Question
WHY , What is the need

@Hellfire. @vstol Jockey

@randomradio @Milspec

What do you think

Our Armed forces fight when their own
Paltan ki Izzat is on the line like Kargil and Uri
 
Too much India from him... And there has been a cold shoulder from our Man... Infact he has been ignored by our PM...

I guess some one should take a tuition on history of Pakistan..... He seems to be living on a lala land....

Imran seems not used to rejection, he must know India is not a lady to be charmed.

He is the same guy who could not persist with an Ahmadi in economics committee.
 
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@Parthu.

Restoring ceasefire needs statesmanship, not brinkmanship: Lt Gen M M Naravane


Two-front war not a good idea, says top general


Read these two Very Recent Statements by
India's Serving Lieutenant Generals

People believe that it is the only the politicians who are opposed to War

I believe that if Today
Govt asks the Army
To start Action , they will Question
WHY , What is the need

@Hellfire. @vstol Jockey

@randomradio @Milspec

What do you think

Our Armed forces fight when their own
Paltan ki Izzat is on the line like Kargil and Uri

There is simply no motivation - strategic or religious, good enough to cause deaths in thousands. Neither in army as an institution nor in common army men.
 
There is simply no motivation - strategic or religious, good enough to cause deaths in thousands. Neither in army as an institution nor in common army men.

This is why Pakistan has indoctrinated its
Population with Religious Hatred for India

Gen Zia was right when he said that without
Islam , Pakistan would be a B grade copy of
India

Indian population has neither the Religious
Hatred , nor Territorial Greed

Pakistan Army wants to Avenge its own Personal Humiliation , no matter what the cost for Pakistani Nation or Society

Because Pakistan as a Nation has no
Honour or Respect in the World
 
Taking PoK is not something for us to do out of choice - we have to do it in order to secure our national interests. Cutting off the physical link between Pakistan and China is in our interest. Letting this link fester will only contribute toward it becoming an insurmountable problem in the future, and if a few Pakjabi settlers are enough to deter us from acting in our self interest, then we have no place in this world.

As I said, I don't know what makes you completely confident that the Chinese aren't there already, and that they would allow India to swallow all of PoK, cutting them off permanently from Pakistan. Imagine making a play for PoK and inadvertently handing China an excuse to launch a two front war before you're actually prepared for such a conflict.

A large scale CI/CT operation over a period of 4-5 years should be enough to wipe out most if not all jihadi elements in PoK.

I really don't know how realistic that projection is. We still haven't definitively resolved J&K after 31 years and you're talking of cleaning out PoK in 4-5 years? Once we take over all of PoK; Afghanistan, with a resurgent Taliban will be our new neighbor and India will have painted an even bigger target on its back for countless Jihadi Groups.

This is not a sound strategy, nor does it reflect the reality. Nothing is going to drastically change by mid-2020s. The status quo will continue, if not slightly skew in Pakistan's favor (in the minds of the Indian decision-maker, not in reality).

S-400 alone is a massive game changer. Rafales, though few in numbers, will be more advanced than anything Pakistan and likely even China possesses. Apaches, bolstered in numbers by domestically produced attack helicopters will give India's attacking waves the sort of punch we just don't have right now. The exact same goes for all the new artillery (probably one of the most important aspects of warfare when you're trying to rush and capture an objective) we're purchasing for the first time since Bofors. How isn't that a huge leap in capability?

One thing I do agree with you about, is that China giving those submarines to Pakistan is a problem, in fact, it's a full blown defense & security disaster for India; and as far as that is concerned, I am in full support of India using whatever means necessary to scuttle that. Because next to Pakistan originally acquiring nuclear capability; this would be the next massive landmark event that seriously complicates our security and completely upsets the balance and calculations.

We are simply equipping ourselves for what we think we'll need for the next war...the time & place of which we leave to our enemies to decide.

I guess we'll see about that in the not so distant future; 2022 is literally only 3 years away now.
 
As I said, I don't know what makes you completely confident that the Chinese aren't there already, and that they would allow India to swallow all of PoK, cutting them off permanently from Pakistan. Imagine making a play for PoK and inadvertently handing China an excuse to launch a two front war before you're actually prepared for such a conflict.

China is in no position to sustain a ground war against India in the high-altitude regions. They simply don't have enough acclimatized troops or available airfields in TAR which can host a year-round air component poised against India.

