Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[randomradio]

I don’t think the Rafale should be overly deified. The Rafale is just an ordinary 4.5-generation fighter, which is no different from the J10C and J16. The Rafale’s more comprehensive performance and less political cost are the main reasons for its popularity.
Besides, the electronic warfare capability, Rafale and Gripen have only self-defense electronic warfare capability. F35 relies on the operational cloud and mosaic warfare theory developed by its advanced network-centric warfare capability to achieve adaptive electromagnetic interference to the theater (F35 is a very terrible fighter)
It is extremely wrong that fighter jets will replace large electronic fighters in the future. The electronic warfare capabilities of fighter jets are improving. Isn't the ability of large electronic fighters improving?
Take the United States as an example
Next, large electronic warfare aircraft (EC-37B Compass Call II), electronic jammer (carrying NGj pod EA18G) and F35 will constitute the future air electronic warfare system of the United States
View attachment 22711

NGj
View attachment 22712
EC-37B

Even as per the Americans, the Growler is not necessary to support the F-35. The same story with the Rafale. While Growler performs jamming, the Rafale performs deception. So the Growler would actually get in the way of the Rafale's mission.

Gen. Mike Hostage On The F-35; No Growlers Needed When War Starts - Breaking Defense

For years, the news about the most expensive conventional weapons system in US history, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, has been driven by its soaring costs, technical problems and schedule screw-ups. The government and Congress and the public rarely speak about what the F-35 will do, how...

breakingdefense.com

Growlers are not front-line aircraft for the first week of war, Hostage argues. They will be useful against a high-end opponent for the same reason that other fourth-generation aircraft such as F-15s and F-16s will be: for “volume” in the face of superior enemy numbers.

“But in the first moments of a conflict I’m not sending Growlers or F-16s or F-15Es anywhere close to that environment, so now I’m going to have to put my fifth gen in there and that’s where that radar cross-section and the exchange of the kill chain is so critical. You’re not going to get a Growler close up to help in the first hours and days of the conflict, so I’m going to be relying on that stealth to open the door,” Hostage says.

Rafale works a bit differently than the F-35 due to the lack of passive stealth. But the end goal is the same. It uses Spectra to reduce its RCS to move in closer and act as a sensor, while the shooter flies below horizon to make the kill. Otoh Growlers are not discrete and prevent the use of such tactics.

Compass Call is something else entirely, it doesn't conflict with the Rafale or F-35 or stealth in general.

 

[Hydra]

During the Fourth Middle East War, the Arab coalition used the SA-6 to shoot down 70% of Israel's fighter jets. This is history. The S400 is more important to India than the Rafale fighter jet. This is the first time India has obtained a long-range air defense system.

And who won the war? Who is accounter more kills? Israeli fighter jets or the so called formidable sams?

What was the out come of the first Gulf war? Baghdad was the most defended airspace in that time after Moscow before first gulf war, yet NATO aircrafts having an easy walk over Iraq.

 

[Hydra]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1492424459462258693

Its actually happened, only difference was its with C17 & IAF instead of Rafale & IAF.

 

[xxxxx]

Even as per the Americans, the Growler is not necessary to support the F-35. The same story with the Rafale. While Growler performs jamming, the Rafale performs deception. So the Growler would actually get in the way of the Rafale's mission.

Gen. Mike Hostage On The F-35; No Growlers Needed When War Starts - Breaking Defense

For years, the news about the most expensive conventional weapons system in US history, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, has been driven by its soaring costs, technical problems and schedule screw-ups. The government and Congress and the public rarely speak about what the F-35 will do, how...

breakingdefense.com

Growlers are not front-line aircraft for the first week of war, Hostage argues. They will be useful against a high-end opponent for the same reason that other fourth-generation aircraft such as F-15s and F-16s will be: for “volume” in the face of superior enemy numbers.

