Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[Amit228]

~40 more Su-30
72-90 Rafales
114 Lockheed F-21
83 LCA Mk-1A

57 Rafale M

That's all we really need. The MWF by 2030 is a pointless acquisition when you have all of that capability available today in form of F-21/Gripen. That project should be terminated - it would be too little too late by the time it makes it to service...a repeat of Mk-1 saga.

Additional MiG-29s in my opinion are a waste of capex. They will outlive their usefulness very very soon. As will MKI if the upgrade doesn't move through.

Next Gen fighter project should be pursued in partnership with Dassault/Airbus. Any purchase (off shelf or otherwise) of Su-57 should be avoided if at all possible...it'd be more trouble than it's worth.

I second that!! If indeed additional orders of rafales are being placed.. then F-21 will be picked for mmrca2.0.. with current geopolitics predicting!! F-21 will be the bargaining chip used by india to avoid CAATSA sanctions impeding while S-400 purchase!! With Lockheed Martin adamant to transfer their production lines in india in strategic partnerships with TATA.. it's makes an enticing case!!

Also worth mentioning originally after canceling mmrca1.0 IAF approaced MOD to get 114 singel engine fighter aircrafts.. why??? To keep cost low...Considering budget constraints nd operating cost...IAF needs nos.. as nos have their own quality!!! Worth mentioning ..Taiwan is buying block 66 nos of f-16 block 70 from US for cost of 8 billion dollars!!!! Now compare we got 36 aircraft for approximately same amount nd even without ISE 36 nos rafale will cost 6 billion...

 

[Sathya]

I second that!! If indeed additional orders of rafales are being placed.. then F-21 will be picked for mmrca2.0.. with current geopolitics predicting!! F-21 will be the bargaining chip used by india to avoid CAATSA sanctions impeding while S-400 purchase!! With Lockheed Martin adamant to transfer their production lines in india in strategic partnerships with TATA.. it's makes an enticing case!!

Also worth mentioning originally after canceling mmrca1.0 IAF approaced MOD to get 114 singel engine fighter aircrafts.. why??? To keep cost low...Considering budget constraints nd operating cost...IAF needs nos.. as nos have their own quality!!! Worth mentioning ..Taiwan is buying block 66 nos of f-16 block 70 from US for cost of 8 billion dollars!!!! Now compare we got 36 aircraft for approximately same amount nd even without ISE 36 nos rafale will cost 6 billion...

Taiwan already has base, training, simulator, maintenance program everything. .

Cost comes to 120 million $ a pop even after that.

Not exactly cheaper.

Hal recently announced new production equipment something..

And going to make private players as subcontractors..

Mk1A is getting ready with Uttam and integrating Astra as we speak ( yesterday Harsha vardhan tweet)

MWF Design is over, most likely succeed after mk1A..

If only a private player gets to do final assembly of MWF in addiction ( competition ) to HAL, we can improve standards of both companies also gets more numbers in short time.

 

[Amit228]

Taiwan already has base, training, simulator, maintenance program everything. .

Cost comes to 120 million $ a pop even after that.

Not exactly cheaper.

Hal recently announced new production equipment something..

And going to make private players as subcontractors..

Mk1A is getting ready with Uttam and integrating Astra as we speak ( yesterday Harsha vardhan tweet)

MWF Design is over, most likely succeed after mk1A..

If only a private player gets to do final assembly of MWF in addiction ( competition ) to HAL, we can improve standards of both companies also gets more numbers in short time.

IAF had originally proceeded for single engine mmrca only due to cost..entailing lower operating cost for single engine aircraft as compared to dual engines one... however later it was changed to include all dual engines aircrafts... This does imply IAF is serious about single engine aircraft in terminology of MMRCA.. (sans Tejas) conscious of cost involved (operating cost)

Now for HAL.. I don't think it will show any signs of improvement untill major revamp is done... Recently only we are witnessing OFB employees going retards.. doing strikes in wake of restructuring.. these dunderheads babus in defence public cos.. are just used to tea cookies parties sucking at govt budgets!!....for years they have been providing dollies in name of indeginous equipment.. with no accountability nd liability.... Not even a single brain cell of mine will vouche for bummers a la HAL nd OFB... Even if we resort to public private partnership.. then we have to make sure to keep major share of work to private cos nd with it's top mananger at helm.. instead of a govt babu...
About mk1A.. isn't it supposed to house elta 2052 aesa instead of uttam.. nd with derby ER as it's primary BVR missiles??

