Sukhoi Su-30MKI
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
We've enhanced the life of the airframes & the Turbo Fans of the Su-30 MKI we manufacture too. Help yourself to more information in this very thread for the details.
The high numbers are due to contradictory operating philosophies of the IAF as compared to the VKS. What this means is to make up for the limited life span of the air frames & the Turbo Fans of Russian make as compared to the west , the VKS used to , in the time of the USSR , manufacture Fighter Aircrafts in the thousands & exercise them sparingly whereas we imported them in small numbers & followed the western philosophy of operations which is exercising them in high intensity manoeuvres over a longer person of time which in turn involved higher maintenance & took a toll of the air frames and the turbo fans.
To make matters worse instead of retiring them as the Russians did at the end of the prescribed time we went in for life enhancing measures during the MLU which doubled the risk as seen in the accident rates of the MiG-21 which also happened to coincide with the collapse of the USSR which further complicated our issues.
Now for the nub of the matter - why's it the PLAAF never releases the number of hours it exercises a Fighter Aircraft in its inventory or the number of accidents you have ? What is the PLAAF or the CMC or the CCP afraid of ? If your record is so good it serves as a good advertisement for your products. If... being the key word here.
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Here comes 12 more.....
Wish it had been 48. 12 for replacement and 36 to raise 2 more squadrons all in super Sukhoi configuration to arrest falling squadron strength...
Here comes 12 more.....
Wish it had been 48. 12 for replacement and 36 to raise 2 more squadrons all in super Sukhoi configuration to arrest falling squadron strength...
Import it from Irkut, refit it at BRD. In 13.5k crore you will have between 42-45 Flankers.=
Here comes 12 more.....
Wish it had been 48. 12 for replacement and 36 to raise 2 more squadrons all in super Sukhoi configuration to arrest falling squadron strength...
Maturity of Upgraded configuration is 7 years away. You cant order that now.=
Here comes 12 more.....
Wish it had been 48. 12 for replacement and 36 to raise 2 more squadrons all in super Sukhoi configuration to arrest falling squadron strength...
If you zoom the above picture it mentions Su-30MKI only.
Wow !=
Here comes 12 more.....
Wish it had been 48. 12 for replacement and 36 to raise 2 more squadrons all in super Sukhoi configuration to arrest falling squadron strength...
12 MKIs in the old configuration for 13000 cr which works out to ~ 130 million USD. That's some royalty we're paying the Russkies.
Hopefully somebody in the know who's well acquainted with these dealings explains what appears to be daylight robbery , which should totally rule out any attempt at explanations by you know who especially since it's post 8 pm.
Economics.
Restarting a production line has some fixed costs. Long production timeline to ensure HAL labour associations have job adds more operational costs.
If we place an order of let's say 48 units , we can get it down at 110 mil a piece easily.
Order 70+ at 15+ annual capacity, you get at around 85-90 mil a piece.
Order 12 from Irkut, you get at 65mil a piece
Order 48+ you get as low as 45 mil a piece.
The 70+ order at higher capacity and higher local content would be my preference as we are in no position to actually sign the mmrca anytime soon.
As per RST , the Su-57 should be available for < 50 million or thereabouts. What's Irkut or KnAAPO got to do with the differential pricing ? I believe it's something to do with us observing past agreement where the FOREX rate was frozen against a high rouble vs an unstable rupee , which eventually turned out in Russia's favour & here we are.
Also given known facts by the CAG of HAL costing being ~ 2.25 - 2.5 x more , ideally imports should still cost us < 50 million USD / unit.
Besides are you factoring in amortization in your costing coz it doesn't look like it ? A more thorough comparison on pricing can be made when we compare current prices to what it was when the last MKI rolled out of HAL - Nashik in 2019.
But yes , I agree with you we should've gone on for at least 50 in a phased manner @12-15 / year to make up for the fall in IAF squadron numbers.
Its roughly 1.5 billion dollars, i am assuming its just a fly away conditions. 36 mki will costs u 4.5 billion, its as expensive as 36 Rafale. We are getting a jet at the price of Rafale but less advanced than LCA Tejas.
HAL imports already produced stuff in CKD format and then reassembles them in India. Add import duties and GST on these additional steps.
Directly getting these things built from Irkut saves the steps, money and time.
IAF needs to be realistic with timelines.
Haven't we already come out of this stage long ago ? I believe we're importing titanium blocks from them to machine & fabricate here. Most of the FA is made here except for imports of certain vital parts pertaining to the TF I believe. There's no CKD involved here.
You're referring to imports . We don't import the MKIs in finished form although it'd prove to be economical.
Should do so , by & large.
Order is with all associated equipment so not fly away cost.
Should be the cost of accepting Indian Upgrade of Su 30 .
Both this additional "12" & Upgrade timing are in coincidence. .
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Here comes 12 more.....
Wish it had been 48. 12 for replacement and 36 to raise 2 more squadrons all in super Sukhoi configuration to arrest falling squadron strength...
MKI is over, but more Vajras will be bought.
It's none of that. The package comes with more than just the jets. It's related to the MLU.
Ueans K9 Vajras? Are u saying that we will place more orders for K9,apart from the 100 piece cleared recently?
We already have 250+ MKIs flying, why would IAF purchase associated equipment for additional jets when these purchase is to fill the gap of jets we lost earlier? Missiles, radio etc from existing inventory can ne utilized, right?
Because equipment has a shelf life, the old ones are (obviously) used in the current fleet. Spares are consumable.
MLU package is separate Rs 63,000 cr for 84 airframes. This is only for original MKI.
Yes, an additional 100 is pending. 300 in total at the minimum.
This clubbing of deals has happened before. When the 2012 MKI contract for 42 was clubbed with Mi-17, people assumed the higher price was because it was a Super Sukhoi version with all new avionics. Some even assumed these are nuclear versions for the SFC, which later the IAF denied. Some even assumed it was cost gouging as people are claiming for this time as well. It was only sometime later that we got to know the deal included 151 Mi-17s.
During the visit of the Russian President Vladimir Putin to India in December2012, a contract for additional 42 Su-30MKIs was signed. According to onereport, the total cost of these 42 fighters is estimated to be around $4.3 billion,as these are expected to have better specifications. Rumour has it that theseadditional aircraft were specially configured for nuclear delivery and were to costless than those produced by HAL.
It was $4.5B. And almost $3B went into the Mi-17s.
This time there was a theory that these 12 were some sort of specialized EW aircraft, which is still possible in some ways. Some theorized that it's necessary for a new production line, which is what Ankit is referring to. But the IAF is not interested in more MKIs, due to oversupply, and it's still too early to invest for export.
63000 Cr is the size of the MLU program, not the contract size with Russia. This deal could have elements of whatever's needed from Russia for the MLU. We could assume half is for the MKIs and the other half for MLU. Perhaps a ToT deal for the spares and maintenance of MKIs that were not part of the initial contract. We did the same for the T-90 in 2019; $3.12B for 464 tanks and new technologies, but $1.2B of that was ToT. Or it pays for some new Russian technology they would like to keep secret; ie, specialized EW aircraft.
This is pretty common with deals with Russia. Even our leased SSNs show a different sticker price compared to its actual cost. The first one was less than $700M, the second sub was les than $1B. But the contract prices were $2.5B and $3B resply.
So this deal too is just history repeating itself.