“But in the first moments of a conflict I’m not sending Growlers or F-16s or F-15Es anywhere close to that environment, so now I’m going to have to put my fifth gen in there and that’s where that radar cross-section and the exchange of the kill chain is so critical. You’re not going to get a Growler close up to help in the first hours and days of the conflict, so I’m going to be relying on that stealth to open the door,” Hostage says.

Rafale works a bit differently than the F-35 due to the lack of passive stealth. But the end goal is the same. It uses Spectra to reduce its RCS to move in closer and act as a sensor, while the shooter flies below horizon to make the kill. Otoh Growlers are not discrete and prevent the use of such tactics.

Compass Call is something else entirely, it doesn't conflict with the Rafale or F-35 or stealth in general.

First of all, EA18 will not be on the front line like F15 and F16. This is a kind of accompanying electronic interference. This is the electronic warfare mode of traditional EA18G.

Diagram illustrating how the EA-18G flies safely beyond the known range of enemy surface-to-air missiles while interfering with enemy air defenses along with other attack aircraft and electronic warfare assets
The United States pursues stealth drones that penetrate denied airspace and conduct electronic attacks. The concept has been discussed for years, but the rapidly maturing unmanned technology, and even the disclosure of platforms that can host such a mission set, has made this capability more accessible.

A 2010 USAF slide illustrating the need for a penetrating alternative airborne electronic attack (P-AEA) platform more than a decade ago
Therefore, it is not feasible to rely solely on fighter jets to perform electronic warfare.

 

[xxxxx]

The same story with the Rafale. While Growler performs jamming, the Rafale performs deception. So the Growler would actually get in the way of the Rafale's mission.

I have never known what the so-called Rafale fighter deception means. I think it should be to create false targets on the enemy radar. First of all, this is a common method of electronic warfare. It is usually used for self-defense interference of fighter aircraft. I remember that the EA6B in the United States has this a means,
If you can find the radar images released by India after the 2019 India-Pakistan air war, you will find that this jamming mode has applications in China's foreign trade electronic warfare system
But the F35 is different. In my memory, the F35 can form a network on its own to achieve electromagnetic interference to the full spectrum. This is the de-noded mosaic battle.

 

[randomradio]

First of all, EA18 will not be on the front line like F15 and F16. This is a kind of accompanying electronic interference. This is the electronic warfare mode of traditional EA18G.
View attachment 22716

Diagram illustrating how the EA-18G flies safely beyond the known range of enemy surface-to-air missiles while interfering with enemy air defenses along with other attack aircraft and electronic warfare assets
The United States pursues stealth drones that penetrate denied airspace and conduct electronic attacks. The concept has been discussed for years, but the rapidly maturing unmanned technology, and even the disclosure of platforms that can host such a mission set, has made this capability more accessible.
View attachment 22717
A 2010 USAF slide illustrating the need for a penetrating alternative airborne electronic attack (P-AEA) platform more than a decade ago
Therefore, it is not feasible to rely solely on fighter jets to perform electronic warfare.

You are being far too specific, like claiming artillery is not on the frontlines, but the tank is. No, both are on the frontlines, they are just performing different roles. What Hostage is trying to say is the Growler, F-15, F-16 etc won't even be flying anywhere near the enemy on the first day.

Think about it this way. If a Growler is used, it will announce its presence to the enemy and the enemy will prepare to receive an attack. But an aircraft like the Rafale will announce its presence to an enemy after it has fired at the enemy. So the design philosophy is not the same.

If you haven't noticed, the French have not created an anti-radiation missile for the Rafale for SEAD/DEAD. They believe that going close to the enemy and using a PGM is sufficient. They believe that the Rafale has the ability to get very close to the enemy without detection.