 

[Sathya]

IAF had originally proceeded for single engine mmrca only due to cost..entailing lower operating cost for single engine aircraft as compared to dual engines one... however later it was changed to include all dual engines aircrafts... This does imply IAF is serious about single engine aircraft in terminology of MMRCA.. (sans Tejas) conscious of cost involved (operating cost)

Now for HAL.. I don't think it will show any signs of improvement untill major revamp is done... Recently only we are witnessing OFB employees going retards.. doing strikes in wake of restructuring.. these dunderheads babus in defence public cos.. are just used to tea cookies parties sucking at govt budgets!!....for years they have been providing dollies in name of indeginous equipment.. with no accountability nd liability.... Not even a single brain cell of mine will vouche for bummers a la HAL nd OFB... Even if we resort to public private partnership.. then we have to make sure to keep major share of work to private cos nd with it's top mananger at helm.. instead of a govt babu...
About mk1A.. isn't it supposed to house elta 2052 aesa instead of uttam.. nd with derby ER as it's primary BVR missiles??

Yeah Elta won the contract but Harsha vardhan said Uttam will take over whenever it is ready.

And new company making F21 will take as much longer as MWF excepting Rafale at Dral..

Best is to make MWF also at private company .. If Rafale MII is not pursued better to make MWF at DRAL taking French assistance and increasing Indian share of company.

Competition between private and HAL will bring for the best out of both.

Regarding innovation in private sectors, GoI not seem to award contract to any innovation...
Also duplication of efforts going on..
Clearly there is no national collective mission in getting it up.

Got kestrel, Bharat forge guns, rifle in partner ship with IWI.. Nothing got contract. I don't think any bigger effort will be done in private sector.

We can assume from innovations in their civilian products.

 

[Austerlitz]

So u want IAF to place their bets on an aircraft (MWF) which is still in drawing boards!!! With no guarantee of time frame, delays, roadblocks nd most importantly lax workmanship of HAL nd DRDO!!!

Any sane mind in IAF won't simply trust on infamous HAL as depicted from it's delinquent attitude!!! Few months ago..A newly upgraded mirage2k straight from HAL plant crashed... In which we lost precious lifes of our two pilots...with all fingers pointing towards hal lax workmanship.. IAF was furious nd rightly so!! There was no PILOT ERROR.. this is what IAF was yelling about despicable HAL..nd this is not a single incident!! Case against HAL Is pretty strong!!

Mirage 2000 Crash: HAL Comes Under Cloud | NewsClick

Now, what is the guarantee HAL won't fluff mwf this time!! Who is accountable for delays.. if again IAF is left clutching at straws.. due to mitigating squadrons strength!!...

I will rather place my bet on any private player.. to foray in Indian aerospace industry...with SP model.. ending monopoly of infamous HAL once for nd all!! MMRCA 2.0 is the breathing line for IAF to their dwindling squadrons strength.. with mmrca in kitty.. even if hal fluffs (high chance) with MWF.. iaf won't be left in a state of quagmire!! Rather involve private players manufacturing MMRCA locally in AMCA they will have high chance delivering required aircraft at required timeframe as compared to HAL!!

I am saying at some point you have to bite the bullet and back your own industry.Thats what navy did and IAF refused to do.Import addiction has to end,if that means pain for IAF so be it.MWF production need not be restricted to HAL alone.I am all for mrca 2 IF it can be run simultaneously with mwf.But if mrca 2 means sacrificing mwf,never. Without mwf we dont have amca,lets be clear on that.So tejas will become another one off lost project like marut with no continuity.Secondly the mrca rafale cost 125 million,f21 will cost at least 100 million.Taiwan deal it cost 120 million.On top of that you want them made here,so price will jump even further.You will be dependant on everything for their upkeep,everything imported from radar to ew suite to weaponry,all in dollars.In mwf only engine would be.So mrca will end like mrca 1 costing over 30 billion dollars,which govt simply wont allocate to air force. Remember vaunted mrca is not 5th gen either,so no diff with mwf in that regard.
Lets back mwf,upgrade sukhois and whenever there is a need induct a batch of 36 rafales.
The only scenario i see for mrca being indispensable is if we get stuck on mwf and amca.But we have to try before we give up.Learn from china.Once you indigenize prices come fown significantly and you can build large numbers.

