Maybe . Maybe not . I was discussing the prospect of purchase of Rafales by Vietnam. Curiously neither buyer nor seller nation have even hinted at it .
Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions
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So is another US state : GB.
Since a very famous humiliating training in scotland, they refused to train their EF2000 against Rafale.
General Giap said: "I prefer French gastronomy for ten years to Chinese food for a thousand years".
Next contract for Dassault can only be the Indian one since : "The production line will be busy until 2031," said Hervé Grandjean
www.latribune.fr
With the new contract in Indonesia, the Rafale production line will be busy until 2031. (Credits: Dassault Aviation)
The list of international customers for the Rafale, which some people say is unsaleable, continues to grow: Egypt (55 aircraft), Qatar (36), India (36), Greece (18), Croatia (12), United Arab Emirates (80) and now Indonesia (42). That's 279 Rafales, including 24 used ones (12 to Greece and 12 to Croatia) sold since 2015. Since her arrival at the Hôtel de Brienne, Florence Parly has accompanied the sale of 195 Rafales. With the six additional aircraft about to be acquired by Greece, she will pass the symbolic mark of 200 Rafales sold during her time at the Ministry of the Army. She leaves her successor at the Ministry of the Army with the satisfaction of presenting an excellent record of arms exports for 2022 and 2023 in 2023, or even 2024.
"42 Rafales! Indonesia chooses French industrial excellence! The know-how of the more than 400 French companies and thousands of workers who design the Rafale is recognized. In the Indo-Pacific, this new step strengthens our partnerships," French President Emmanuel Macron tweeted on Thursday.
A close relationship between Paris and Jakarta
To convince Indonesia to acquire the Rafale and the Scorpene, the teams of the Ministry of the Armed Forces have set up between Florence Parly and Prabowo Subianto, the Indonesian Minister of Defense, "a very structured process to arrive at the announcements" of Thursday, explained Hervé Grandjean. The negotiations really began in August 2020. That is 18 months to reach these two orders. In the meantime, the two ministers had signed a letter of intent on June 28, 2021 on cooperation in strategic equipment. In this framework, the ministers confirmed their desire to deepen industrial cooperation and maritime security. "There has been an extremely high quality of relations" between the two ministers, who have had "meetings and exchanges extremely regular", said the spokesman for the ministry.
"Our bilateral relationship is framed by a strategic partnership agreement signed in 2011 and we have in particular a Franco-Indonesian defense dialogue every year," he said.
The two ministries had also set up joint working groups to work on key points of the contract: number of aircraft, delivery schedule, budgetary support... In France, there has also been a lot of interministerial work, with the French defense procurement agency (DGA) at the heart of the reactor. Bercy was also involved in facilitating the financing of the contract. France is logically involved in the budgetary aspects of the contract, the spokesman said. In this context, the state-owned bank Bpifrance is notably "at the helm" in the discussions. "It is underway and is very well advanced," he explained.
A contract worth $8.1 billion
Dassault Aviation has signed a contract for the sale of 42 Rafale F3Rs (30 single-seaters and 12 two-seaters) for a total of $8.1 billion including armaments, according to Armed Forces Ministry spokesman Herve Grandjean. "This is a binding signature," he said. A first batch of six Rafales will come into force after the Indonesian administrative process is completed in the next few months, while the second batch of 36 aircraft will come into force either at the end of the year or early next year, the spokesman said. Implementation of the contract, which corresponds to the payment of the first instalment, depends in particular on the budgetary calendar set up by the Indonesian government. The first Rafale deliveries will take place three years after the contract comes into effect. That is, by 2025.
This new contract "will have no impact on orders and deliveries planned for the French air force and space forces," said Hervé Grandjean.
From an industrial standpoint, this contract gives manufacturers, both Dassault Aviation and the more than 400 subcontractors who work on the Rafale, a little more visibility. "The production line will be busy until 2031," said Hervé Grandjean. The days are long gone when Dassault Aviation had to defend the Rafale in the 2000s, which was mocked and criticized for its price, its outdated technology and its "hypertechnology".
Michel Cabirol
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
And If @picdel is right it should be sign this year.