I have never known what the so-called Rafale fighter deception means. I think it should be to create false targets on the enemy radar. First of all, this is a common method of electronic warfare. It is usually used for self-defense interference of fighter aircraft. I remember that the EA6B in the United States has this a means,
If you can find the radar images released by India after the 2019 India-Pakistan air war, you will find that this jamming mode has applications in China's foreign trade electronic warfare system
But the F35 is different. In my memory, the F35 can form a network on its own to achieve electromagnetic interference to the full spectrum. This is the de-noded mosaic battle.

Yes, false targets. Even though it's a "common method", there is a quality factor involved too. Like comparing iPhone to Android phones.

 

[xxxxx]

You are being far too specific, like claiming artillery is not on the frontlines, but the tank is. No, both are on the frontlines, they are just performing different roles. What Hostage is trying to say is the Growler, F-15, F-16 etc won't even be flying anywhere near the enemy on the first day.

What he should say is penetrating air superiority. In the early stage of the war, stealth fighters were used to attack important battlefield nodes, destroying the enemy's OODA cycle and opening the door for subsequent non-stealth fighters. This is called J20 kicking the door in China, and J16 sweeping.

Think about it this way. If a Growler is used, it will announce its presence to the enemy and the enemy will prepare to receive an attack. But an aircraft like the Rafale will announce its presence to an enemy after it has fired at the enemy. So the design philosophy is not the same.

EA18G can suppress the ground air defense radar, the naval Aegis system, and the airborne early warning aircraft. It belongs to the accompanying electronic jamming and is part of the attack. The artillery fought directly against the tanks,
Rafale fighter, his electronic warfare system is mainly used for self-defense, mainly for jamming fighter radar, like a better tank,
But you can't stop buying artillery just because you have a good tank
And I don't know how a non-stealth fighter can get so close to the enemy to be detected.
If the so-called active stealth is said, I think it is purely a French propaganda method.

If you haven't noticed, the French have not created an anti-radiation missile for the Rafale for SEAD/DEAD. They believe that going close to the enemy and using a PGM is sufficient. They believe that the Rafale has the ability to get very close to the enemy without detection.

I don't know where the French got such confidence? Even the F35 is testing the AGM88G missile with a range of 200KM to deal with the S400 and HQ9B

Yes, false targets. Even though it's a "common method", there is a quality factor involved too. Like comparing iPhone to Android phones.

If you mean the French fighter jets are better? Is there any proof? I don't think France's avionics level can surpass the US, or even China,

 

[_Anonymous_]

I don't think France's avionics level can surpass the US, or even China,

O boy o boy ! He's seem to have thrown down the gauntlet to the French here. Frankly , I don't know what it is about the French . Every other non Indian member here either belittles them or considers them of no consequence or takes them for granted.

 

[Optimist]

First of all, EA18 will not be on the front line like F15 and F16. This is a kind of accompanying electronic interference. This is the electronic warfare mode of traditional EA18G.
View attachment 22716

Diagram illustrating how the EA-18G flies safely beyond the known range of enemy surface-to-air missiles while interfering with enemy air defenses along with other attack aircraft and electronic warfare assets
The United States pursues stealth drones that penetrate denied airspace and conduct electronic attacks. The concept has been discussed for years, but the rapidly maturing unmanned technology, and even the disclosure of platforms that can host such a mission set, has made this capability more accessible.
View attachment 22717
A 2010 USAF slide illustrating the need for a penetrating alternative airborne electronic attack (P-AEA) platform more than a decade ago
Therefore, it is not feasible to rely solely on fighter jets to perform electronic warfare.

They really don't know what you are talking about. They think a self defence set up, is a full EW/EA capability. Not a lot realise that Australia can be added to that list.

Australia Set To Become One Of The World's Top Aerial Electronic Warfare Powers

Along with Growlers and other capabilities, five Gulfstream jets fitted with the latest electronic warfare and surveillance gear are being ordered by the RAAF.

www.thedrive.com

 

[Lolwa]

I don't think France's avionics level can surpass the US, or even China,

China is far behind french avionics although the U.S is ahead of the French but not by much. Looking at Chinese exports I doubt they are better than Russian avionics. Chinese are right now ahead of the Russians but behind Turks and other western European countries in terms of avionics and electronic warfare.