They become a threat only if and when they entrench themselves inside PoK in a large way. As a response force, not so much. The problem is that this entrenching appears to be an inevitability sooner or later. Which is why the time to act is nigh.

I really don't know how realistic that projection is. We still haven't definitively resolved J&K after 31 years and you're talking of cleaning out PoK in 4-5 years?

The reason is, as I said, we are fighting the symptoms and not the cause. The fires that keep J&K burning are not being set from within J&K, but from across the LoC. The shaky ceasefire, the entirety of PoK basically being a buffer zone for the pakistanis, none of these are in our favour.

Will taking PoK completely solve the insurgency problem? No, Pakistan will still seek to cause trouble from within Pakjab, but we will be in a much better position to tackle any such threat. The dynamics of fighting across the porous LoC are simply not the same as fighting across IB. Pak ability to cause trouble will be severely reduced.

Once we take over all of PoK; Afghanistan, with a resurgent Taliban will be our new neighbor and India will have painted an even bigger target on its back for countless Jihadi Groups.

I'd rather fight the Taliban than the PLA.

That said, what makes you think that not taking PoK is an insurance against having to fight Taliban? You think ISI won't bring fighters from Afghanistan across LoC if and when they're done fighting Americans back in their home?

S-400 alone is a massive game changer. Rafales, though few in numbers, will be more advanced than anything Pakistan and likely even China possesses. Apaches, bolstered in numbers by domestically produced attack helicopters will give India's attacking waves the sort of punch we just don't have right now. The exact same goes for all the new artillery (probably one of the most important aspects of warfare when you're trying to rush and capture an objective) we're purchasing for the first time since Bofors. How isn't that a huge leap in capability?

You are expecting tactical equipment to make a strategic difference, which they won't.

S-400 is useless once Pak acquires a robust MIRVed ballistic missile capability from land & sea. Even if it doesn't, it won't matter. American and Russian leaders don't have the balls to launch an attack on an enemy who already has second-strike capability, regardless of how good the defences deployed by each side are. What do you think Indian leaders are going to do?

What do decision makers know about Rafale or Apache capability vis-a-vis Pak counterparts? When push comes to shove, the leaders at the top hold one thought - about the nukes & missiles. That is all.

I guess we'll see about that in the not so distant future; 2022 is literally only 3 years away now.

Lol...and what's going to happen in 2022?

Bro I was just like this once. Around the 2015-2016 time, I held a very real belief that by mid-2018, we were going to see something (wink).

The only truth I have realized over the years is that unless there is a very clear motive, intent and directive coming from the very top (i.e. PMO), whatever military strength we develop is irrelevant as it will never be used to meet our strategic goals unless such is authorized or backed by the top office.
 
Lol...and what's going to happen in 2022?

Bro I was just like this once. Around the 2015-2016 time, I held a very real belief that by mid-2018, we were going to see something (wink).

The only truth I have realized over the years is that unless there is a very clear motive, intent and directive coming from the very top (i.e. PMO), whatever military strength we develop is irrelevant as it will never be used to meet our strategic goals unless such is authorized or backed by the top office.
So true
 
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China is in no position to sustain a ground war against India in the high-altitude regions. They simply don't have enough acclimatized troops or available airfields in TAR which can host a year-round air component poised against India.

They become a threat only if and when they entrench themselves inside PoK in a large way. As a response force, not so much. The problem is that this entrenching appears to be an inevitability sooner or later. Which is why the time to act is nigh.

Underestimate China at your own peril; they're not as much of a military superpower as they like to pretend, and their military history is particularly underwhelming, but they are working hard and at double speed to rectify that. And a lot of the points you raise, are addressed by the speed and vigor with which China is developing all sorts of military infrastructure along the border.

Not to mention, not all warfare occurs on land or in the skies anymore, warfare is multidimensional and includes realms like cyberwarfare too - where China appears to be quite strong.

The fires that keep J&K burning are not being set from within J&K,

The exact same thing would then happen from Afghanistan (Taliban) & Pakistani Punjab even if India takes PoK.

That said, what makes you think that not taking PoK is an insurance against having to fight Taliban? You think ISI won't bring fighters from Afghanistan across LoC if and when they're done fighting Americans back in their home?