 

[Austerlitz]

F21 ...f21 ..everyone is dancing.Whats special about it? Almost 80% of rafales cost.And forget it uncle sam isnt going to ToT Aesa radar tech,or engine tech or EW suite to you.They dont give them even to their closest allies.The weapon systems will cost you arm and leg.Only good thing is its reliability and single engine.On top you got sanctions and supervision fear.On top of that you add a whole new aircraft to inventory costing billions more.But worst of all it is not stealth at all,what will f21 do against chinese stealth fighters.Rafale has LO to a degree,composites and spectra.MWF has y shaped intakes and composites,f16 has same intakes as original model,and 80% alumunium body.So its only hope is a long wave irst,which we can get with rafale anyway.All main f16 operators are moving to f35 - japan,israel, europe,turkey wanted to.And here we are hailing it as saviour.Noo bitch.no.

Rant over.

 

[Bon Plan]

U mean it's not going to be F4?

No. I just say that for now only the F3R is technically defined, and has a known price.
All the F3R built Rafale, so including Indians one, has all the provisions so as to be upgraded to full F4 (the older ones will probably stay at an intermediate standard call F4.1. Full F4 is the F4.2).
But F4 is on the drawing board. But you can be sure that IAF is aware of 95% of the contents of this F4.2. And maybe F4.2 is studied with some Indians operational requests in mind....

 

[Bon Plan]

F21 ...f21 ..everyone is dancing.Whats special about it? Almost 80% of rafales cost.And forget it uncle sam isnt going to ToT Aesa radar tech,or engine tech or EW suite to you.They dont give them even to their closest allies.The weapon systems will cost you arm and leg.Only good thing is its reliability and single engine.On top you got sanctions and supervision fear.On top of that you add a whole new aircraft to inventory costing billions more.But worst of all it is not stealth at all,what will f21 do against chinese stealth fighters.Rafale has LO to a degree,composites and spectra.MWF has y shaped intakes and composites,f16 has same intakes as original model,and 80% alumunium body.So its only hope is a long wave irst,which we can get with rafale anyway.All main f16 operators are moving to f35 - japan,israel, europe,turkey wanted to.And here we are hailing it as saviour.Noo bitch.no.

Rant over.

Absolutely.
F21 remains a F16 in its heart. Rafale outgunned it in every role.
F21 for India is interesting only if it costs really far less than Rafale.
The Rafale unit cost is in the 100 million €. A 100 million$ F21 is a waste of money.

 

[Austerlitz]

See if french can offer us 36 more rafales for less than 6 billion euros,lets say we get 72 more of them ,that would be deal done at 13 billion dollars,plus lets say a couple billion more for producing here and helping indian aerospace infustry.We would have a fighter that can take on the new chinese designs,has future growth potential and can be wrapped up within a 15 billion dollar budget which for me is the high threshold of how high we can go without sacrificing sukhoi upgrade and lca.15 billion over 10 years is sustainable for IAF.Make up rest squadrons with filker sukhoi ,migs and lca mk1a before moving to mk2 mwf.Then HAL could build mwf and upgeade sukhpis while private players do rafale f4.Going 114 would be 25 billion which would shut down the other programs.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

See if french can offer us 36 more rafales for less than 6 billion euros,lets say we get 72 more of them ,that would be deal done at 13 billion dollars,plus lets say a couple billion more for producing here and helping indian aerospace infustry.We would have a fighter that can take on the new chinese designs,has future growth potential and can be wrapped up within a 15 billion dollar budget which for me is the high threshold of how high we can go without sacrificing sukhoi upgrade and lca.15 billion over 10 years is sustainable for IAF.Make up rest squadrons with filker sukhoi ,migs and lca mk1a before moving to mk2 mwf.Then HAL could build mwf and upgeade sukhpis while private players do rafale f4.Going 114 would be 25 billion which would shut down the other programs.

