When enemy in west is steadily upgrading it's inventory,we are sleeping like a
on mmrca2.And no,with new developments between Ukraine & Russia,there won't be any special waiver for India. We will not go for su57,and we should not.
Pakistan AirForce : Updates & Discussions
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
on mmrca2.And no,with new developments between Ukraine & Russia,there won't be any special waiver for India. We will not go for su57,and we should not.
Implying the Turks can construct a fifth gen aircraft. They haven't even started the hurjet and you are expecting them to buy the tfx which they won't be able to afford. The Turks still haven't been able to produce the Altay which was a much easier project. The Turks made drones but the chances of them even producing a workable fifth gen before 2035 is pure delusion. The Pakistanis are going to buy the j-31 and then keep their mouth shut. They are not in the position to buy turkish helicopters forget turkish planes.
We will buy the su-57 irrespective of amca being successful or not. The su-57 is a heavy aircraft and it will replace the mki's. Once the item 30 enters mass production we will procure the su-57's. Both the Ngad/tempest also have a huge chance to be procured as a Rafale replacementWhen enemy in west is steadily upgrading it's inventory,we are sleeping like a
And no,with new developments between Ukraine & Russia,there won't be any special waiver for India. We will not go for su57,and we should not.
This guy Temel Kotil is renowned in Turkey as an institution builder on par with our Dr Bhabha , Dr Sarabhai , Satish Dhawan , etc.
The impressive strides TAI has made in the recent past have been under his leadership. You can bet NUST & Paxtani aerospace ecosystem will benefit a great deal from this association.
Interesting tidbit Temel Kotil was CEO of Turkish Airlines between 2005-16 when before his leadership , the organization which was in some trouble , soon rose to become a hugely profitable enterprise & was ranked among one of the best airlines in Europe. No mean achievement this .
Incidentally Ilker Ayci who's just been appointed by Tata Sons as the MD of Air India was part of Kotil's team & succeeded him as Chairman of Turkish Airlines.
Both of these individuals have deep ties with Erdogan , his AK Parti & have served as his advisors & part of his administration at different points of time in their & his career across the years.
The impressive strides TAI has made in the recent past have been under his leadership. You can bet NUST & Paxtani aerospace ecosystem will benefit a great deal from this association.
Interesting tidbit Temel Kotil was CEO of Turkish Airlines between 2005-16 when before his leadership , the organization which was in some trouble , soon rose to become a hugely profitable enterprise & was ranked among one of the best airlines in Europe. No mean achievement this .
Incidentally Ilker Ayci who's just been appointed by Tata Sons as the MD of Air India was part of Kotil's team & succeeded him as Chairman of Turkish Airlines.
Both of these individuals have deep ties with Erdogan , his AK Parti & have served as his advisors & part of his administration at different points of time in their & his career across the years.
Terracotta Warriors are not to deter the enemy, but to be buried with the emperor
Interview of Temel Kotil & other executives of TAI along with NUST Pro Rector by Pakistan media.
Paxtan seems to have finally discovered their Israel. Just 1 problem - Money.
Secondly Paxtan is about to discover how good their native talent is as compared to the world. I suspect , so will the Turks about NUST & Paxtan.
For those who don't know NUST is considered to be Paxtan's equivalent of our IIT's.
Last edited:
There is no ecosystem in porkistan it's a plain joke to absorb something you need to have R&D with continuous flow of money and porkis lack both.
The JV hasn't been formalised as yet. Discussions are on. Right now, only the NUST part is. As things of this nature go, eventually it'd boil down to finance & work share. Hence :
Paxtan seems to have finally discovered their Israel. Just 1 problem - Money.
Secondly Paxtan is about to discover how good their native talent is as compared to the world. I suspect , so will the Turks about NUST & Paxtan.
For those who don't know NUST is considered to be Paxtan's equivalent of our IIT's.
When enemy in west is steadily upgrading it's inventory,we are sleeping like a
The western enemy is chasing after us. We will leave them far behind as usual. The J-10C is basically them catching up to the MKI. Now they need another 10-15 years to catch up to the Rafale, never mind the AMCA.
Anyway, we are doing fine. This how air forces work: Once a jet is inducted, it takes a long time to make it combat capable. If the TF-X receives IOC in 2032, it still needs to get FOC and then another 3 or 4 years of experience before the fleet becomes combat capable, so about 2038 at the minimum. It took 7 years after induction for the MKI. LCA's first international exercise is after 6 years from induction. And so on.
Otoh, the Rafale is already combat capable, all we have to do is induct it, and within two years it will become combat capable in the IAF. Two years because that's how long it will take us to get enough jets and train the pilots. Rafale can already supercruise, and assuming SPECTRA can reduce the weaponised Rafale's RCS to the same level as the TF-X's minimum RCS, which is what SPECTRA supposedly can do, then we will have our own TF-X class capability about 10 years before the PAF.
The PAF has been significantly outclassed since the early 90s, so don't bother too much about it. Our main competitor is China. All we have to do is counter China and Pak gets countered automatically.
If CAATSA is applied on India, then we will choose Russia over the US for obvious reasons.
For example, the Reaper deal with the US has been put on hold (practically scrapped) because the domestic industry has caught up with the technology. We will be upgrading Israeli drones with weapons and Rustom-2 Mk1 will give us a weaponless Reaper equivalent capability, with the Mk2 giving us full Reaper capability.