Because taking PoK would be a very recent, and blatant act of aggression against a Muslim country, which is the patron of the Taliban, that would serve to strongly unify Muslim forces, including and especially the Taliban, by providing a new enemy, challenge, objective and conflict for recruiting and rallying fighters. And with the US pulling back, Afghan Gvt losing control and Russia & Iran trying to strike a deal with the Taliban, India would basically be the one remaining enemy in the region, with the only geographical buffer of sorts being removed. A lot of conflict is avoided simply by not being neighbors, and whenever Pakistan has tried harboring terrorists to target India, they have also suffered the harmful after-effects. If India becomes neighbors with the Taliban, Pakistani purposes will be served without Pakistan suffering the usual fallout.

I would rather combat the Taliban by changing the demography of J&K to settle that uprising permanently, and capturing favorable positions on the Pakistani side of PoK to handle any Pakistani infiltrators, possible Taliban fighters, and to also use crucial heights to put the squeeze on any Pakistani & Chinese pressure points.

You are expecting tactical equipment to make a strategic difference, which they won't.

S-400 is useless once Pak acquires a robust MIRVed ballistic missile capability from land & sea.

I suppose that depends on how India plans to use the S-400, a question that I've had for a very long time, thsat still hasn't received a satisfactory, definitive answer. But from what I've read about the S-400 as an anti-aircraft system, it has the potential to basically remove the PAF from any conflict equation altogether, handing the IAF instant air superiority. You can't laugh that off as inconsequential.

The point about MIRV's isn't really relevant because BMD isn't what I'm counting on the S-400 for, and anyways you already said we're discussing a short, small war where there's never any question of MIRV's.

What do decision makers know about Rafale or Apache capability vis-a-vis Pak counterparts? When push comes to shove, the leaders at the top hold one thought - about the nukes & missiles. That is all.

Since when do leaders need to know all the technical details of every weapons system? That's what military leaders and service chiefs are for, and they, along with Government officials like the NSA & Def Min can be consulted by the top political leadership on anything they don't know. When Modi asks a service chief about the preparedness of his respective Service, and their ability to attain certain objectives, would that Service Chief's response/advice (which would impact the political leadership's decision making) not be informed by in depth knowledge and cognizance of the newly purchased equipment?

Lol...and what's going to happen in 2022?

Bro I was just like this once. Around the 2015-2016 time, I held a very real belief that by mid-2018, we were going to see something (wink).

The only truth I have realized over the years is that unless there is a very clear motive, intent and directive coming from the very top (i.e. PMO), whatever military strength we develop is irrelevant as it will never be used to meet our strategic goals unless such is authorized or backed by the top office.

Based off of the facts available, 2022 seems to be the year by which most of these key items will be completely, or almost completely delivered. As for your other points, I retain my faith in this Government. People were talking the same way after Pathankot and Uri, especially after Modi's deceptive speech on fighting a joint 1,000 year war against poverty, hunger etc. just a couple days before commandos entered PoK. I am confident that other than the late Vajpayee (who fought back at Kargil, and nearly did so after the Parliament Attack until he was failed by the Army's tragicomically slow mobilization), Modi is the one leader who'll dare to hit back against a nuclear armed Pakistan.

I've read variations of your comment(s) on the Surgical Strikes from other people before, and the common theme seems to be that those Strikes are viewed in isolation and evaluated for how effective they were in singlehandedly dealing with 30+ years of Pakistani terrorism and 70+ years of varied Pakistani meddling in Kashmir & instigation of hostilities at the border; at which point they can be declared a failure or ineffective because obviously they weren't going to solve/end everything.

What seems to consistently be missed is that an entirely new precedent has been set - one where India will retaliate to terror attacks, where nuclear blackmail and bluster will be called for the bluff that it is and disregarded, and where instead of allowing Pakistan's possession of Nukes/TNW's and imaginary red lines for usage to preclude any sort of conflict at all, innovative new strategies will be formulated to either fight below that threshold & punish Pak or to wipe out its nukes altogether before clobbering it. But the old, ineffective, overly defensive & pathetically under-reactive approach finally seems to be out under this Government, and I expect them to get exceedingly tough on Pakistan over the next few years as things shape up more and more favorably.
 
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@Parthu.

Restoring ceasefire needs statesmanship, not brinkmanship: Lt Gen M M Naravane


Two-front war not a good idea, says top general


Read these two Very Recent Statements by
India's Serving Lieutenant Generals

People believe that it is the only the politicians who are opposed to War

I believe that if Today
Govt asks the Army
To start Action , they will Question
WHY , What is the need

@Hellfire. @vstol Jockey

@randomradio @Milspec

What do you think

Our Armed forces fight when their own
Paltan ki Izzat is on the line like Kargil and Uri
Don't read too much into it, two out of Lakhs is statistical noise.
 