Rafale en Indonésie : un nouveau succès pour Dassault et Florence Parly
Dassault Aviation engrange une commande de 42 Rafale pour un montant de 8,1 milliards de dollars en Indonésie. La ministre des Armées Florence Parly a appuyé la vente de près de 200 Rafale depuis son arrivée au ministère des Armées.
www.latribune.fr
The list of international customers for the Rafale, which some people say is unsaleable, continues to grow: Egypt (55 aircraft), Qatar (36), India (36), Greece (18), Croatia (12), United Arab Emirates (80) and now Indonesia (42). That's 279 Rafales, including 24 used ones (12 to Greece and 12 to Croatia) sold since 2015. Since her arrival at the Hôtel de Brienne, Florence Parly has accompanied the sale of 195 Rafales. With the six additional aircraft about to be acquired by Greece, she will pass the symbolic mark of 200 Rafales sold during her time at the Ministry of the Army. She leaves her successor at the Ministry of the Army with the satisfaction of presenting an excellent record of arms exports for 2022 and 2023 in 2023, or even 2024.
"42 Rafales! Indonesia chooses French industrial excellence! The know-how of the more than 400 French companies and thousands of workers who design the Rafale is recognized. In the Indo-Pacific, this new step strengthens our partnerships," French President Emmanuel Macron tweeted on Thursday.
A close relationship between Paris and Jakarta
To convince Indonesia to acquire the Rafale and the Scorpene, the teams of the Ministry of the Armed Forces have set up between Florence Parly and Prabowo Subianto, the Indonesian Minister of Defense, "a very structured process to arrive at the announcements" of Thursday, explained Hervé Grandjean. The negotiations really began in August 2020. That is 18 months to reach these two orders. In the meantime, the two ministers had signed a letter of intent on June 28, 2021 on cooperation in strategic equipment. In this framework, the ministers confirmed their desire to deepen industrial cooperation and maritime security. "There has been an extremely high quality of relations" between the two ministers, who have had "meetings and exchanges extremely regular", said the spokesman for the ministry.
"Our bilateral relationship is framed by a strategic partnership agreement signed in 2011 and we have in particular a Franco-Indonesian defense dialogue every year," he said.
The two ministries had also set up joint working groups to work on key points of the contract: number of aircraft, delivery schedule, budgetary support... In France, there has also been a lot of interministerial work, with the French defense procurement agency (DGA) at the heart of the reactor. Bercy was also involved in facilitating the financing of the contract. France is logically involved in the budgetary aspects of the contract, the spokesman said. In this context, the state-owned bank Bpifrance is notably "at the helm" in the discussions. "It is underway and is very well advanced," he explained.
A contract worth $8.1 billion
Dassault Aviation has signed a contract for the sale of 42 Rafale F3Rs (30 single-seaters and 12 two-seaters) for a total of $8.1 billion including armaments, according to Armed Forces Ministry spokesman Herve Grandjean. "This is a binding signature," he said. A first batch of six Rafales will come into force after the Indonesian administrative process is completed in the next few months, while the second batch of 36 aircraft will come into force either at the end of the year or early next year, the spokesman said. Implementation of the contract, which corresponds to the payment of the first instalment, depends in particular on the budgetary calendar set up by the Indonesian government. The first Rafale deliveries will take place three years after the contract comes into effect. That is, by 2025.
This new contract "will have no impact on orders and deliveries planned for the French air force and space forces," said Hervé Grandjean.
From an industrial standpoint, this contract gives manufacturers, both Dassault Aviation and the more than 400 subcontractors who work on the Rafale, a little more visibility. "The production line will be busy until 2031," said Hervé Grandjean. The days are long gone when Dassault Aviation had to defend the Rafale in the 2000s, which was mocked and criticized for its price, its outdated technology and its "hypertechnology".
Michel Cabirol
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
And If @picdel is right it should be sign this year.
Well , Gen Giap is no longer around & was sidelined a lot earlier before his demise at the age of 102 , a decade earlier. But what he echoed was a national sentiment the Kinh people expressed.
Vietnam is pretty solidly linked with Russia & it's predecessor state the USSR. While India began decoupling it's defence procurements more than 3 decades ago with procurement of Jaguars & Mirages , the Vietnamese have only begun to take baby steps in that direction.
Conventional wisdom dictates that you test your newly forged relationship with small ticket low profile tactical weapons / platforms before moving up the ladder.
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I wonder how we would have done if we had won Switzerland and Finland.
Good question.
ANd I think that Dassault made Finland compettion knowing that It would be a loss. But considering the target price Dassault also knew that it was to hard for the F-35 without a very agressive price. Perhaps the US have heard of the very agressive french offer to Switzerland and have taken the decision to lower by a big margin the F-35 price.
But as every time, when you lower by such a margin without secrecy all the other clients ask for the same. And Dassault have avoided to do the same.
That give Dassault a very comfortable position in country like UAE.
If you follow me Dassault saty in Finland for this only reason.
