PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[Vishwamitra]

In simple term We got the biggest *censored* off by russia.

After bankrolling us they denied to transfer critical technology to us as per agreement, thats why we can called the deal.

Now they are going to give this su-57 plane made by Indian money to our enemies like China and Turkey with Tot to give evn bigger *censored* you to us.

Instead of cancellation outright we should have bought some of these planes and made our own fighter with American, French and Israeli tech.

This is the 4th FU after Ins Viki and mig-29, super sukhoi deals.maybe we need to take some drastic changes now in order to keep our independent policy alive.

 

[Ashwin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1125786222050385921

 

[_Anonymous_]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1125786222050385921

So, @randomradio was right as usual. The Su-57 matures in the mid 20's.That's when we can approach the Russians with our plan for an FGFA with suitable India specific modifications on the Su 57. Meanwhile, as per PKS, the Super Sukhoi upgrades for our MKI is due to be inked this year. I also remember PKS mentioning in some place that we'd be in a position to opt for the engine powering the Su 57 , once it's certified. Which now seems to be certain in 2022-23 timelines.Wonder how will the 2 reconcile!!

 

[randomradio]

So, @randomradio was right as usual. The Su-57 matures in the mid 20's.That's when we can approach the Russians with our plan for an FGFA with suitable India specific modifications on the Su 57. Meanwhile, as per PKS, the Super Sukhoi upgrades for our MKI is due to be inked this year. I also remember PKS mentioning in some place that we'd be in a position to opt for the engine powering the Su 57 , once it's certified. Which now seems to be certain in 2022-23 timelines.Wonder how will the 2 reconcile!!

The engine that's meant to go on the MKI MLU will likely be Su-35's engine, not PAK FA's. Type 30 is still too far away from being used on the MKI for the Phase I upgrade.

 

[vstol Jockey]

The engine that's meant to go on the MKI MLU will likely be Su-35's engine, not PAK FA's. Type 30 is still too far away from being used on the MKI for the Phase I upgrade.

We are looking at AL-41F1 which is used in Pak-Fa as on date with 93.3KN dry thrust and 147KN wet thrust. Tis engine is 150kgs lighter than SU-35 engine which is AL-41f1S

 

[randomradio]

We are looking at AL-41F1 which is used in Pak-Fa as on date with 93.3KN dry thrust and 147KN wet thrust. Tis engine is 150kgs lighter than SU-35 engine which is AL-41f1S

Yeah, the 117 is most definitely better than Su-35's 117S, but at the same time we do not know how mature the 117 really is, whereas the 117S is a very mature engine with hundreds produced already.

The bigger problem is the Russians are also not going for a significant order for the production of the 117. So in the end, we will turn out to be the only user of the engine and we will get stuck with fixing all the problems, like the case with the AL-31FP. Once all the problems are fixed, the Russians and other countries will start placing orders for this engine. We shouldn't become bakras here for the sake of a bit more extra dry thrust.

For Phase I, we should pick 117S. For Phase II and beyond Type 30 would be the best option.

 

[_Anonymous_]

For Phase I, we should pick 117S. For Phase II and beyond Type 30 would be the best option

Are you suggesting there are two phases to the Super Sukhoi upgrades? Can you elaborate?

 

[vstol Jockey]

Yeah, the 117 is most definitely better than Su-35's 117S, but at the same time we do not know how mature the 117 really is, whereas the 117S is a very mature engine with hundreds produced already.

The bigger problem is the Russians are also not going for a significant order for the production of the 117. So in the end, we will turn out to be the only user of the engine and we will get stuck with fixing all the problems, like the case with the AL-31FP. Once all the problems are fixed, the Russians and other countries will start placing orders for this engine. We shouldn't become bakras here for the sake of a bit more extra dry thrust.

For Phase I, we should pick 117S. For Phase II and beyond Type 30 would be the best option.

But The Pak-Fa engine for initial production lot is over 90% su-35 engine with better fuel efficiency and increased service life.

 

[vstol Jockey]

Are you suggesting there are two phases to the Super Sukhoi upgrades? Can you elaborate?

I suggest thyat IAF goes for the new build 18/40 su-30s with 117s engine and later upgrade these new jets with I-30 engine including the later build ones. Not the whole fleet. I-30 engine has some of the best tech of the world which even the western world does not have. Its Fan gives out an impressive 6.7 compression ratio and the HP compressor has only five stages with a TET of 1850*C. This puts this engine on top of the class of such engines. Even the latest Japanese XF9-1 engine has 1800*C TET. The French and Americans have experimented with above 2000*C TET cores but they are still at exprerimental stages.

 

[randomradio]

Are you suggesting there are two phases to the Super Sukhoi upgrades? Can you elaborate?

The number of phases is unknown. It's a very large fleet, so the MLU program will be spread over many years. For example, jets being absorbed today won't get the same upgrade as the current MLU all the way in 2040.

The current phase is for 50-80 jets, probably 80. The next phase will have more advanced tech, and so on.

 

[randomradio]

But The Pak-Fa engine for initial production lot is over 90% su-35 engine with better fuel efficiency and increased service life.

I just hope it won't create problems for us later on. As of today, the Flanker airframe is ready to take 117S without much work, so there will be no delays if we go for it. But 117 will take a long time to certify for the Flankers.

I don't think the IAF will wait for the Russians to do all that. So my assumption is we will be going for 117S for Phase I.

 

[vstol Jockey]

I just hope it won't create problems for us later on. As of today, the Flanker airframe is ready to take 117S without much work, so there will be no delays if we go for it. But 117 will take a long time to certify for the Flankers.

I don't think the IAF will wait for the Russians to do all that. So my assumption is we will be going for 117S for Phase I.