Don't read too much into it, two out of Lakhs is statistical noise.

Who knows? Besides, with the kind of blind siding of all matters military by our political classes, why blame the military for this school of thought?
Our foreign ministry like most of our netas are staffed by "ahinsaks", the kind who take blind pride in our freedom struggle & consequent Nehruvian foreign policy gimmickry without being aware of the exigencies that prompted it.
Nehruvian ambivalence is to be blamed too. Besides, pls look into the pedigree of the PM's since IG. All peasant leaders or ppl who presented themselves to be so except MMS & PVNR. What would be their world view?
 
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Underestimate China at your own peril; they're not as much of a military superpower as they like to pretend, and their military history is particularly underwhelming, but they are working hard and at double speed to rectify that. And a lot of the points you raise, are addressed by the speed and vigor with which China is developing all sorts of military infrastructure along the border.

Not to mention, not all warfare occurs on land or in the skies anymore, warfare is multidimensional and includes realms like cyberwarfare too - where China appears to be quite strong.

If you're looking for excuses to not go out there and secure our interests, I'm sure you'll find many.

First of all, what ground is there for China to intervene in PoK in a military capacity? Do they own or administer that territory? No. Would we be attacking any declared Chinese presence by going into PoK? No, whatever presence they might already have is covert & deniable. Do they even lay claim to that territory? No.

There is no way China can sell an intervention in PoK at the international stage. China isn't that stupid. Pakistan has no legal claim to the region and China knows that. Which is the reason they've been pressurizing the Pak government to push for recognition of the people of this region as Pak citizens (that's right, before this, citizens of Gilgit-Baltistan were never recognized as citizens of Pakistan or given any rights) and sooner than later, they will push Pak to the negotiation table with India and they will try to legitimize the LoC as the new permanent IB, to get India to relinquish any claim on G-B, and in turn they will make Pakistan hand over the sliver of land that is called Azad Kashmir to India.

That's the Chinese end-game here.

And I'm afraid if a future leader of India would be stupid enough to agree to these terms and relinquish claim on G-B.

The exact same thing would then happen from Afghanistan (Taliban) & Pakistani Punjab even if India takes PoK.

Not even close. Why? Because as I said, fighting across the IB is not the same as fighting across a porous LoC. And even if Pakistan is fool enough to use its own sovereign territory to launch terrorist infiltrators, let them. That'll only get them into deeper trouble at the international stage, the dynamics of fighting the insurgency won't change for us...but the strategic objectives of cutting off the link between Pak and China will be met. We would have destroyed CPEC and crippled a very important portion of BRI/OBOR.

To me, that is enough reason to take PoK.

As of Afghan Taliban, they are not even a threat worth being afraid of. The reasons why we're unable to escalate the fighting across LoC at will won't stay true when fighting Taliban presence at border. We will be free to bring airpower to bear, free to bring high-calibre artillery to bear, free to conduct cross-border raids at will (Afghan govt and ANA will support us). Taliban or similar force are a threat to reckon when fighting a long, drawn-out Guerrilla war when they can choose the time & place to strike. As of a force for frontal combat (which is what they'll be forced into if they try to infiltrate across border), they are fish in a barrel.

If you are fearful of doing what's necessary for securing our national interest because of a bunch of tribesmen with AKs, congratulations, Pakistan has already won.

Because taking PoK would be a very recent, and blatant act of aggression against a Muslim country, which is the patron of the Taliban, that would serve to strongly unify Muslim forces, including and especially the Taliban, by providing a new enemy, challenge, objective and conflict for recruiting and rallying fighters. And with the US pulling back, Afghan Gvt losing control and Russia & Iran trying to strike a deal with the Taliban, India would basically be the one remaining enemy in the region, with the only geographical buffer of sorts being removed. A lot of conflict is avoided simply by not being neighbors, and whenever Pakistan has tried harboring terrorists to target India, they have also suffered the harmful after-effects. If India becomes neighbors with the Taliban, Pakistani purposes will be served without Pakistan suffering the usual fallout.

Dear, you don't have to work on giving a reason for radical Islamist forces to hate you.

Breaking news: They hate you already.

I would rather combat the Taliban by changing the demography of J&K to settle that uprising permanently, and capturing favorable positions on the Pakistani side of PoK to handle any Pakistani infiltrators, possible Taliban fighters, and to also use crucial heights to put the squeeze on any Pakistani & Chinese pressure points.