With the exception of EMALS, which even the Russians are working on, there's nothing left for the US to offer to India. CAATSA will only have the opposite effect.
Turkey has the necessary Western help for the project, plus their own electronics is good enough. And Pakistan will give them some funds and a market to make the project viable. This is like the relationship between Korea and Indonesia.
Yeah, Pakistan does not have the money today, but with the JF-17 eventually ending by 2030, money will be freed up for the TF-X.
I am not sure which engine they are going to use ...and 2nd thing Turkey is not like US or China to give 50% to 100% discount.
Turkey was never their Israel. It was South Africa and always has been. Fortunately South Africa has stagnated since the fall of apartheid so you don't have the high tech weapons which were a speciality of the south african arms industry.
The Turks will be their equivalent of Israel maybe but they don't have much niche tech to share apart from drones. There micromunitions are good but will be an irritant at best against us. Though this also means we need to accelerate our own programs. And the Chinese influence will increase as the Turks get distanced from the west meaning even more funding for the Turks.
Indonesia is a 1 trillion $ economy South Korea is a 1.5 $ economy.
Pakistan has a 300 billion $ economy with barely any foreign exchange and Turkey is a 500 billion $ economy which is slowly inflating. Half of turkish weapons are propaganda models which never enter production. The Altay is still being tested for god knows how many years when it's induction should have begun and inducted. The Turks continue to use the m-60t sabras and leopards 2a4.
They still haven't made the prototype of the hurjet forget flying it. Their aesa radar is just for show and still hasnt been tested on the f-16's they plan on using.
I have huge doubts on Turks even getting the tf-x online before 2030's. And the plane will be costlier than the f-15 since it will be using the ge f110 that they produce. We already know the cost of a standard f-15's. Now imagine the cost of stealthified f-15 and are we seriously considering the Turks will be able to afford it.
The other engine option is the ej-200 upgrade and produced by the Turks. Atleast that sehat the deal with RR will be. And we all know how costly the eurofighter typhoon is. How will they manage??
The j-31 is the only logical option considering it used the same engine as the jf-17. And will be atleast LO so easily maintanable by the Pakistanis.
The Turks have just built the PN 4 MILGEM class corvettes . Apart from that there's the deal for hptrs & the ongoing upgradation of Agosta class of submarines. This is apart from the series of drones that Turkey has sold / in the process of selling Paxtan .
And you're suggesting RSA is / was their Israel ? When did RSA ever supply more than a few stand off munitions , artillery pieces , some electronic equipment & armoured carriers ?
But if the Turks are approaching the Pakistanis in spite of their current financial status being universally known , I suspect the Turks are more desperate than I thought !
Very interesting sequence of events. I think they ought to be watched more closely.
That's what Israel used to do for us. Their entire line of munitions are just license produced south african munitions. The ones they used on 27 th feb that were in pristine condition when they were dropped were denel raptors. Since we banned the South Africans they started selling it to the Pakistanis.
Yeah the relation is kinda like Israel although with slightly different objectives. The Israelis just sell weapons for the sake of it while the Turks are planning to increase their influence in Pakiland. Wouldn't be surprised if turkish mullahs start teaching in pakistani madrassas. The atak deal is delayed until the Turks figure out how to make an engine. Until then that deal is as real as this tfx deal.
It will be interesting because there's a strong possibility thatthe Turks are made pariahs in Nato and EU. And they are hoping to use pakistan for their nuclear program later on.
Countries that are more concerned about security will be less worried about funding. This includes Pakistan. They will eat grass instead.
While the TF-X will no doubt be expensive, it is well within the reach of Pakistan, especially when they are not gonna spend on anything else around the time it becomes ready. Assuming the jet costs $120M and the PAF buys 8 jets every year for 10 years, it's $960M a year. They will just fit the numbers to their budget.
J-31 can be their backup option, although I think Chinese pressure will play a greater part if they end up with it rather than it being a technical choice. I don't think money is bound to play a part when it comes to such crucial tech. The TF-X's Western engine and weapons options will be far more important to the PAF.
Plus someone or the other will fund them. It could be the US, China or the GCC, even Qatar. When we end up becoming less dependent on oil between 2030 and 2035, and we start becoming more economically independent in every field, we are gonna start making more enemies. If the Pakistanis survive this decade, which they likely will, I really don't believe money will be a problem for them the next decade. Turkey is bound to get foreign funding too, from China and Qatar. Both these countries have sugar daddies. You can bet Qatar will buy as many as 50 at an inflated price.
Indonesia and South Korea don't have sugar daddies.
Who told you that China would give money to Turkey? Not to mention aviation technology?
China now wants Turkey to collapse
80% of Chinese hate Turkey
What technology does Turkey have?
Turkey and the US, Europe are getting worse and less likely to gain access to technology
Moreover, Turkey has no experience in developing a trainer aircraft. Can they develop a fifth-generation aircraft?
Not to mention their messed up economy
There is also a J31 target engine is WS19
I am curious, why do you believe that China and Turkey have good diplomatic relations?
Do you think fifth-generation fighter jets are toys?
The aerodynamic shape of the fifth-generation fighter jet alone cannot be grasped by Turkey.
The so-called TF-X is just Erdogan's fanatical religious fantasy
I admire your courage