117 has entered serial production for initial lot of 30 odd SU-57s. This engine was certified in 2007 and has matured fully.

 

[randomradio]

I suggest thyat IAF goes for the new build 18/40 su-30s with 117s engine and later upgrade these new jets with I-30 engine including the later build ones. Not the whole fleet. I-30 engine has some of the best tech of the world which even the western world does not have. Its Fan gives out an impressive 6.7 compression ratio and the HP compressor has only five stages with a TET of 1850*C. This puts this engine on top of the class of such engines. Even the latest Japanese XF9-1 engine has 1800*C TET.

I'm hoping IAF upgrades MKIs from Phase II onwards with this engine.

The French and Americans have experimented with above 2000*C TET cores but they are still at exprerimental stages.

Anyway, the I-30 is not the highest. The Americans have already achieved 1980 deg C on the F-135.

JSF Hit by Serious Design Problems: Prototype Grounded Since May After Emergency Landing
The F135 engine runs the highest turbine inlet temperature of any jet engine in the history of aviation -- a whopping 3600 degrees where most fighter engines operate in the 2600 to 2800 degrees range.

F-119's is only 3000 deg F or 1650 deg C.

But the advantage for I-30 is that it's a VCE, so it gives superior SFC compared to the temperature it can handle.

Now both the French and Americans are targeting 2200 deg C and higher.

 

[vstol Jockey]

I'm hoping IAF upgrades MKIs from Phase II onwards with this engine.

I will suggest all aircraft built after 2014 only like the Darin-3 upgrade for Jags.

Anyway, the I-30 is not the highest. The Americans have already achieved 1980 deg C on the F-135.

I did say about it but the engine has serious problems and yet to be fully accepted as problem free. I stated experimental stage. I am sure of what I posted. The engine has serious and severe limitations when operated at those tempratures. Plus this limit is applicable only for F-35B engine.

 

[randomradio]

!!& has entered serial production for initial lot of 30 odd SU-57s. This engine was certified in 2007 and has matured fully.

I won't pin my hopes on the Russians claiming something is mature. Our AL-31FPs had trouble for nearly a decade after induction and took many years to fix.

It's a good thing we backed out of the FGFA program. Whatever we do with the Russians should be entirely based on proven systems, especially stuff they themselves have inducted first.

 

[Ashwin]

Putin said that until 2028, 76 Su-57 aircraft will be purchased.

SOCHI, May 15 / Tass /. Until 2028, 76 Su-57 aircraft will be purchased, a comprehensive contract will be concluded soon. This was announced by Russian President Vladimir Putin, opening the next meeting on defense issues.

“The weapons program until 2028 planned to buy 16 such aircraft,” Putin recalled. According to him, after analyzing the situation, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu reported to him that manufacturers reduced the cost of both aircraft and weapons by 20%, as a result of which it became possible to purchase more combat vehicles of this class. “We agreed that we would purchase over the same period of time without increasing the cost of 76 such aircraft,” Putin said.

The head of state stressed that the Russian defense industry had not done anything like this in the last forty years on such a scale and on a new platform. He expressed the hope that the adjusted plans will be executed. "In the near future, a contract will be signed for an integrated supply of 76 such fighters, equipped with modern means of destruction and provided with the necessary ground infrastructure," said the head of state.

The President recalled that the industry is focusing on the development of modern aircraft, which determine the combat potential of the Russian military aviation for the next decade. "At the final stage of testing are multi-role fighters Su-35S and Su-57," the Russian leader said, noting that their combat characteristics are the best in the world. He said that by 2028 it was necessary to completely re-equip the three aviation regiments of the VCS with promising fifth-generation aviation complexes.

Putin also noted that in February 2018, the updated Tu-160M bomber made its first flight. Putin also called for increasing the combat capabilities of existing military aircraft and helicopters with the help of existing capabilities and effective modernization. According to him, the power of the MiG-31 interceptor fighter significantly increased, on the basis of which the advanced Dagger aviation complex, equipped with a hypersonic ballistic missile, was created.

According to the president, it is also necessary to consistently update the strategic missile carriers Tu-95, Tu-160, and long-range Tu-22M bombers. "All of them should be able to carry the latest cruise missiles, as well as other promising means of destruction," Putin concluded.

 

[randomradio]

Good. The program won't have a future without the Russians themselves supporting it.

I hope a new variant with the new generation radar is made for the post 2030 world.

 

[GuardianRED]

@Ashwin any thing new here ?

 

[BMD]

 

[BMD]

Russia offers India to resume development of 5th-generation fighter jet
The fighter is designed to destroy all types of air targets and hit ground and naval targets, overcoming enemy air defense systems

Su-57 fighter jet

© AP Photo/Pavel Golovkin
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Russia’s Su-57 fifth-generation fighter jets to get advanced anti-ship missile
MOSCOW, July 9. /TASS/. Russia offers India to resume its participation in a joint program on developing the fifth-generation fighter jet, Deputy Director of Russia’s Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation Vladimir Drozhzhov told reporters on Tuesday.

"I believe that we should resume this project, Russia is open to that," Drozhzhov said.

According to the official, the Su-57 fighter jet has unique capabilities and has all documentation for a display. "We are ready and are proposing this program to our Indian partners," he noted.

The Su-57 is a fifth-generation multirole fighter designed to destroy all types of air targets at long and short distances and hit ground and naval targets, overcoming enemy air defense systems.

The Su-57 took to the skies for the first time on January 29, 2010. Compared to its predecessors, the Su-57 combines the functions of an attack plane and a fighter jet while composite materials, innovation technologies and the fighter’s aerodynamic configuration ensure low level of radar and infrared signature.