Switzerland I don't know
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Every country has its own defense strategies ...Indian defense strategies are different from Indonesian defense strategies. since we are a bigger country we invested highly in layered air defense systems like S400, Barak 8, Akash, Spyder QRSAM... With the money which we spent on S400, we could have bought easily another set of 36 Rafale fighter planes... Till we complete the S400 deal I don't think there will be any measure purchase from IAF. The upcoming measure deal is coming from IN that's carrier-based Aircraft... we will see who is the winner F18 or Rafale .
@TARGET India should get the Rafale. It doesn't need the extra support costs of another different aircraft. Even though the Super Hornet lll is the better aircraft IMO.
They were real competitions. Of course your wouldn't have won. It's doubtful you even came second. I would think that would have been the super/growler
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For carrier-based aircraft ... It's all about weapons package, cost of a long-term maintenance package, operating cost, availability of aircraft on the deck, and finally value for money. We will decide the best and also the market is watching closely this tender... since it impacts the global arms market which we have already seen in the case of Rafale it gained popularity after the Indian purchase.
Apparently some people think this is how geopolitics works...
Vietnam: We are in the market for a new "Western" fighter plane.
France: You should buy from our competitors.
Common sense? Logic? No, no, those are alien concepts.
Anyway, here's something interesting:
“Why did Vietnam Cancel its Defence Engagements with the US?” by Le Hong Hiep
2018/103, 11 December 2018 In mid-October 2018, Vietnam scholar Carlyle A. Thayer reported that Vietnam quietly cancelled fifteen defence engagement activities with the United States scheduled for 2019 involving army, navy and air force exchanges. Given the robust strategic rapprochement between...
Personally, I feel the Vietnamese will buy from the French simply because of France-China relations being less volatile than the US-China relations, for the high end requirement. For the low end, Tejas will have to compete with the F-16. So this will have all their geopolitical bases covered.
Both S-400 and MRSAM will be more or less finishing up this year. Apparently Sept 2022 for the S-400 and around March 2023 for the MRSAM.
It should make the budget space available for the MKI upgrade. I'm hoping to see us signing helicopter contracts, it's a critical need, much more so than Rafale.
Now we have both Su 30 and Rafale , so we can pitch them against each other , so that we can find out the exact upgrades that we require for Su 30
If through and after new jammers and Radar the Su 30 is able to fight Rafale , then J 20 will not be a threat
I am ok with the MKI upgrade for Uttam and R37 and about the new Jammer, I am still ok with Israeli Jammer may be a software upgrade for ECM will do the job. Helicopters purchase... are we going for extra Chinook and Apache?
I doubt what India or Indo does, influences global markets. The global market is F-35. Those that can't get the F-35 are fought over by a few. That Rafale and F-15 and F-16 are mainly winning. Long term costs, radar and weapon types goes to the SH. Having 2 aircraft, it goes to the Rafale. It just makes sense to consolidate the fleet.
Investing heavily on SAM for a air defense is the strategies of weak nation, it may looks like logical but its a non effective solution. We could have get easily a minimum of 54 samples as a follow on order with the money we spend on that Russian system.
Historically in a real battle field( conventional) its the airforce made difference, not SAMs.
I don’t think the Rafale should be overly deified. The Rafale is just an ordinary 4.5-generation fighter, which is no different from the J10C and J16. The Rafale’s more comprehensive performance and less political cost are the main reasons for its popularity.
Besides, the electronic warfare capability, Rafale and Gripen have only self-defense electronic warfare capability. F35 relies on the operational cloud and mosaic warfare theory developed by its advanced network-centric warfare capability to achieve adaptive electromagnetic interference to the theater (F35 is a very terrible fighter)
It is extremely wrong that fighter jets will replace large electronic fighters in the future. The electronic warfare capabilities of fighter jets are improving. Isn't the ability of large electronic fighters improving?
Take the United States as an example
Next, large electronic warfare aircraft (EC-37B Compass Call II), electronic jammer (carrying NGj pod EA18G) and F35 will constitute the future air electronic warfare system of the United States
NGj
EC-37B
During the Fourth Middle East War, the Arab coalition used the SA-6 to shoot down 70% of Israel's fighter jets. This is history. The S400 is more important to India than the Rafale fighter jet. This is the first time India has obtained a long-range air defense system.
French China relationship = less volatile , so Vietnam buys from France. Apparently some hangovers last more than the others & I wasn't referring to the relationship between the Vietnamese & the French.
Dassault must be ruing their prospects. All along they were targeting SE Asia & the biggest prize there eluded their gaze.
Dassault must be ruing their prospects. All along they were targeting SE Asia & the biggest prize there eluded their gaze.