The prices between the French and US contracts are not comparable. French contracts in general include everything that allows you to use the aircraft you sell, whereas US contracts only include aircraft in general, the complement is then part of other contracts executed with a lot of discretion. This is evident when an option is exercised for a French contract because there is a much larger decrease in the unit price than when it is for an American contract. For example, Qatar exercised an option for 12 Rafale for 1.1 billion euros while the first 24 had cost 6.3 billion euros.

Qatar, France Sign $1 Billion Rafale Fighter Jet Deal Amid Gulf Crisis
Qatar, France Sign $1 Billion Rafale Fighter Jet Deal Amid Gulf Crisis

DOHA: Qatar announced Thursday a deal to buy 12 French-built Rafale fighter jets, as it faces a boycott by neighbouring Gulf states in the region's worst political crisis in years.

The 1.1-billion-euro ($1.3-billion) order, announced during an official visit by French President Emmanuel Macron, allows for an option to buy a further 36 jets.

It comes on top of a 2015 agreement on the purchase of 24 Dassault Aviation-built Rafale warplanes.

 

[randomradio]

Rafale deal: France may offer 36 more Rafale aircraft to India

6 billion € .. Why so costly?
Unless a new base or some other weapons are included..

Will F4 cost so much over F3R?

@randomradio @bonplan

It says "less than 6B", so the author is simply speculating.

 

[Parthu]

You are basically asking to end the domestic fighter program.Without mastering mwf you cant go into amca production.Infact mmrca 2 should be avoided and given to mwf, all contenders are 80% price of rafale and non 5th gen..so no different from mwf.Just get 36 more rafales..1 sq each of mig and sukhoi..upgrade the sukhoi..and 4 lca mk1a.Then mwf.If the down the line more squadrons are needed we can make a 3rd rafale 2sq batch purchase.
Above is best option unless we need extensive industrial help which only mmrca 2 can provide and without which mwf or amca will be stuck.Thats the big argument for mrca 2.If we can build mwf world class on our own..no need for mrca2.Just a rafale batch and filler sukhoi/mig.

One has to choose whether they wish to use the industry to sustain the forces, or use the forces as a guinea pig in a bid to sustain a poorly performing industry. The second is what you are proposing with the above argument.

But if that is to be one's choice. Fine - but then one cannot complain when the IAF fleet is composed of ridiculously outdated aircraft which are always at a tactical disadvantage in combat, and when we are fast approaching a position where we could fall below 50% of sanctioned strength because sustaining old planes becomes cost-prohibitive beyond a point, and the DPSUs remain unable to provide the promised modern planes within the timeframes needed....as a result of which IAF has to resort to poorly planned emergency G2G purchases to sustain the fleet's combat edge.

As I already said, MWF will only be ready for Series Production in 2030 regardless of whatever unrealistic targets DPSU representatives set to mislead planners & secure their revenue streams.

AMCA as a project is unrealistic in both scope & timeframe. India is simply not in a position to sustain development efforts of a true next-gen fighter all by itself. In fact even France, Germany, UK, Sweden & Russia (which have all built top-notch 4.5 gen jets already, unlike India which only has a 4.5 jet on drawing board) are not in a position to do that. Hence all the joint risk-sharing & cost-sharing partnerships in Europe and the frankly sub-par 'nextgen' coming in form of Su-57 from Russia but not without suffering the effects of cash crunch.

So as a closing note on all the jets:

Single-engine medium:
Either MWF in 2030 or foreign SEF by 2022 (if we go through with competition procedure it'll be 2025 easily, but not if we go G2G). Pursuing both simultaneously is lunacy.

Twin-engine medium:
Another one or two batches of Rafale, 36 per batch. Taking numbers to 72 or 108 for IAF.

Next-gen:
Joint partnership with France is only realistic option. They're the only ones who have the tech & budget to pull it off, and are a true strategic partner.