 

[randomradio]

What he should say is penetrating air superiority. In the early stage of the war, stealth fighters were used to attack important battlefield nodes, destroying the enemy's OODA cycle and opening the door for subsequent non-stealth fighters. This is called J20 kicking the door in China, and J16 sweeping.

But you can see that the USAF has a lot more next gen fighters than China, so they will use that more.

EA18G can suppress the ground air defense radar, the naval Aegis system, and the airborne early warning aircraft. It belongs to the accompanying electronic jamming and is part of the attack.

Rafale can do the same.

Rafale fighter, his electronic warfare system is mainly used for self-defense, mainly for jamming fighter radar

No, it can do the same, and from closer ranges. The French wouldn't spend so much money on something that can only do self-protection. The only thing missing is higher power, and that should be solved on the F4.2 with conformal arrays, if news reports are to be believed.

If you recall, the IAF asked for a low band jammer to be equipped on the F3R. There's no point in equipping it if it can't jam everything that you mentioned.

And I don't know how a non-stealth fighter can get so close to the enemy to be detected.
If the so-called active stealth is said, I think it is purely a French propaganda method.

I suppose the IAF would know by now.

I don't know where the French got such confidence? Even the F35 is testing the AGM88G missile with a range of 200KM to deal with the S400 and HQ9B

ARM is a good option to have, but the French are not chasing after it for reasons they know best. If other air forces with Rafale also do the same, then you have your answer.

If you mean the French fighter jets are better? Is there any proof? I don't think France's avionics level can surpass the US, or even China,

It's perfectly fine for you to believe China is better than France because there is no way for us to compare in any case. It's unlikely for both countries to compete in a common tender, and the only way to know is to go to war, which is not going to happen anytime soon.

 

[Optimist]

China is far behind french avionics although the U.S is ahead of the French but not by much. Looking at Chinese exports I doubt they are better than Russian avionics. Chinese are right now ahead of the Russians but behind Turks and other western European countries in terms of avionics and electronic warfare.

I wish that was true about China. It would make things so much easier.
Russia and France are so good, that India is using Israeli EW/EA tech.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Russia and France are so good, that India is using Israeli EW/EA tech.

India uses Israeli , French & increasingly indigenously developed EW equipment expected to replace the former in due course. You should look at the Netra AEW & CS we've developed & deployed nearly 5-6 yrs ago or the indigenously developed AESA radar which is currently in it's last phase of trials before going into the Tejas LCA Mk-1a with a more advanced iteration being developed for the LCA Mk-2 .

Let's contrast that to an advanced nation like Australia & ask how many similar systems has Australia developed & deployed given that it's actively collaborating with the US in the same domain.

That should give you some inkling on French developments in the field apart from Russian & Chinese too or is this once again a case of basking in US's & UK's reflected glory as far as Australia is concerned.

 

[xxxxx]

But you can see that the USAF has a lot more next gen fighters than China, so they will use that more.

First of all, penetrating air superiority was proposed by the United States, not China
Penetrating air combat is
When facing an enemy with a well-established C4I system, attack its important battlefield nodes, thereby disrupting the OODA loop,
As potential opponents' homeland air defense systems become more sophisticated and stronger, for the U.S. Air Force, the pursuit of full-time, all-theater sustained air superiority has become a luxury for the U.S. Air Force. In this case, the penetrating air dominance (PAC) theory came into being, which no longer emphasizes the US Air Force's comprehensive air superiority in a high-threat environment, but is committed to relying on a strong reconnaissance intelligence system to find out the opponent's air defense In the weak areas of time and space, the system concentrates its strength to deliver a violent and rapid blow, and then retreats all over before the opponent concentrates its counter-attack, quickly fights and retreats, gains air superiority within a limited time and space, and launches a deep attack or Cover other forces to fight and gain a certain advantage, relying on such penetrating strikes for many times in a row, continue to expand the advantage, and finally change the quantity into a qualitative change.
This has nothing to do with the number of aircraft, this is the model of future air combat,

Rafale can do the same.