And what would be your end-game?

I suppose that depends on how India plans to use the S-400, a question that I've had for a very long time, thsat still hasn't received a satisfactory, definitive answer. But from what I've read about the S-400 as an anti-aircraft system, it has the potential to basically remove the PAF from any conflict equation altogether, handing the IAF instant air superiority. You can't laugh that off as inconsequential.

China has also acquired S-400...how long do you think it will be before they make copies of it and sell it to Pakistan? They already made copies of S-300 and Pakistan is intent on acquiring them.

The point about MIRV's isn't really relevant because BMD isn't what I'm counting on the S-400 for, and anyways you already said we're discussing a short, small war where there's never any question of MIRV's.

It will because our leaders will believe that the if they launch a massed invasion force into PoK, Pakistan will fire nukes on us.

Since when do leaders need to know all the technical details of every weapons system? That's what military leaders and service chiefs are for, and they, along with Government officials like the NSA & Def Min can be consulted by the top political leadership on anything they don't know. When Modi asks a service chief about the preparedness of his respective Service, and their ability to attain certain objectives, would that Service Chief's response/advice (which would impact the political leadership's decision making) not be informed by in depth knowledge and cognizance of the newly purchased equipment?

Leaders don't know technicalities and they don't need to. But the thing is, the decisions they need to make do not shape the tactical battlefield, but the strategic level. The fact that Pak has a second-strike capability will debilitate any decision-maker's ability to make the call for launching hostilities.

Tactical advantages be damned.

They will ask the top brass a simple question: is there a chance that their missiles will get through? And unless we allow the brass to lie to their face, they will have to say yes. Kaam hogaya. They will think taking PoK is not worth the risk, and roll back.

That's exactly what's happening now and exactly what will happen in mid-2020s or 2030s.

Based off of the facts available, 2022 seems to be the year by which most of these key items will be completely, or almost completely delivered. As for your other points, I retain my faith in this Government. People were talking the same way after Pathankot and Uri, especially after Modi's deceptive speech on fighting a joint 1,000 year war against poverty, hunger etc. just a couple days before commandos entered PoK. I am confident that other than the late Vajpayee (who fought back at Kargil, and nearly did so after the Parliament Attack until he was failed by the Army's tragicomically slow mobilization), Modi is the one leader who'll dare to hit back against a nuclear armed Pakistan.

I've read variations of your comment(s) on the Surgical Strikes from other people before, and the common theme seems to be that those Strikes are viewed in isolation and evaluated for how effective they were in singlehandedly dealing with 30+ years of Pakistani terrorism and 70+ years of varied Pakistani meddling in Kashmir & instigation of hostilities at the border; at which point they can be declared a failure or ineffective because obviously they weren't going to solve/end everything.

What seems to consistently be missed is that an entirely new precedent has been set - one where India will retaliate to terror attacks, where nuclear blackmail and bluster will be called for the bluff that it is and disregarded, and where instead of allowing Pakistan's possession of Nukes/TNW's and imaginary red lines for usage to preclude any sort of conflict at all, innovative new strategies will be formulated to either fight below that threshold & punish Pak or to wipe out its nukes altogether before clobbering it. But the old, ineffective, overly defensive & pathetically under-reactive approach finally seems to be out under this Government, and I expect them to get exceedingly tough on Pakistan over the next few years as things shape up more and more favorably.

1) Surgical strikes changed the civilian thinking, not the strategic level's thought-process.
2) Nukes/TNWs were always a bluff. Surgical strikes was not the first time Special Forces were used in a cross-LoC capacity. In fact they do that routinely to avenge killings/beheadings.
3) None of the ground realities have changed. The launch pads are back up, the cross-LoC infiltration hasn't stopped, nor has Pak's attitude toward us.

So again I ask, other than being effective propaganda to feed to the public (and I'm not saying that's unimportant, in fact that is crucial), what was the strategic consequence of the Surgical strikes? Don't get me wrong, I commend Modi for doing what he did (and ensuring what was done was made known to the public), but I'm saying that things like these are too little & too late.
 
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There is simply no motivation - strategic or religious, good enough to cause deaths in thousands. Neither in army as an institution nor in common army men.