 

[randomradio]

The MWF by 2030 is a pointless acquisition when you have all of that capability available today in form of F-21/Gripen. That project should be terminated - it would be too little too late by the time it makes it to service...a repeat of Mk-1 saga.

Not gonna happen. MWF is important for indigenisation. Not to mention, keep HAL employees employed.

 

[Parthu]

Not gonna happen. MWF is important for indigenisation. Not to mention, keep HAL employees employed.

Ofcourse. Nothing good can happen in a world where DPSU dictates terms to the user rather than the other way round.

 

[Bon Plan]

In fact even France, Germany, UK, Sweden & Russia (which have all built top-notch 4.5 gen jets already, unlike India which only has a 4.5 jet on drawing board) are not in a position to do that.

Euh.... No!
France has all the knowledge and industrial partners to built a next gen aircraft alone. Dassault for the frame and FBW, Safran for engines, Thales for electronic suite, IRST and radar, Messier for undercarriage, MBDA for Weapons, up to Michelin for tyres, ONERA for air tests... and some others like Rafaut.
The sole french problem is money. To develop and produce alone a 6th gen fighter on the sole French needs (export is never assured) may compromise other weapons projects... But in case of, we have all the keys to do so.

Same for next main battle tank, intended with Germany for the same money reason.

 

[Bon Plan]

It says "less than 6B", so the author is simply speculating.

Indeed.
But it can be imagine a 3rd air base accommodated for Rafale...
72 Rafale on just 2 air bases is enough in peace time, may be not in war time.

 

[Janardan Shukla]

I knew it from the starting that IAF will buy 36 additional rafales and opt for mig 35 as mmrca. The statement of IAF chief that rafales are for strategic deterrence few months ago also indicated the same. In my opinion it is a wise choice since mig 35 is much cheaper we can produce it in large quantity and the familiarity of our pilots with mig platform also strengthen its bid whereas rafales will provide us much needed BVR edge against our rivals.
My prediction for 2035 IAF composition
300 - 350 su 30 mki
72 rafales.
114 - 150 mig 35
105 mig 29 upg and M 2000
200 - 250 Tejas mki1 + mk1A + mk2
AMCA - 54 - 96
Stealth LCA - 54 - 96
SU 57 most probably no.
Note : Bharat may chose to join the FCAS project and may also launch a separate indigenous project of heavy 6th gen fighter for replacing su 30 mki after 2065.

 

[Sathya]

Indeed.
But it can be imagine a 3rd air base accommodated for Rafale...
72 Rafale on just 2 air bases is enough in peace time, may be not in war time.

I would assume some additional weapons .. For 1.5 billion € .

My guess for Rafale alone about 4.3 billion €

 

[Sathya]

I knew it from the starting that IAF will buy 36 additional rafales and opt for mig 35 as mmrca. The statement of IAF chief that rafales are for strategic deterrence few months ago also indicated the same. In my opinion it is a wise choice since mig 35 is much cheaper we can produce it in large quantity and the familiarity of our pilots with mig platform also strengthen its bid whereas rafales will provide us much needed BVR edge against our rivals.
My prediction for 2035 IAF composition
300 - 350 su 30 mki
72 rafales.
114 - 150 mig 35
105 mig 29 upg and M 2000
200 - 250 Tejas mki1 + mk1A + mk2
AMCA - 54 - 96
Stealth LCA - 54 - 96
SU 57 most probably no.
Note : Bharat may chose to join the FCAS project and may also launch a separate indigenous project of heavy 6th gen fighter for replacing su 30 mki after 2065.

Mmrca excluded Russian planes to reduce dependency on them.

No stealth LCA.. Here we are hoping to see at least some orders for Mk1A or it's engine.. Until engine's are ordered there is not going to be Mk1A production.

 

[Janardan Shukla]

Mmrca excluded Russian planes to reduce dependency on them.

No stealth LCA.. Here we are hoping to see at least some orders for Mk1A or it's engine.. Until engine's are ordered there is not going to be Mk1A production.

Mark my words we are not going to exclude Russian planes due to their low cost, willingness to tot plus at present time we need to pacify Russians somewhat for our increasing bonhomie with USA. We will make stealth LCA as we will need single engine cheap but stealthy jets for intercepting Chinese jets.