End it, my friend, I can't convince you,

It's perfectly fine for you to believe China is better than France because there is no way for us to compare in any case. It's unlikely for both countries to compete in a common tender, and the only way to know is to go to war, which is not going to happen anytime soon.

Yes, for example, the level of T/R parts and the level of A/D chips, but they are too professional, so I won’t discuss them.

 

[Optimist]

I like basking and US is buying our E-7A and following our MC-55A Peregrine example.
Are you telling me it is French EW/EA tech going into the indigenous aircraft. I find that hard to believe, they aren't noted for EW/EA. To the point they have to make up myths. Which even if true, active cancelation wouldn't work in todays, distributed and interconnected battlefield.

 

[xxxxx]

China is far behind french avionics although the U.S is ahead of the French but not by much. Looking at Chinese exports I doubt they are better than Russian avionics. Chinese are right now ahead of the Russians but behind Turks and other western European countries in terms of avionics and electronic warfare.

How did you come to the conclusion from China's export that the level of China's electronics industry is not as good as Turkey's?

 

[_Anonymous_]

I like basking and US is buying our E-7A and following our MC-55A Peregrine example.

I can see that like all Aussies you love basking a little too much for your own good . Hence the Wedgetail & Peregrine becomes "yours" to claim. Well , good for you .

Are you telling me it is French EW/EA tech going into the indigenous aircraft.

I thought what I wrote was pretty straightforward English. Where did you see any reference to France in my post describing the NETRA AEW & CS ? Pls point it out to me .

I find that hard to believe, they aren't noted for EW/EA. To the point they have to make up myths. Which even if true, active cancelation wouldn't work in todays, distributed and interconnected battlefield.

You need to take it up with the French.

How did you come to the conclusion from China's export that the level of China's electronics industry is not as good as Turkey's?

He's going by the quality of your consumer electronics as compared to the Turkish ones. I don't blame him.

 

[Optimist]

We should do a poll on what will be Frances new EW/EA myth for the 21st century. The old one from the 1970's is getting really old.

 

[xxxxx]

They really don't know what you are talking about. They think a self defence set up, is a full EW/EA capability. Not a lot realise that Australia can be added to that list.

Australia Set To Become One Of The World's Top Aerial Electronic Warfare Powers

Along with Growlers and other capabilities, five Gulfstream jets fitted with the latest electronic warfare and surveillance gear are being ordered by the RAAF.

www.thedrive.com

In fact, India's electronic warfare capabilities are relatively weak. In the 2019 India-Pakistan air battle, India's communication was seriously interfered by Pakistan, which also caused the MIG21 to not even know that it had crossed the actual control line, and the DA20 large electronic fighter played a great role. It is equipped with China's JN1101-F communication countermeasure system
India's electronic warfare capabilities mainly rely on pods purchased from France and Israel,

 

[xxxxx]

He's going by the quality of your consumer electronics as compared to the Turkish ones. I don't blame him.

First of all, if you say that the mobile phones that China sells in India are very cheap, so China's electronic warfare capability is very poor, this is quite wrong, first of all, India's consumption level itself is very low, and cheap electronic products are of course very marketable
Secondly, the level of civilian products is not related to the level of military electronic warfare. For example, Taiwan has the most advanced chip manufacturing process in the world, 4nm. In mainland China, it is 14nm.
But when we flew around Taiwan, we found that the level of electronic warfare in Taiwan was very low, a lot of equipment was stuck in 1970, and we even needed to change the program to interfere with such old equipment,
And India's radars and equipment can't catch up with Taiwan. Most of them are Soviet radars of the last century, and there are also a small number of Israeli turquoise radars.