As Musharraf once said that
An Army is the part of society it is a reflection of society

So if Indian Society does not care for POK
Why will Army be interested in it

As a nation , we are only interested in
Protecting the Existing territory

Nothing more than that
 
If you're looking for excuses to not go out there and secure our interests, I'm sure you'll find many.

First of all, what ground is there for China to intervene in PoK in a military capacity? Do they own or administer that territory? No. Would we be attacking any declared Chinese presence by going into PoK? No, whatever presence they might already have is covert & deniable. Do they even lay claim to that territory? No.

There is no way China can sell an intervention in PoK at the international stage. China isn't that stupid. Pakistan has no legal claim to the region and China knows that. Which is the reason they've been pressurizing the Pak government to push for recognition of the people of this region as Pak citizens (that's right, before this, citizens of Gilgit-Baltistan were never recognized as citizens of Pakistan or given any rights) and sooner than later, they will push Pak to the negotiation table with India and they will try to legitimize the LoC as the new permanent IB, to get India to relinquish any claim on G-B, and in turn they will make Pakistan hand over the sliver of land that is called Azad Kashmir to India.

That's the Chinese end-game here.

And I'm afraid if a future leader of India would be stupid enough to agree to these terms and relinquish claim on G-B.



Not even close. Why? Because as I said, fighting across the IB is not the same as fighting across a porous LoC. And even if Pakistan is fool enough to use its own sovereign territory to launch terrorist infiltrators, let them. That'll only get them into deeper trouble at the international stage, the dynamics of fighting the insurgency won't change for us...but the strategic objectives of cutting off the link between Pak and China will be met. We would have destroyed CPEC and crippled a very important portion of BRI/OBOR.

To me, that is enough reason to take PoK.

As of Afghan Taliban, they are not even a threat worth being afraid of. The reasons why we're unable to escalate the fighting across LoC at will won't stay true when fighting Taliban presence at border. We will be free to bring airpower to bear, free to bring high-calibre artillery to bear, free to conduct cross-border raids at will (Afghan govt and ANA will support us). Taliban or similar force are a threat to reckon when fighting a long, drawn-out Guerrilla war when they can choose the time & place to strike. As of a force for frontal combat (which is what they'll be forced into if they try to infiltrate across border), they are fish in a barrel.

If you are fearful of doing what's necessary for securing our national interest because of a bunch of tribesmen with AKs, congratulations, Pakistan has already won.



Dear, you don't have to work on giving a reason for radical Islamist forces to hate you.

Breaking news: They hate you already.



And what would be your end-game?



China has also acquired S-400...how long do you think it will be before they make copies of it and sell it to Pakistan? They already made copies of S-300 and Pakistan is intent on acquiring them.



It will because our leaders will believe that the if they launch a massed invasion force into PoK, Pakistan will fire nukes on us.



Leaders don't know technicalities and they don't need to. But the thing is, the decisions they need to make do not shape the tactical battlefield, but the strategic level. The fact that Pak has a second-strike capability will debilitate any decision-maker's ability to make the call for launching hostilities.

Tactical advantages be damned.

They will ask the top brass a simple question: is there a chance that their missiles will get through? And unless we allow the brass to lie to their face, they will have to say yes. Kaam hogaya. They will think taking PoK is not worth the risk, and roll back.

That's exactly what's happening now and exactly what will happen in mid-2020s or 2030s.



1) Surgical strikes changed the civilian thinking, not the strategic level's thought-process.
2) Nukes/TNWs were always a bluff. Surgical strikes was not the first time Special Forces were used in a cross-LoC capacity. In fact they do that routinely to avenge killings/beheadings.
3) None of the ground realities have changed. The launch pads are back up, the cross-LoC infiltration hasn't stopped, nor has Pak's attitude toward us.

So again I ask, other than being effective propaganda to feed to the public (and I'm not saying that's unimportant, in fact that is crucial), what was the strategic consequence of the Surgical strikes? Don't get me wrong, I commend Modi for doing what he did (and ensuring what was done was made known to the public), but I'm saying that things like these are too little & too late.

Surgical strikes showed that there is A Space for limited war , which Pakistan
Always denied

But the issue is that why we have Not escalated on the LOC

Even when we say that the Army has a Free
Hand , the Army is Not Hitting Deep into LOC
Not using 155 mm , MBRLs

Who is not interested in Escalation
Army or the Govt

In the last two years , we have imposed
Some Costs on Pakistan

They are spending more on defence thus going further down in Bankruptcy

But we can cause more Pain
That has not been done